OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

[Froob]

Kobe's a better all around player. Try watching games instead of just relying on statistics, and you might find that you learn something. James isn't even in Kobe's class. He's not in the class of any of those I listed. He's the next step down, which is why he's not in the top 10.


And I hate Kobe with the fiery heat of a thousand suns.

What? Theres noway Kobe is an all around better player. LeBron is a much better passer, rebounder and defender. And he's a far more efficient scorer. The only area you could say Kobe is better is at scoring in the post because Kobe has GOAT foot work. Kobe is great and an all time great at that but, he played with prime Shaq who at his peak (key word peak) was argumently the greatest player ever. There's a reason LeBron has 3 more MVPs than Kobe.

 

[rochrist]

Russell was apparently a great defender, teammate, leader. I'm giving you all that. I said he wasn't very good offensively. He shot 44% for his career on a stacked team and Wilt shot 54% for his career on lesser teams where he was the focus of every defense. So, I'm not really comparing against eras.

You come back that he had one 30 point game in the playoffs. I mean that's great. But his career offensive numbers aren't very good.

And, What do these rebound figures mean without context? He wasn't even the leading rebounder of his era (Wilt). Could anyone hit shots back then? Since he was the tallest most athletic guy on most nights, why wouldn't he collect a fairly high percentage of such a voluminous amount of bricks? (I note that the Celtics, for example, shot 39% from the floor in 1960, yet still scored 120 points per game--in other words there as a whole lot of bricking going on).

I have read Simmons' reasons why Russell was better than Chamberlain. To me, they are not very compelling, although I will acknowledge that some experts put Russell above Chamberlain and some put him top 5 overall. It is a hot debate in sports, even among those that saw them play, so Russ must have been VERY good defensively to compare with Wilt's staggering numbers.

Wow, 22.9 rebounds vs. 22.5 career averages. Yeah, Wilt certainly put him in his place. I'm tempted to point out that he actually had more than one outstanding offensive game, but even you can't be stupid enough to think that he didn't. The point was, in game 7 of the finals, up against Wilt, who according to you was clearly far superior, he had 30 points and 40 rebounds. Against Wilt. In game 7. Of the finals. And he won. Which is all he ever did. You also seem to think the NBA was made up of midgets back then. No, he quite often wasn't the tallest guy. I already gave you three guys way bigger than him. He was 6'9. The same size as Dave Freaking Cowens.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Exactly. People point to when Pip had to lead the team and seemingly want to base his whole career on that time. As if the Bulls didn't just lose the greatest player ever when Jordan briefly retired. C'mon. Pippen settled into playing the game a certain way and was asked to do way more than he was accustomed to doing. Still, he played extremely well and lead the Bulls in several statistical categories, while winning the All-Star MVP that season. They came within a Hubert Davis missed call in Game 5 from being in the Finals again without Jordan. As I stated, I could go on and on about Pips greatness and why he ABSOLUTELY IS one of the greatest ballers to play. Am I necessarily putting him ahead of LeBron? No. But to devalue his importance in comparison to LeBron is a tragedy and disrespectful to Pip.

Not 100% sure they get by Indy. They were a tough team.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Not 100% sure they get by Indy. They were a tough team.

Yeah, but the Knicks were the more physical match up, if memory serves. I felt if they could withstand that, then I didn't see Indy stopping them. Houston would likely have mopped the floor with them, but who knows . . .

 

[realtime]

Wow, 22.9 rebounds vs. 22.5 career averages. Yeah, Wilt certainly put him in his place. I'm tempted to point out that he actually had more than one outstanding offensive game, but even you can't be stupid enough to think that he did. The point was, in game 7 of the finals, up against Wilt, who according to you was clearly far superior, he had 30 points and 40 rebounds. Against Wilt. In game 7. Of the finals. And he won. Which is all he ever did. You also seem to think the NBA was made up of midgets back then. No, he quite often wasn't the tallest guy. I already gave you three guys way bigger than him. He was 6'9. The same size as Dave Freaking Cowens.

A few more fun facts (keeping in mind that we are talking about two players who are unquestionably top 10 of all time):

1. Dave Cowens has been reported to be at least a full inch shorter than Russell -- I have seen measurements of 6'8 1/2 for Cowens vs. 6'9 5/8 for Russell.

