The Offensive Line conundrum

[patfanken]

Some think that we need immediate help at the interior OL positions, and some don't. Its a very interesting discussion. In fact so interesting that it was beginning to derail the back up DE thread and a big enough issue to deserve its own. If its possible some mod should merge the couple of pages off that DE thread on to this one.

Here are the 3 main positions.

1. The Pats are in pretty good shape at OL with all the starters from last year back and 2 solid back ups in Cannon and Kline.

2. The Pats are in bad shape on the OL, especially in the interior positions. Mankins is in decline, Wendell is a sieve, and Connolly is useless. We need immediate help at multiple positions.

3. Move Cannon to RG, let Wendell and Connolly battle it out for the starting C position, with the winner keeping his roster spot, and draft a C in the 3rd or 4th rounds who will eventually be better than either of them. Then add some low cost additional linemen to battle with the incumbents for the back up jobs .

Let the discussion continue....

 

[bishbash]

I still find it interesting that at his retirement event, "Scar" mentioned that the Pat's D-line had bigger needs.

 

[Sicilian]

I still find it interesting that at his retirement event, "Scar" mentioned that the Pat's D-line had bigger needs.

Scar doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would try to pass the blame on his way out the door after so many years with the team. And regardless of how he meant it, if he'd said, "Yeah, they need more talent on the OL," it would be construed as, "Don't blame me for the pressure on Brady, I had nothing to work with."

 

[BradyManny]

I don't think it's a question of whether the OL's play was satisfactory or not last year. It wasn't. It was a main reason we went down vs. Denver.

The question is are the alternatives out there better, and can we affordably acquire alternatives with the money and draft capital we have.

The answer might be no, which people are then going to wrongly assume means Belichick was content with the OL play last year. That is not a correct leap. Plenty of times, we've gone into seasons with subpar players at a position simply because the alternatives did not fit, for one reason or another.

We looked at Shelly Smith, couldn't get him. Wendell as a 6th or 7th OL is fine provided it's the cheaper contract we signed him to and not the horrendous one first reported. We're in OK shape. We'll win games with this line. I think we'd struggle again in the playoffs. But we've reached a certain level which we could go into the season with.

But if we add via the draft and create some competition, we'll be in much better shape.

 

[Tunescribe]

A stud center is needed to replace Wendell in the starting lineup. Take care of that and I'm fine with the rest.

 

[Kontradiction]

Mankins is the Pats best interior OL. I don't think he's in decline at all. It might be a smarter idea to draft a RG this year and move Connolly back to C. I'm higher on the centers than most people are but it's been rightfully pointed out in the draft forum that the centers in this draft don't have the great vertical jumps, which seems to be something the Pats look for. Either way, Connolly in 2011 > Wendell in 2012, 2013 and is better at center than at guard. Draft a mauler RG and kick him back into the C spot so they don't have to take a chance of having to pay Wendell that ridiculous contract he just got if he somehow gets the playing time.

 

[patfanken]

A stud center is needed to replace Wendell in the starting lineup. Take care of that and I'm fine with the rest.

That's fine, but stud C's who can start right away are usually taken in the first 30 picks. Sure there have been other C's who have been drafted later and wound up being "studs", but they usually take a few years to develop. What about now.

Mack was the answer, but he wasn't available. Who out there was better suited to come in and be better than the winner of a Wendel/Connolly competition? Also I think a lot of the ;negative impressions that we are getting spring from just one game. The last one. The fact is you just can't allow one game to dictate your overall plan.

Last season, the Broncos had the BEST OL in the NFL as far as protecting their passer. The best by far. Yet in one game, and even thought they ended up giving just one sack, they looked just as bad as the Pats OL the week before.

Now I have no reason why what was such an impenetrable force the week before, suddenly became a sieve one week later. It wasn't just the DL that was the reason. That DL had fewer sacks than ours during the regular season. Plus Denver had faced good DL's over the course of the season? Did what Seattle did confuse them? Did the Bronco's tip something off. Did that great Seattle secondary make him hold the ball a second more?(IIRC our D wasn't doing a bad job until Dennard and Talib got hurt) Or was it just a bad day for Manning and his boys?

