OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

[letekro]

If you need that explained, you know nothing at all about basketball.

I don't. I'm a visitor from outer space who only understands statistics. Please explain to me why he was better.

 

[rochrist]

I don't. I'm a visitor from outer space who only understands statistics. Please explain to me why he was better.

I expect all you do understand is statistics and you're young enough that you think stats translate perfectly across 50-60 years. But ok, whatever. Russell averaged 18 points and 29 rebounds per game in Finals deciding games. He twice had 40 rebounds in a Finals game. And he did it at 6'9. He wasn't a 7 footer. He grabbed 30+ rebounds in 15 straight Finals games. In the 1962-63 Finals against Chamberlain's Lakers, in the series deciding game double OT game 7 he had 30 points and 40 rebounds. 11-0 in NBA Finals. If they had tracked blocked shots back then, he'd own every record in that category. Bill Russell was the definition of a team leader and winner. LeBron is a diva who quits on his team when things don't go his way.

PS: I dare you to call Walt Bellamy a 6'7 white guy.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Hah gotta love Bird, he's a straight shooter. But, I'll still take LeBron and the stats back it up. I'm not a Kobe hater just LeBron is much more efficient (especially super friends era LeBron he had a year where he shot like 57% I don't think Kobe has ever topped 50) and is much more of a team player. I'd still take Kobe on my team any day. Him and KG would have been quite the pair of God forbid Lakers had beaten us to him.

If KG went to LA they would have won in 08 and 2010 and maybe 2011.

In terms of the actual player, its a toss-up.

I take Kobe over LeBron because he has the rings and I think hes better in the clutch.

With that said he is a loathsome human being and crappy teammate.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ! Was there ever a more overrated player in the history of any professional sport than Lebron James?
I personally think Dr. J was a much better player and I never hear his name come up in any "greatest" discussions. Best historical comparison to Lebron would be Scottie Pippen in the 90's (and frankly, I think he's better than Lebron as well).

 

[realtime]

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ! Was there ever a more overrated player in the history of any professional sport than Lebron James?
I personally think Dr. J was a much better player and I never hear his name come up in any "greatest" discussions. Best historical comparison to Lebron would be Scottie Pippen in the 90's (and frankly, I think he's better than Lebron as well).

Joe Namath and Pete Maravich, to name 2.

If the Bulls had had LeBron instead of Pippen, they would have fo' fo' fo'd their way to every title.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ! Was there ever a more overrated player in the history of any professional sport than Lebron James?
I personally think Dr. J was a much better player and I never hear his name come up in any "greatest" discussions. Best historical comparison to Lebron would be Scottie Pippen in the 90's (and frankly, I think he's better than Lebron as well).

Pip is my favorite basketball player of all-time. Tread carefully, Mossed.

LOL

 

[PatsBoy12]

Joe Namath and Pete Maravich, to name 2.

If the Bulls had had LeBron instead of Pippen, they would have fo' fo' fo'd their way to every title.

I don't know what "fo'" means, but in context I'm assuming you mean they would have won more with LeBron than Pip. Man, if you have enough time, I can tell you all the reasons that this notion is likely an incorrect one.

 

[Deus Irae]

Kobe is not ahead of LeBron. Kobe is great but, I'd easily take LeBron any day. Much more of a team player and a lot more efficient scorer.

Kobe's about a million miles ahead of LeBron.

 

[realtime]

I don't know what "fo'" means, but in context I'm assuming you mean they would have won more with LeBron than Pip. Man, if you have enough time, I can tell you all the reasons that this notion is likely an incorrect one.

'Fo was Moses Malone's way of saying a 4-o playoff sweep.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Pippen. Sulking on the bench while Kukoc hit the GW in the playoffs against the Knicks in 93-94 followed by the team flirting with .500 for most of the season in 94-95 before Jordan rescued them pretty much soured me for good on Pippen's legacy.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

Man, you really get off on trying to rub Boston fans noses in sh.t don't you.

Whether you are right or wrong You really seem to be trying to play Shaughnessy on this board. Its like you are just trolling for fights. Its one thing to believe Jordan or Jabbar are the greatest it's another altogether to basically trash Bill Russell, which that post did.

 

[letekro]

Man, you really get off on trying to rub Boston fans noses in sh.t don't you.

Whether you are right or wrong You really seem to be trying to play Shaughnessy on this board. Its like you are just trolling for fights. Its one thing to believe Jordan or Jabbar are the greatest it's another altogether to basically trash Bill Russell, which that post did.