2. Russell and Chamberlain played 142 games against each other over a 10 year period, with Russell winning 85 and Chamberlain 57.

3. Wilt's averages in those games: 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds. Russell's averages: 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds.

4. Chamberlain scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62. Russell's highest scoring game against Chamberlain was 37.

5. Russell won 11 championships to Wilt's 2 (and nine championships to Wilt's one when they were both in the league together).

 

[Froob]

A few more fun facts (keeping in mind that we are talking about two players who are unquestionably top 10 of all time):

1. Dave Cowens has been reported to be at least a full inch shorter than Russell -- I have seen measurements of 6'8 1/2 for Cowens vs. 6'9 5/8 for Russell.

2. Russell and Chamberlain played 142 games against each other over a 10 year period, with Russell winning 85 and Chamberlain 57.

3. Wilt's averages in those games: 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds. Russell's averages: 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds.

4. Chamberlain scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62. Russell's highest scoring game against Chamberlain was 37.

5. Russell won 11 championships to Wilt's 10 (and nine championships to Wilt's one when they were both in the league together).

Not sure if that was a typo but, Wilt only won two.

 

[RobertWeathers]

What? Theres noway Kobe is an all around better player. LeBron is a much better passer, rebounder and defender. And he's a far more efficient scorer. Kobe is great and an all time great at that but, he played with prime Shaq who at his peak (key word peak) was argumently the greatest player ever.

Kobe was better defensively than LeBron. Trust me on that. Quicker on the ball defender. Kobe's quickness and arm length made him better off the ball as well. LeBron is better inside for sure. Kobe took more shots because he could score in different ways and was much more of a jump shooter than LeBron. To say LBJ is better offensively because of that doesn't quite make sense.

Kobe going to 3 straight Finals winning two with the non-Shaq cast was impressive.

Shaq GoAT ? Interesting.

I think of LeBron v Kobe as Shaq vs Jabbar. Different styles but dominating results.

 

[realtime]

Not sure if that was a typo but, Wilt only won two.

yes, fixed. thank you.

 

[Froob]

Kobe was better defensively than LeBron. Trust me on that. Quicker on the ball defender. Kobe's quickness and arm length made him better off the ball as well. LeBron is better inside for sure. Kobe took more shots because he could score in different ways and was much more of a jump shooter than LeBron. To say LBJ is better offensively because of that doesn't quite make sense.

Kobe going to 3 straight Finals winning two with the non-Shaq cast was impressive.

Shaq GoAT ? Interesting.

I think of LeBron v Kobe as Shaq vs Jabbar. Different styles but dominating results.

Not saying Shaq is the GOAT, but during the 3 peat Lakers during his peak he was playing at a level that was argumently the greatest ever. He didn't care enough about the game to maintain such a high peak (it's no wonder Shaq and Kobe fell apart, Kobe is a total maniac during the off season while Shaq...not so much). Kareem should definitely be ranked better all time. Although Shaq was a very good player for a long time his peak wasn't as long as Kareem's. Hell old ass Shaq on the Celtics was balling. Rondo was getting like 15 assists a night. Those 2011 Celts were my favorite team ever when the big 4+shaq were steam rolling teams (never saw Bird and co).

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Pippen was great, but Pippen had the opportunity to carry the Bulls in his absolute prime when Jordan was is in exile and didn't put up the numbers or team accomplishments LeBron did. I have never seen any basketball expert rank Pippen any near Lebron.

He led the Bulls to a 55 win season right after Jordan walked away.
I haven't seen Lebron win any rings without Wade.
These basketball "experts" don't seem to be anything more than NBA marketing hype men.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not saying Shaq is the GOAT, but during the 3 peat Lakers during his peak he was playing at a level that was argumently the greatest ever. He didn't care enough about the game to maintain such a high peak (it's no wonder Shaq and Kobe fell apart, Kobe is a total manic during the off season while Shaq...not so much). Kareem should definitely be ranked better all time. Although Shaq was a very good player for a long time his peak wasn't as long as Kareem's. Hell old ass Shaq on the Celtics was balling. Rondo was getting like 15 assists a night. Those 2011 Celts were my favorite team ever when the big 4+shaq were steam rolling teams (never saw Bird and co).