Now I'd love to upgrade the C and RG positions. Personally I think Cannon would be an instant upgrade over Connolly, but up to now BB has disagreed. . And outside of Mack, there was nothing out there that I perceived to be that much better than what we got back in Wendell.

The draft might be an answer, but we aren't likely to take one in the first 2 rounds, even if there is one worthy of that high a pick, and after that I have to assume that even if that player eventually usurps Wendell, it won't be THIS year. THAT's why this is such a "conundrum" There are no easy fixes. Well actually there is. The players who didn't complete their assignments, simply have to do better

 

[JMC00]

The draft might be an answer, but we aren't likely to take one in the first 2 rounds, even if there is one worthy of that high a pick, and after that I have to assume that even if that player eventually usurps Wendell, it won't be THIS year.

How do you know they won't they won't draft one in the first two rounds? And if Wendell is as bad as everyone says then any of the top 5 centers in the draft should beat him out for the job.

 

[Kontradiction]

How do you know they won't they won't draft one in the first two rounds? And if Wendell is as bad as everyone says then any of the top 5 centers in the draft should beat him out for the job.

They may, but it would be a very bad reach as there isn't a center in the draft that is worthy of being selected in rounds 1-2.

 

[Froob]

Mankins is the Pats best interior OL. I don't think he's in decline at all. It might be a smarter idea to draft a RG this year and move Connolly back to C. I'm higher on the centers than most people are but it's been rightfully pointed out in the draft forum that the centers in this draft don't have the great vertical jumps, which seems to be something the Pats look for. Either way, Connolly in 2011 > Wendell in 2012, 2013 and is better at center than at guard. Draft a mauler RG and kick him back into the C spot so they don't have to take a chance of having to pay Wendell that ridiculous contract he just got if he somehow gets the playing time.

Huh? Why would this matter? Or did you not mean this literally?

 

[goheels22002]

To me there is no "conundrum" whatsoever. In the 2014 draft, the Patriots OL is need 1a, and DL is 1b. It's not so much because the talent isn't there, it's the age of the veteran linemen on both sides of the ball.

Connolly, Mankins and Vollmer are all 30 or older on opening day. A C/G or G/T who can come in and take some snaps in his rookie year is needed. Vince Wilfork and Tommy Kelly are looking at the end of their careers, especially if either goes down again with a season-ending injury. The DL depth is better in my estimation than the OL.

The Patriots should take the best available interior lineman with the first selection and go to the other side of the ball with the second pick. A lot of people agree:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/1100823-draft-simulator.html

 

[Jimke]

How do you know they won't they won't draft one in the first two rounds? And if Wendell is as bad as everyone says then any of the top 5 centers in the draft should beat him out for the job.

The Patriots may already have a top five center on their team in Braxston Cave. This year, he will have a full offseason and training camp to develop.

 

[Kontradiction]

Huh? Why would this matter? Or did you not mean this literally?

Several posters in the draft forum have made a correlation between VJ's and the O-Linemen the Pats tend to draft. Check it out.

 

[JMC00]

They may, but it would be a very bad reach as there isn't a center in the draft that is worthy of being selected in rounds 1-2.

They could select a Guard and have a camp battle between Wendell, Connolly, and Cave for Center.

 

[Froob]

Several posters in the draft forum have made a correlation between VJ's and the O-Linemen the Pats tend to draft. Check it out.

Intriguing, I'll have to take a look.

 

[Brady6]

Joel Bitonio
Bryan Stork

:rocker:

 

[Tunescribe]

That's fine, but stud C's who can start right away are usually taken in the first 30 picks. Sure there have been other C's who have been drafted later and wound up being "studs", but they usually take a few years to develop. What about now.

Mack was the answer, but he wasn't available. Who out there was better suited to come in and be better than the winner of a Wendel/Connolly competition? Also I think a lot of the ;negative impressions that we are getting spring from just one game. The last one. The fact is you just can't allow one game to dictate your overall plan.

Last season, the Broncos had the BEST OL in the NFL as far as protecting their passer. The best by far. Yet in one game, and even thought they ended up giving just one sack, they looked just as bad as the Pats OL the week before.

