Mark Daniels: Gronk, Solder, and Jonathan Cooper are not on flight to AZ

[Wheelman]

The fear was that guys who have played poorly (Cannon, Fleming/Waddle) in the past would be forced into starting roles should one/both of Vollmer or Solder go down, and that's exactly what has happened.

It's not fair to put Waddle in the played poorly category. He played injured last season. We haven't seen enough of him yet.

 

[ViperGTS]

Last year's losses:

Steelers
Rams
Seahawks

Last year's 30+ point allowed games:

Bengals
Seahawks (twice)

Last year's 25-30 point allowed games:

Steelers

Are you confusing the Cardinals with some other team?

They shouldn't have lost to the Rams or the Steelers with Landry Jones as the QB, if they are so good. The Rams loss was just pathetic. We won't even get into the NFCCG. So yeah we're talking about the same team.

 

[ViperGTS]

It's not fair to put Waddle in the played poorly category. He played injured last season. We haven't seen enough of him yet.

I was impressed with LaW last year when he was healthy.

 

[supafly]

It's not fair to put Waddle in the played poorly category. He played injured last season. We haven't seen enough of him yet.

Well, the fact that he was surpassed on the depth chart for awhile this summer, has had some injury obstacles and couldn't keep a roster spot in Detroit doesn't really set anyone's mind at ease, but yes you're right that he shouldn't necessarily be included in that category of playing poorly like the others.

 

[Deus Irae]

They shouldn't have lost to the Rams or the Steelers with Landry Jones as the QB, if they are so good. The Rams loss was just pathetic. We won't even get into the NFCCG. So yeah we're talking about the same team.

The Rams are a division opponent, and they finished at 7-9, which isn't godawful or anything. Using your argument, the Patriots couldn't have been that good last year, since they lost to the 6-10 Dolphins. And the Cardinals lost the Steelers game because they turned the ball over 3 times to the Steelers 0, while the Patriots lost to the Eagles while only losing the turnover battle 2 to 1, which was every bit as inexcusable, if not more so, than the Cardinals losing to the Steelers. Also, in the past 2 seasons, the Cardinals have the same regular season record as the Patriots (24-8), and they've lost fewer games to sub .500 teams than have the Patriots.

It's the NFL. 16-0 in the regular season has only been done once. Teams have clunker games. That doesn't mean they aren't good/great/elite teams.

 

[Geezer Butler]

You don't understand how deep threat receivers that have to be respected do to a defense do you?

Had they played l If you can get a safety in man to cheat outside to provide help to a CB then that opens up another small window to work underneath. It's football 101. It won't stop the line from being a revolving door, but that sliver of extra space may be a massive hole to a QB like TB.

For Jimmy it may be a sliver. And a sliver at times may be all you need. For what it's worth I feel Mitchell will be a E. Sanders type that will need to be respected. Hopefully we see the difference that makes.

I fully understand what a deep threat WR can do to a defense, but it has f*** all to do with the point I was making above. That "sliver" doesn't matter if you have massive dudes pummeling you immediately after the snap.

I get sick of this call every year to sign a stud receiver for way too much money when that money would go a long way as far as improving depth on the line that seems to be banged up constantly. Not to mention what that would do for the running game.

We don't need an expensive deep threat. I totally agree that a healthy Mitchell is that, and he is right in the locker room. Also, like others have said, we really have yet to see what this oline really has to offer in a real game. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Mitchell out there tomorrow night spreading them out and Jimmy having time to find him.

 

[goheels22002]

You don't understand how deep threat receivers that have to be respected do to a defense do you?

Had they played last years Denver man to man D instead of Seattles zone, they lose the '14 SB. If you can get a safety in man to cheat outside to provide help to a CB then that opens up another small window to work underneath. It's football 101. It won't stop the line from being a revolving door, but that sliver of extra space may be a massive hole to a QB like TB.

For Jimmy it may be a sliver. And a sliver at times may be all you need. For what it's worth I feel Mitchell will be a E. Sanders type that will need to be respected. Hopefully we see the difference that makes.

Here we go again with the deep threat receiver fetish. The biggest problem with quality deep threat guys is that they cost too much money for the return you get. Cover 2 and Cover 3 defenses pretty much negate a big deep threat receiver, and get them worked over at the line.

The game is changing to TEs and possession receivers. Give me 100+ catches from an Edelman or a Welker to keep the chains moving and to keep the defense off the field over a big WR any day.

