The Offensive Line conundrum

[Ring 6]

Mankins is the Pats best interior OL. I don't think he's in decline at all. It might be a smarter idea to draft a RG this year and move Connolly back to C. I'm higher on the centers than most people are but it's been rightfully pointed out in the draft forum that the centers in this draft don't have the great vertical jumps, which seems to be something the Pats look for. Either way, Connolly in 2011 > Wendell in 2012, 2013 and is better at center than at guard. Draft a mauler RG and kick him back into the C spot so they don't have to take a chance of having to pay Wendell that ridiculous contract he just got if he somehow gets the playing time.

The Patriots look for Cs with great vertical jumps?
Do they also look for ones that had paper routes as children, or have a blond haired sister?

 

[Ring 6]

They could select a Guard and have a camp battle between Wendell, Connolly, and Cave for Center.

That makes sense to me, but how much of a camp battle can you have on the OL these days when you rarely have contact in practice?

 

[patfanken]

Either way, Connolly in 2011 > Wendell in 2012, 2013 and is better at center than at guard. Draft a mauler RG and kick him back into the C spot so they don't have to take a chance of having to pay Wendell that ridiculous contract he just got if he somehow gets the playing time.

Just a couple of thoughts. Could it be that in 2011 Connolly looked better because he had Mankins, playing at a higher level than he showed last year, on one side, and Brian Waters, who was a first team all pro, on the other? In 2013 Wendell had to play with a diminished Mankins and Connolly who isn't going to make anyone forget Brian Waters.

While I would agree that Connolly looked better (to our eyes) in 2011 than Wendell did in 2013, I would strongly dispute any claim that includes 2012. Connolly had every chance to establish himself as the 2012 starting C and failed to beat out Wendell in a direct competition.

I hope you are right and Mankins was playing hurt or just had a bad year. Because if he plays this season up to the money he's making, it will go a long way to improving the interior OL play right off the bat. Moving Cannon to RG will make it even better for whoever winds up playing C.

I keep hoping that one of the mediots will ask Bill in the next few weeks his plans this season for Cannon. I don't want to keep fantasizing about a move that BB might never make.

 

[Ring 6]

Just a couple of thoughts. Could it be that in 2011 Connolly looked better because he had Mankins, playing at a higher level than he showed last year, on one side, and Brian Waters, who was a first team all pro, on the other? In 2013 Wendell had to play with a diminished Mankins and Connolly who isn't going to make anyone forget Brian Waters.

While I would agree that Connolly looked better (to our eyes) in 2011 than Wendell did in 2013, I would strongly dispute any claim that includes 2012. Connolly had every chance to establish himself as the 2012 starting C and failed to beat out Wendell in a direct competition.

I hope you are right and Mankins was playing hurt or just had a bad year. Because if he plays this season up to the money he's making, it will go a long way to improving the interior OL play right off the bat. Moving Cannon to RG will make it even better for whoever winds up playing C.

I keep hoping that one of the mediots will ask Bill in the next few weeks his plans this season for Cannon. I don't want to keep fantasizing about a move that BB might never make.

Connolly was the RG in 2012, he couldn't play both positions

 

[manxman2601]

The Patriots look for Cs with great vertical jumps?
Do they also look for ones that had paper routes as children, or have a blond haired sister?

The Patriots look for offensive linemen with very good vertical jumps. That's a matter of fact. Whether that applies strictly to centers can be questioned purely because of the small sample size. However to ignore the correlation between the Patriots drafting offensive linemen and their vertical jumps would mean ignoring a fair amount of empirical data.

 

[Sicilian]

Just a couple of thoughts. Could it be that in 2011 Connolly looked better because he had Mankins, playing at a higher level than he showed last year, on one side, and Brian Waters, who was a first team all pro, on the other? In 2013 Wendell had to play with a diminished Mankins and Connolly who isn't going to make anyone forget Brian Waters.

While I would agree that Connolly looked better (to our eyes) in 2011 than Wendell did in 2013, I would strongly dispute any claim that includes 2012. Connolly had every chance to establish himself as the 2012 starting C and failed to beat out Wendell in a direct competition.

I hope you are right and Mankins was playing hurt or just had a bad year. Because if he plays this season up to the money he's making, it will go a long way to improving the interior OL play right off the bat. Moving Cannon to RG will make it even better for whoever winds up playing C.

I keep hoping that one of the mediots will ask Bill in the next few weeks his plans this season for Cannon. I don't want to keep fantasizing about a move that BB might never make.

It's sort of a chicken and the egg question in some ways. I would say last year that Solder wasn't as good as we expected going into the season, so was it that Mankins was diminished, or was he sandwiched between a young LT still learning the ropes and a Wendell who had regressed back to his norm? It's so hard to judge individual OL players, because so much depends on how well they work together and how much they trust the guy(s) next to them.

 

[manxman2601]

I think people are ignoring the fact that the receiving corps was much weaker last year. Brady's inability to get the ball out quickly in comparison to previous years has to be a factor in weaker offensive line play last year surely?

 

[Ring 6]

The Patriots look for offensive linemen with very good vertical jumps. That's a matter of fact. Whether that applies strictly to centers can be questioned purely because of the small sample size. However to ignore the correlation between the Patriots drafting offensive linemen and their vertical jumps would mean ignoring a fair amount of empirical data.