Now I have no reason why what was such an impenetrable force the week before, suddenly became a sieve one week later. It wasn't just the DL that was the reason. That DL had fewer sacks than ours during the regular season. Plus Denver had faced good DL's over the course of the season? Did what Seattle did confuse them? Did the Bronco's tip something off. Did that great Seattle secondary make him hold the ball a second more?(IIRC our D wasn't doing a bad job until Dennard and Talib got hurt) Or was it just a bad day for Manning and his boys?

Now I'd love to upgrade the C and RG positions. Personally I think Cannon would be an instant upgrade over Connolly, but up to now BB has disagreed. . And outside of Mack, there was nothing out there that I perceived to be that much better than what we got back in Wendell.

The draft might be an answer, but we aren't likely to take one in the first 2 rounds, even if there is one worthy of that high a pick, and after that I have to assume that even if that player eventually usurps Wendell, it won't be THIS year. THAT's why this is such a "conundrum" There are no easy fixes. Well actually there is. The players who didn't complete their assignments, simply have to do better

So in summation, you're saying a stud center won't happen this year for New England. I hope you're wrong but short of a surprise trade for somebody (won't happen), getting a steal off the late-preseason scrap heap OR a rookie showing dominance, I have no alternative answer.

The way Wendell has been handled by the Pats mystifies me. They let him test free agency which suggests he wasn't highly valued, then they bring him back on a two-year deal that isn't exactly bargain-basement cheap. The frustrating thing about his play is how he gets dominated physically, but he must be considered reliable in certain ways (durability, making line calls, shotgun snapping). Maybe he can step up his game this year.

The Patriots may already have a top five center on their team in Braxston Cave. This year, he will have a full offseason and training camp to develop.

I need to educate myself on this guy.

 

[Kontradiction]

They could select a Guard and have a camp battle between Wendell, Connolly, and Cave for Center.

Now we're talking.

 

[borg]

Last season, the Broncos had the BEST OL in the NFL as far as protecting their passer. The best by far. Yet in one game, and even thought they ended up giving just one sack, they looked just as bad as the Pats OL the week before.

Now I have no reason why what was such an impenetrable force the week before, suddenly became a sieve one week later.

In 2013...NFC elite = varsity....AFC elite =JV.......was it really that much of a mystery?

As far as the Pats OL......the eye test has shown a vulnerability at interior OL for the past several years which, at least in my opinion, is the best way to disrupt Brady. Maybe my recent memory is fading but I just don't get the sense that Brady was as elusive in the pocket, aka stepping up in the pocket, as in the glory years....because...teams understand Brady's accuracy is based on mechanics....aka....striding forward. Clogging his stride zone should to be plan A for any defense and Brisket or Pork Chop or Pot Roast (whatever Knighton's nickname is) executed Plan A perfectly.
Though Denver is only one team on the schedule, NE will likely battle for home field vs Denver in the regular season and a SB berth in the post season.....so the question is simple....IS STATUS QUO at Interior OL gonna get the job done this coming year??

Which gets me to my next point. At times over the past few years, I have attached the label "Finesse" to the Pats offense....and I usually arrive at that label after the OL gets whipped and the NE offense becomes one dimensional relying on their midgets in the 3 yard passing game. Last time I looked, our midgets are locked into LT contracts...so any change must take place at OL......seems logical .....right??

 

[goheels22002]

So in summation, you're saying a stud center won't happen this year for New England. I hope you're wrong but short of a surprise trade for somebody (won't happen), getting a steal off the late-preseason scrap heap OR a rookie showing dominance, I have no alternative answer.

WalterFootball.com: 2014 NFL Draft: Center Rankings No centers in this year's draft really jump into round one on most of the draft geek lists.

This post should be in the draft section of the board, but I like the Pats to take Xavier Sua Filo from UCLA who is more than solid. I like the fact that he's older, having left school to complete a Morman mission, and then came back to be one of UCLA's best linemen. He's strong, has good technique in both the passing and running game, and is a mature guy.

WalterFootball.com: 2014 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Xavier Su'a-Filo