The Offensive Line conundrum

[mgteich]

I agree that a 2014 starter would be a 1st rounder, probably before 30.

To my mind, if we want a 2015 starter at RG and/or center, this is the draft to draft a player.
I would want a top quality player. As we did with Solder, we should draft one year ahead. That would mean drafting a center or guard in the 1st or 2nd round (or mid-third).

Posters all have their own wishes for the first three rounds. We'll see what the board looks like. IMHO, an interior lineman would be an excellent pick in the first three rounds. Of course, I've been saying that for 5 years. Belichick is more likely to simply extend Connolly.

I also think that we need to draft a backup OT.

That's fine, but stud C's who can start right away are usually taken in the first 30 picks. Sure there have been other C's who have been drafted later and wound up being "studs", but they usually take a few years to develop. What about now.

Now I'd love to upgrade the C and RG positions.

The draft might be an answer, but we aren't likely to take one in the first 2 rounds, even if there is one worthy of that high a pick, and after that I have to assume that even if that player eventually usurps Wendell, it won't be THIS year. THAT's why this is such a "conundrum" There are no easy fixes. Well actually there is. The players who didn't complete their assignments, simply have to do better

 

[manxman2601]

Leapin' Lineman! I guess I didn't realize how critical this seemingly benign correlation is. Please, indulge us. I promise to jump for joy!

I'm not here to indulge ignorance. however, if you are actually interested in opening your mind, look below.

First I have heard of it but i am guessing it is like the 3 cone for certain skill positions in that they are looking for prospects with good agility and change of direction abilities. in terms of the high jump it is probably that they are looking for centers with good explosion and good feet and there is a correlation between high jump and explosion as they measure it. I doubt it is a dealbreaker by any means but it probably one of the measurables they pay attention to when evaluating them.

Of the 13 linemen we've drafted or signed that have recorded vertical leaps, 10 have VJ's of 28" or higher including all our higher picks (No info for Matt Light). Only 3 had less than that (all busts). At the recent combine, that would have meant only 30% of linemen qualified. however, 76% of Patriots linemen qualify. I shall leave you to decide whether it's a deal breaker or not. On that I have no opinion.

 

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
Correlation and causation are 2 very different things.

Not in this case.

I wouldn't mind hearing some actual reasons to justify causation rather than 'because I said so'.

(sitting on the fence)

 

[manxman2601]

I wouldn't mind hearing some actual reasons to justify causation rather than 'because I said so'.

(sitting on the fence)

I wrote this in the draft forum some days ago:

As regards the offensive line. I was just looking at the link between Patriots' OL and the vertical jump which seems to be a fairly strong link. Here's the information on as many significant/drafted Patriots' linemen that I could find. note, there's nothing for Matt Light, Ryan Wendell or Stephen Neal.


Sebastian Vollmer - 36.5
Nate Solder - 32
Nick Kaczur - 31.5
Marcus Cannon - 30.5
Thomas Welch - 29
Dan Connolly - 28.5
Clint Oldenburg - 30"
Corey Hilliard - 29"
Dan Koppen - 28.5"
Donald Thomas - 29.5"


There's clearly a common theme there. In and around the 30" mark. And included here are most of the offensive linemen that have had some sort of significant role on our offense. If they aren't, themn they're players we've drafted under BB.

There are some that we've drafted that don't match up:

Ted Larsen - 26"
Ryan O'Callaghan - 26"
Dan Stevenson - 24.5"

It should be noted that Matt Stankiewitch and Braxston Cave were both well under the 28" threshold so maybe it doesn't apply to centers, but then again, neither were drafted. a 76% correlation says more to me than mere coincidence. That is the total of my assertion. How others regard that information is up to them.

 

[ATippett56]

The Patriots look for offensive linemen with very good vertical jumps. That's a matter of fact. Whether that applies strictly to centers can be questioned purely because of the small sample size. However to ignore the correlation between the Patriots drafting offensive linemen and their vertical jumps would mean ignoring a fair amount of empirical data.

What is the mythical minimum threshold?

 

[manxman2601]

What is the mythical minimum threshold?

Feel free to be a d*ck. I won't indulge you.