Correlation and causation are 2 very different things.

 

[manxman2601]

Correlation and causation are 2 very different things.

Not in this case.

 

[Kontradiction]

The Patriots look for offensive linemen with very good vertical jumps. That's a matter of fact. Whether that applies strictly to centers can be questioned purely because of the small sample size. However to ignore the correlation between the Patriots drafting offensive linemen and their vertical jumps would mean ignoring a fair amount of empirical data.

I wonder if this changes now that Scar is retired. There are a couple of physical specimens at center in the draft this year that would be instant upgrades to Wendell in the strength department whose VJ's would normally take them off the Pats list. I mocked Stork and I'm liking him more and more every day. The only thing that concerns me about him is the FSU didn't see a whole lot of exotic defensive fronts in the 2013 season given the fact that they were so worried about Winston's athleticism.

 

[unoriginal]

The way Wendell has been handled by the Pats mystifies me. They let him test free agency which suggests he wasn't highly valued, then they bring him back on a two-year deal that isn't exactly bargain-basement cheap. The frustrating thing about his play is how he gets dominated physically, but he must be considered reliable in certain ways (durability, making line calls, shotgun snapping). Maybe he can step up his game this year.

I need to educate myself on this guy.

The Pats often let mid-level FAs test the waters, set their market, and then the Pats decide whether or not they want to sign that guy for that price.

 

[manxman2601]

I wonder if this changes now that Scar is retired. There are a couple of physical specimens at center in the draft this year that would be instant upgrades to Wendell in the strength department whose VJ's would normally take them off the Pats list. I mocked Stork and I'm liking him more and more every day. The only thing that concerns me about him is the FSU didn't see a whole lot of exotic defensive fronts in the 2013 season given the fact that they were so worried about Winston's athleticism.

Maybe. I think Patchick could be right when she notes that there is more to the play of a center than pure physical ability. It's one of the more cerebral positions on the team. That's also a reason why there's no guarantee that there's anyone better in this draft than Wendell.

 

[OhExaulted1]

The Patriots look for offensive linemen with very good vertical jumps. That's a matter of fact. Whether that applies strictly to centers can be questioned purely because of the small sample size. However to ignore the correlation between the Patriots drafting offensive linemen and their vertical jumps would mean ignoring a fair amount of empirical data.

Sounds more like coincidence. Does this apply to long snappers as well? Tit's on a Bull if you ask me.

 

[patsfan-1982]

I would not mind if they Draft David Yankey, in the 2th to play RG or Travis Swanson, in the 2th to play center if I had to pick one I would take Swanson I think he will be a pro bowler at center in a year or two

 

[Don Kipines]

Draft needs don't always line up with draft opportunity. The Pats pretty consistently go after the best talent available, especially with the high picks.

So even if our top needs are interior OL and DL, that hardly means the Pats will go there in the draft. They've covered themselves so that they could line up tomorrow if they had to, even without a draft. That gives them the freedom to go after exceptional athletes on either side of the ball, which seems to be their MO in early rounds lately.

This year it doesn't look like there are truly exceptional talents at guard or center who will be there for the Pats. There are no Larry Warford types up high in this draft. If they go out of their way to draft guards, centers, and nose tackles, they might let great talent slip away.

The Pats should just take the best guy at any position. Maybe it's someone like Ryan Shazier, who (inexplicably it seems to me) is being mocked in our range. It worked last year with Jamie Collins, worked with Solder, Chandler Jones. They can develop young players for the line, the same way they developed Wendell, Connolly, etc.

 

[IllegalContact]

A stud center is needed to replace Wendell in the starting lineup. Take care of that and I'm fine with the rest.

a stud at every position would be even better

 

[patfanken]

Connolly was the RG in 2012, he couldn't play both positions

Couldn't resist a shot at criticism, Andy? It was pretty clear that I was talking about the 2011 season. Sorry that my typo confused you.

 

[OhExaulted1]

You've done some research and you've come to that conclusion then? I'm interested in your break down. Where do you think the cut off is? Which are the players that failed to live up to the yardstick? I'm interested to know why you think it's mere coincidence,

Leapin' Lineman! I guess I didn't realize how critical this seemingly benign correlation is. Please, indulge us. I promise to jump for joy!

 

[Huckleberry1]

Leapin' Lineman! I guess I didn't realize how critical this seemingly benign correlation is. Please, indulge us. I promise to jump for joy!

First I have heard of it but i am guessing it is like the 3 cone for certain skill positions in that they are looking for prospects with good agility and change of direction abilities. in terms of the high jump it is probably that they are looking for centers with good explosion and good feet and there is a correlation between high jump and explosion as they measure it. I doubt it is a dealbreaker by any means but it probably one of the measurables they pay attention to when evaluating them.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I think they want to upgrade from Wendell but the opportunity wasn't there right now, and status quo is better than getting weaker at the position. If they can upgrade in the draft it would be a great thing because wendell and Connolly while decent are not going to be dominant interior OL, and while they hold up most of the time they struggle against really good DL's. I would still rather see them go with Connolly at C and cannon at RG until they can upgrade at C but the coaches apparently don't see it that way. maybe there will be a change with Scar stepping down.