 

[jboston19]

And I'm "stunned" by the fact you think that. How many offensive linemen do we have to draft before you get comfortable with our OL depth. How many OL FA's do we have to bring aboard before you get comfortable with our OL depth Have you even been watching this off season at all ? We had 2 guys with starting experience at C, we had 6 guys with starting experience at G, and 4 guys with starting experience at OT.

Kline wasn't good enough to make this team (tho given the situation, it would have been nice to have him for this first game) Volmer and Jackson will be out for the first 8 games, and Cooper, Solder, are hurt, and Mason will play injured....if he plays. The fact is that this is the DEEPEST OL we've had in the last decade. It's unfortunate we need to tap into that depth so soon, but **** happens. Better now than in December like last season.

Tackle depth. I love the addition of Cooper and the rookie guards have been great surprises. But they didn't add a single tackle, which is even more surprising considering Vollmer is a FA after this year and Solder after next.

 

[patfanken]

If your point is that our OT depth was improved upon or even addressed, it may be difficult to agree with you.

The fear was that guys who have played poorly (Cannon, Fleming/Waddle) in the past would be forced into starting roles should one/both of Vollmer or Solder go down, and that's exactly what has happened.

As you mention, there was good competition for the interior spots, but only time will tell how those tackles work out. All we can do is hope for the best, but I think it's understandable that people are a bit concerned about the current quality of the position.

Think about it Sup, in the past have the Pats ever had better backups than Cannon Flemming and Waddle? Can anyone even name the OT backups from our superbowl teams.

Please understand, I'm not saying that the guys we have backing up are as good as the guys they are replacing. But they don't suck (relative to other back up tackles around the league). There is a reason why OT's are right up there with QB's and pass rushing DE's as #1 picks. They are very HARD to find. So there WILL be a drop off. No one is denying it. But the issue is how much of a drop off. We shall see tomorrow night.

And BTW- my biggest issue with the kid's post was about his contention that the Pats "did nothing" this off season to build depth, which was a crock

 

[patfanken]

Tackle depth. I love the addition of Cooper and the rookie guards have been great surprises. But they didn't add a single tackle, which is even more surprising considering Vollmer is a FA after this year and Solder after next.

Yeah. but who did you want them to add. They already had Cannon, (whom they obviously like, even if you don't), Waddle, and Flemming. Plus Tuney who was a good T all through college, Kline, and Stork, all who have played OT in the past. How many OT's did you want them to have in camp?

Or are you among those who believe every other JAG in the league is better than the ones we have on our team (BTW- It should be noted that I believe being "just another guy" in the NFL is NOT a pejorative term, since a great majority of the league could be given that moniker.....just sayin') So just WHO should we have brought in that would have been significantly better than what we have?

 

[goheels22002]

Think about it Sup, in the past have the Pats ever had better backups than Cannon Flemming and Waddle? Can anyone even name the OT backups from our superbowl teams.

Please understand, I'm not saying that the guys we have backing up are as good as the guys they are replacing. But they don't suck (relative to other back up tackles around the league). There is a reason why OT's are right up there with QB's and pass rushing DE's as #1 picks. They are very HARD to find. So there WILL be a drop off. No one is denying it. But the issue is how much of a drop off. We shall see tomorrow night.

And BTW- my biggest issue with the kid's post was about his contention that the Pats "did nothing" this off season to build depth, which was a crock

Well. if you won't say the backup OL sucks, I will. There's a dialogue over on the "Opponent Update: Cardinals" thread that gets into it. But a line with Fleming - Thuney - Andrews - Mason - Cannon is nothing compared to a Vollmer - Cooper - Andrews - Mason - Solder line with Gronk on the outside to chip a guy like Chandler Jones on the way into the second level.

I'm not going to sleep tonite. I see Max Lane nightmares and cold sweats in my future.

 

[JMC00]

.

I fully understand what a deep threat WR can do to a defense, but it has f*** all to do with the point I was making above. That "sliver" doesn't matter if you have massive dudes pummeling you immediately after the snap.

I get sick of this call every year to sign a stud receiver for way too much money when that money would go a long way as far as improving depth on the line that seems to be banged up constantly. Not to mention what that would do for the running game.

We don't need an expensive deep threat. I totally agree that a healthy Mitchell is that, and he is right in the locker room. Also, like others have said, we really have yet to see what this oline really has to offer in a real game. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Mitchell out there tomorrow night spreading them out and Jimmy having time to find him.