 

[Froob]

I wrote this in the draft forum some days ago:




It should be noted that Matt Stankiewitch and Braxston Cave were both well under the 28" threshold so maybe it doesn't apply to centers, but then again, neither were drafted. a 76% correlation says more to me than mere coincidence. That is the total of my assertion. How others regard that information is up to them.

Honestly, I'm curious why they even do a VJ for line-men at all. Maybe there is something to it. I'd love to get an answer from Scar or attempt to get one from BB. I assume they wouldn't have them do it for no reason.

 

[stinkypete]

Best player available, best value available, sometime after day 1. That's the best solution I've got.

 

[ATippett56]

Feel free to be a d*ck. I won't indulge you.

Keep fishing.

Ted Larsen | North Carolina State, C : 2010 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Ted Larsen = 24" Vertical Jump

 

[JackBauer]

Keep fishing.

Ted Larsen*|*North Carolina State,*C*:*2010 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Ted Larsen = 24" Vertical Jump

Did you miss the part where manx included him among the picks who didn't match up?

 

[ATippett56]

Did you miss the part where manx included him among the picks who didn't match up?

How about the some of the best centers in the game:

Ryan Kalil ?
Max Unger ?

It's a god damn fishing expedition.

 

[manxman2601]

How about the some best centers in the game:

Ryan Kalil ?
Max Unger ?

It's a god damn fishing expedition.

When were they on the Pats?

 

[Ring 6]

Not in this case.

Care to provide some evidence?

 

[ATippett56]

When were they on the Pats?

The vertical jumps refute your correlation:

Max Unger = 24.5"
Ryan Kalil = 26.0"

Former 2010 New England Patriots draft selection:

Ted Larsen = 24"

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not here to indulge ignorance. however, if you are actually interested in opening your mind, look below.




Of the 13 linemen we've drafted or signed that have recorded vertical leaps, 10 have VJ's of 28" or higher including all our higher picks (No info for Matt Light). Only 3 had less than that (all busts). At the recent combine, that would have meant only 30% of linemen qualified. however, 76% of Patriots linemen qualify. I shall leave you to decide whether it's a deal breaker or not. On that I have no opinion.

It sounds very coincidental to me.

 

[manxman2601]

Care to provide some evidence?

I did in post 44.

 

[manxman2601]

It sounds very coincidental to me.

OK, that's up to you. I provide the evidence, how other people treat that evidence is up to them - and I don't mean that aggressively, I just don't have an agenda, I'm oly interested in the empirical data.

 

[Ring 6]

I wrote this in the draft forum some days ago:




It should be noted that Matt Stankiewitch and Braxston Cave were both well under the 28" threshold so maybe it doesn't apply to centers, but then again, neither were drafted. a 76% correlation says more to me than mere coincidence. That is the total of my assertion. How others regard that information is up to them.

There are a number of OL excluded from your list so the correlation may be more or less than what you showed.
Additionally, the Patriots have always valued athletic OL. The screen game, pass heavy offense and propensity to pull and trap makes that an important characteristic.
More athletic can tend to mean better jumper, but does not have to.
I think what you see is that the Patriots have certain characteristics that they look for and those characteristics tend to make them better jumpers too.

 

[manxman2601]

The vertical jumps refute your correlation:

Max Unger = 24.5"
Ryan Kalil = 26.0"

Former 2010 New England Patriots draft selection:

Ted Larsen = 24"

No they don't because neither player was drafted or signed by the Patriots. I am not saying that a good vertical jump makes a good center. I am saying that for an O Lineman to be drafted by the Patriots, the chances are he needs a good vertical jump in and around 30". That is all I'm saying. If you bothered to read rather than making assumptions you'd see that.

 

[patfanken]

When were they on the Pats?

Manx, I don't think he was being combative. I think he's just trying to see if all or most of the acknowledged best centers in the league have had strong VJ's. If guys like the Pouncey's and Mack had 30'' or more VJ's it would bolster your hypothesis. And just who are considered the best 5 C's in the NFL these days. I'd like to know that as well.

This is one of the reasons I'm glad I continued this thread. I have never heard of this correlation between the VJ and success in offensive linemen. But now that its been brought up, it makes some sense. I learned something new today. That being said, I also think an OLman's 3 cone and short shuttle can be just as important. Especially in this day and age, quick feet are critical weapons to an offensive lineman in the passing game.

BTW- Volmer's 36" VJ is just sick for a guy his size