A lot of times, people just repeat the stuff they've heard without really fact-checking it or analyzing it (and that goes for deflategate as well, which explains why I've been the turd in that punchbowl as well). This bothers me. People (often from Boston, but it is more widespread than that) often claim Russell is top 5 or the GOAT without ever having seen him play, based primarily on team accomplishments. His stats, especially given the lack of talent at his position during his time, call his exalted position into question. From highlights, you can tell he was fantastically athletic for his time, and all agree he was a great teammate and leader. Apparently, though, Russ's offensive game was pretty weak overall. Based on that, it seems unlikely that he deserves to be among the very greatest players of all time.

 

[letekro]

Kobe's about a million miles ahead of LeBron.

I love Kobe. I love his attitude on the court. But, the only thing that he is better than LeBron at is hitting low percentage shots. LeBron is better at just about every other basketball skill:

handle
defense
rebounding
passing
offensive efficiency

 

[rochrist]

A lot of times, people just repeat the stuff they've heard without really fact-checking it or analyzing it (and that goes for deflategate as well, which explains why I've been the turd in that punchbowl as well). This bothers me. People (often from Boston, but it is more widespread than that) often claim Russell is top 5 or the GOAT without ever having seen him play, based primarily on team accomplishments. His stats, especially given the lack of talent at his position during his time, call his exalted position into question. From highlights, you can tell he was fantastically athletic for his time, and all agree he was a great teammate and leader. Apparently, though, Russ's offensive game was pretty weak overall. Based on that, it seems unlikely that he deserves to be among the very greatest players of all time.

Yeah, 30 points 40 rebounds against Wilt Chamberlin in game 7 of the NBA Finals is definitely weak. What was I thinking? You talk about lack of talent at his position, Russell played against Wilt 142 times in 10 years. He played against Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond.

Again, you're somebody who hasn't any idea what the game was like then trying to make it all about pieces of paper.

 

[Deus Irae]

I love Kobe. I love his attitude on the court. But, the only thing that he is better than LeBron at is hitting low percentage shots. LeBron is better at just about every other basketball skill:

handle
defense
rebounding
passing
offensive efficiency

Kobe's a better all around player. Try watching games instead of just relying on statistics, and you might find that you learn something. James isn't even in Kobe's class. He's not in the class of any of those I listed. He's the next step down, which is why he's not in the top 10.


And I hate Kobe with the fiery heat of a thousand suns.

 

[letekro]

I expect all you do understand is statistics and you're young enough that you think stats translate perfectly across 50-60 years. But ok, whatever. Russell averaged 18 points and 29 rebounds per game in Finals deciding games. He twice had 40 rebounds in a Finals game. And he did it at 6'9. He wasn't a 7 footer. He grabbed 30+ rebounds in 15 straight Finals games. In the 1962-63 Finals against Chamberlain's Lakers, in the series deciding game double OT game 7 he had 30 points and 40 rebounds. 11-0 in NBA Finals. If they had tracked blocked shots back then, he'd own every record in that category. Bill Russell was the definition of a team leader and winner. LeBron is a diva who quits on his team when things don't go his way.

PS: I dare you to call Walt Bellamy a 6'7 white guy.

Russell was apparently a great defender, teammate, leader. I'm giving you all that. I said he wasn't very good offensively. He shot 44% for his career on a stacked team and Wilt shot 54% for his career on lesser teams where he was the focus of every defense. So, I'm not really comparing against eras.

You come back that he had one 30 point game in the playoffs. I mean that's great. But his career offensive numbers aren't very good.

And, What do these rebound figures mean without context? He wasn't even the leading rebounder of his era (Wilt). Could anyone hit shots back then? Since he was the tallest most athletic guy on most nights, why wouldn't he collect a fairly high percentage of such a voluminous amount of bricks? (I note that the Celtics, for example, shot 39% from the floor in 1960, yet still scored 120 points per game--in other words there as a whole lot of bricking going on).

I have read Simmons' reasons why Russell was better than Chamberlain. To me, they are not very compelling, although I will acknowledge that some experts put Russell above Chamberlain and some put him top 5 overall. It is a hot debate in sports, even among those that saw them play, so Russ must have been VERY good defensively to compare with Wilt's staggering numbers.

 

[letekro]

Kobe's a better all around player. Try watching games instead of just relying on statistics. James isn't even in Kobe's class. He's not in the class of any of those I listed.

If you say so, Deus.