Agreed.

Had arguably the best deep threat of all-time and didn't win a SB.

Have won 4 SB with the following WRs : Troy Brown, Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten, Brandon LaFell, and Danny Amendola

Yet people continue to pound the table about a deep threat.

The team doesn't need a friggen deep threat. Needs good health and solid OL play.

 

[Mack Herron]

The team doesn't need a friggen deep threat. Needs good health and solid OL play.

This is your optimistic message for the faithful on Sunday?

 

[JMC00]

Well. if you won't say the backup OL sucks, I will. There's a dialogue over on the "Opponent Update: Cardinals" thread that gets into it. But a line with Fleming - Thuney - Andrews - Mason - Cannon is nothing compared to a Vollmer - Cooper - Andrews - Mason - Solder line with Gronk on the outside to chip a guy like Chandler Jones on the way into the second level.

Did you pay attention at all during the preseason? If you did no clue how you are calling Thuney a backup. Kid looked like he belonged and is the starting LG.

 

[jah]

Think about it Sup, in the past have the Pats ever had better backups than Cannon Flemming and Waddle? Can anyone even name the OT backups from our superbowl teams.

Please understand, I'm not saying that the guys we have backing up are as good as the guys they are replacing. But they don't suck (relative to other back up tackles around the league). There is a reason why OT's are right up there with QB's and pass rushing DE's as #1 picks. They are very HARD to find. So there WILL be a drop off. No one is denying it. But the issue is how much of a drop off. We shall see tomorrow night.

And BTW- my biggest issue with the kid's post was about his contention that the Pats "did nothing" this off season to build depth, which was a crock

Really, all I can think of is when we had Solder as the swing guy for a year. I'd also point out that it would be pretty misleading to call Cannon a backup when he'll be starting most if not all season and he started half of last year. Even though he's a backup in that Vollmer would play ahead of him when healthy, Vollmer's health situation is one we can't rely on anymore.

 

[Marqui]

The more I think about it, the gameplan for this game should be shotgun spread hurry-up 3WR sets. With Jenkins out AZ only has one good CB. Attack the 2nd and 3rd CB and let Jimmy get the ball out quick to neutralize the pass rush.

 

[Tuck]

+ one more vote for Waddle. I thought he was pretty good until his shoulder fell out at the end of last season.

 

[patfanken]

Well. if you won't say the backup OL sucks, I will. There's a dialogue over on the "Opponent Update: Cardinals" thread that gets into it. But a line with Fleming - Thuney - Andrews - Mason - Cannon is nothing compared to a Vollmer - Cooper - Andrews - Mason - Solder line with Gronk on the outside to chip a guy like Chandler Jones on the way into the second level.

I'm not going to sleep tonite. I see Max Lane nightmares and cold sweats in my future.

Well take away 3 starters from ANY OL and it won't be the same. Do you really think you are breaking any startling news here? So I concede you have a keen sense of the obvious.

But get back to the original point of my post. The Pats went into this game with plenty of offensive line players either through the draft or FA. The OP's contention that the Pats "did nothing" to create the necessary depth was simply ridiculous.

BTW- not to try and recreate your memories, but Max Lane did a pretty good job that day for 3 quarters, before those 2 sacks when he was handled like a rag doll by a future HOFer. It is one of my pet peeves that OLmen get a bad rap in general. They can beat the DLman 95% of the time and lose 3 out of 60 odd snaps and get crucified. I don't think you'd like to try and do your job when a 95% success rate is deemed a failure.

 

[Deus Irae]

I get sick of this call every year to sign a stud receiver for way too much money when that money would go a long way as far as improving depth on the line that seems to be banged up constantly. Not to mention what that would do for the running game.

I get sick of people setting up false "if/then" statements. Spending on a WR doesn't prevent you from addressing other areas. The Patriots have a basic FA plan. They spend bargain basement money on what seems like a million players, rather than spend big chunks on higher rated players. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, but it's simply not correct to say that you cannot address OL and RB if you sign a high end WR.

 

[Deus Irae]

But get back to the original point of my post. The Pats went into this game with plenty of offensive line players either through the draft or FA. The OP's contention that the Pats "did nothing" to create the necessary depth was simply ridiculous.

Please, tell the class how the OT depth and development situation was addressed.