Ah..Love The Big Shamrock. He did fine. His body was so bruised and battered after he left MIA....

I think if I were to rank GoATs at center

1. Russell (We all know he couldn't score with those guys. More rings than fingers....)
2. Jabbar
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Olajuwon

 

[realtime]

Ah..Love The Big Shamrock. He did fine. His body was so bruised and battered after he left MIA....

I think if I were to rank GoATs at center

1. Russell (We all know he couldn't score with those guys. More rings than fingers....)
2. Jabbar
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Olajuwon

I agree with this list, if not the order.

As a sort of special honorable mention, I would add that Sabonis and Yao may well have cracked this list had they each somehow managed a full, reasonably healthy NBA career. They were both unstoppable beasts during their (relatively limited) healthy primes.

 

[letekro]

A few more fun facts (keeping in mind that we are talking about two players who are unquestionably top 10 of all time):

1. Dave Cowens has been reported to be at least a full inch shorter than Russell -- I have seen measurements of 6'8 1/2 for Cowens vs. 6'9 5/8 for Russell.

2. Russell and Chamberlain played 142 games against each other over a 10 year period, with Russell winning 85 and Chamberlain 57.

3. Wilt's averages in those games: 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds. Russell's averages: 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds.

4. Chamberlain scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62. Russell's highest scoring game against Chamberlain was 37.

5. Russell won 11 championships to Wilt's 2 (and nine championships to Wilt's one when they were both in the league together).

I am hesitant to give much credence to the championships with that large of a statistical discrepancy. It would be like saying Terry Bradshaw was a better quarterback than Dan Marino. I know some people make that argument, but I don't buy it.

 

[Kontradiction]

Who do we have winning tonight? For me, it depends on which quarter LeBron starts moping by. If it's the second quarter, like it was on Thursday, Warriors by double digits. If it's in the third or fourth quarters, Warriors by 5 or less. If he doesn't mope at all, Cavs win.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree with this list, if not the order.

As a sort of special honorable mention, I would add that Sabonis and Yao may well have cracked this list had they each somehow managed a full, reasonably healthy NBA career. They were both unstoppable beasts during their (relatively limited) healthy primes.

I put some thought in the order. Always debatable up or down.

Sabonis was GREAT. Hes Jack Sikma when he was with SEA only could block shots, defend, hit 3s and pass at an elite level. By the time he got to Portland he was 1/2 of what he was w/ USSR and LIT.

While we are on the topic of great centers who had injuries cut short, put Bill Walton #1 on that list. Check him out on the NBA.com when he was with Portland. Dominant. Another guy who was 50% of what he was when we had him here in 86.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Who do we have winning tonight? For me, it depends on which quarter LeBron starts moping by. If it's the second quarter, like it was on Thursday, Warriors by double digits. If it's in the third or fourth quarters, Warriors by 5 or less. If he doesn't mope at all, Cavs win.

LeMope will play fine. Just not at a dominant level.

GS 110 CLE 102

 

[rochrist]

I am hesitant to give much credence to the championships with that large of a statistical discrepancy. It would be like saying Terry Bradshaw was a better quarterback than Dan Marino. I know some people make that argument, but I don't buy it.

That's ridiculous.

 

[letekro]

That's ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous to say it's ridiculous that a guy that statistically dominated the other to the tune of doubling him up in points, +5 rpg, +10 FG% was actually the better player.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I am hesitant to give much credence to the championships with that large of a statistical discrepancy. It would be like saying Terry Bradshaw was a better quarterback than Dan Marino. I know some people make that argument, but I don't buy it.

If you needed a leader in the huddle players would walk through fire for and win a game that had to be won or death becomes of them who do you choose?

Quarterbacking is not all about yards and TDs.

Same reason you pick Russell over Wilt

Brady over Manning

Larry, Michael, Magic or Kobe over LeBron

Knowing how and when to win is the greatest, most unappreciated intangible in sports.

There is a reason Robert Horry has 7 rings and its not because he could score.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I am hesitant to give much credence to the championships with that large of a statistical discrepancy. It would be like saying Terry Bradshaw was a better quarterback than Dan Marino. I know some people make that argument, but I don't buy it.

So by that logic, you'd take Manning over Brady?