 

[letekro]

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ! Was there ever a more overrated player in the history of any professional sport than Lebron James?
I personally think Dr. J was a much better player and I never hear his name come up in any "greatest" discussions. Best historical comparison to Lebron would be Scottie Pippen in the 90's (and frankly, I think he's better than Lebron as well).

Pippen was great, but Pippen had the opportunity to carry the Bulls in his absolute prime when Jordan was is in exile and didn't put up the numbers or team accomplishments LeBron did. I have never seen any basketball expert rank Pippen any near Lebron.

 

[PatsBoy12]

'Fo was Moses Malone's way of saying a 4-o playoff sweep.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Pippen. Sulking on the bench while Kukoc hit the GW in the playoffs against the Knicks in 93-94 followed by the team flirting with .500 for most of the season in 94-95 before Jordan rescued them pretty much soured me for good on Pippen's legacy.

I respect your view, and we will have to agree to disagree because his play transformed series' for the Bulls. Many historians say it was his play that turned the series around completely against the Lakers, for instance. But yeah, he did sulk. And I hear you on the winning percentage, even though there were other factors to just Pip's lack of leadership, which I presume is what you're getting at.

I guess this argument could go on forever and it would probably most likely end up being one of those subjective things with no real right or wrong answers. The problem is we'd be comparing two somewhat similar players (stylistically) who played in different eras and were asked to do different things. One is also a physical freak, while the other was more-or-less groomed to play ball after never really playing as a young boy. And again, the game is just drastically different now in a new era. LeBron's historical significance will likely dwarf Pip's because he'll have gaudier stats and more highlight reel material. And maybe that is precisely why he'll deserve it, but Pip's importance to those Bulls teams of the 90's cannot, AND SHOULD NOT, be understated or devalued. Jordan didn't win without Pippen as much as Pippen didn't win without Jordan.

Disclaimer: I am not making the case that Pippen is better than LeBron

 

[RobertWeathers]

And I respect your view, and we will have to agree to disagree because his play transformed series' for the Bulls. Many historians say it was his play that turned the series around completely against the Lakers, for instance. But yeah, he did sulk. And I hear you on the winning percentage, even though there were other factors to just Pip's lack of leadership, which I presume is what you're getting at.

I guess this argument could go on forever and it would probably most likely end up being one of those subjective things with no real right or wrong answers. The problem is we'd be comparing two somewhat similar players (stylistically) who played in different eras and were asked to do different things. One is also a physical freak, while the other was more-or-less groomed to play ball after never really playing as a young boy. And again, the game is just drastically different now in a new era. LeBron's historical significance will likely dwarf Pip's because he'll have gaudier stats and more highlight reel material. And maybe that is precisely why he'll deserve it, but Pip's importance to those Bulls' teams of the 90's cannot, AND SHOULD NOT, be understated or devalued. Jordan didn't win without Pippen as much as Pippen didn't win without Jordan.

Disclaimer: I am not making the case that Pippen is better than LeBron

There is a reason Scottie Pippen is in the HoF and was on the Dream Team. During the 6 title run he was a 20/7/6 guy and elite defensively. If he played LeBron now he'd give him fits.

Jordan abused Pippen his first couple of years and it paid off to make him tougher than tough. The downside is that it didn't allow him to become a true leader. He was always in defer-mode. McHale was the same way with Larry. Sometimes its a good thing. Sometimes not.

Either way, no Pippen, no 6 rings for MJ

 

[PatsBoy12]

There is a reason Scottie Pippen is in the HoF and was on the Dream Team. During the 6 title run he was a 20/7/6 guy and elite defensively. If he played LeBron now he'd give him fits.

Jordan abused Pippen his first couple of years and it paid off to make him tougher than tough. The downside is that it didn't allow him to become a true leader. He was always in defer-mode. McHale was the same way with Larry. Sometimes its a good thing. Sometimes not.

Either way, no Pippen, no 6 rings for MJ

Exactly. People point to when Pip had to lead the team and seemingly want to base his whole career on that time. As if the Bulls didn't just lose the greatest player ever when Jordan briefly retired. C'mon. Pippen settled into playing the game a certain way and was asked to do way more than he was accustomed to doing. Still, he played extremely well and lead the Bulls in several statistical categories, while winning the All-Star MVP that season. They came within a Hubert Davis missed call in Game 5 from being in the Finals again without Jordan. As I stated, I could go on and on about Pips greatness and why he ABSOLUTELY IS one of the greatest ballers to play. Am I necessarily putting him ahead of LeBron? No. But to devalue his importance in comparison to LeBron is a tragedy and disrespectful to Pip.