Why are people still trashing the defense?

[nabwong]

The Patriots have faced the Bills, Bucs and Jets.

Which of those teams has an offense right now?

You can't spell offensive without offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Geno Smith passed for over 300 yards yesterday and the Jets' offense scored 27 points.

Geno Smith faced the Bills yesterday. That's the same Bills team the was missing its CB1 and S1, and then lost its CB2 during the game.

EJ Manuel passed for 296 yards and the Bills' offense scored 24 points in week 2 against a team that shut out the Giants yesterday.

Yes, if you ignore what you've seen from the Bills offense, you can pretend it's a good offense because its best game was a one point win, at home, against another 1-2 team who's coach is already on the hot seat. Come on.

It's not like the offenses the Pats have faced have done as bad as they did vs. the Pats in their other two games. In fact, each team the Pats have faced this year have had their worst offensive performance so far this year against the Patriots. All three offenses scored their fewest points in a game vs. the Pats.

Again, come on. Your making complete non-points and acting as if they mean something. Points allowed comparisons with offensively challenged teams, really?


The defense looks better, but we won't know how much of that is valid, and how much is a product of playing 2 rookie QBs in their first couple of games, followed by a QB who's struggling big-time and lost his top 2 receivers during the game, until it plays against offenses that are actually playing well. That's just the simple truth, or at least a perfectly reasonable opinion, and it's certainly not "bashing" the defense.

 

[Kontradiction]

Huh?!? Look at Twitter and other boards and even some on this board, there is a very real and decent size segment of the Patriots population down on this defense because they are beating no one.

We don't know how this offense will perform against an elite offense, but the offense has been great thus far. I guarantee you if the Pats defense does well vs. Atlanta it will be that White and Jones are both hurt and Stephen Jackson is out. And then if they do against the Bengals, it will be Dalton sucks.

Even with White hobbled, the Falcons still have enough weapons in Julio, Douglas, and Gonzalez to give the Pats a good litmus test. A.J. Green and the TE combo in Cincy along with their ground game will be another one (better test for the offense, though, given that Cincy's defense looks pretty good, can rush four, and get to the quarterback), and the Saints should be a pretty good one too in spite of their offense sputtering of late. Brees has had a good history against Belichick's defenses going back to 2005 and 2009.

 

[Rob0729]

It's not. I'm cautiously optimistic right now, but I recognize that Matt Ryan and Drew Brees are a step up from Geno Smith and E.J. Manuel. The defense doesn't have to "shut down" it's next three opponents. I would be ecastic if they did, but they don't HAVE to do that. All they have to do is slow those opponents down better than the past defenses were able to do against upper echelon quarterbacks.

Yeah, that's the thing. People are praising the Dolphins defense, but they still gave up 23 points to Atlanta and 20 to Indy. The Falcons had 377 yards of offense and the Colts had 448 yards of offense. The Dolphins defense didn't shut down either of those offenses. They made some key stops at key times, but both offenses moved the ball on the Dolphins' defense.

If the Pats' defense does something similar, I would consider it a very good day for the defense. Not because I have low expectations from the defense, but that is what good defenses in the NFL do against good offenses these days in the NFL.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

Huh?!? Look at Twitter and other boards and even some on this board, there is a very real and decent size segment of the Patriots population down on this defense because they are beating no one.

We don't know how this offense will perform against an elite offense, but the offense has been great thus far. I guarantee you if the Pats defense does well vs. Atlanta it will be that White and Jones are both hurt and Stephen Jackson is out. And then if they do against the Bengals, it will be Dalton sucks.

I know that, people will always be critical, didn't deny that.

The bolded sentence makes no sense, I also agree there will be excuses ('you beat up a 1-3 team!') next week. None of this says the D is at 04 or even 07 level, they played three horrible offenses and that is fact. You are in damage control mode, reaching for a reason to overrate the defense.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's not. I'm cautiously optimistic right now, but I recognize that Matt Ryan and Drew Brees are a step up from Geno Smith and E.J. Manuel. The defense doesn't have to "shut down" it's next three opponents. I would be ecastic if they did, but they don't HAVE to do that. All they have to do is slow those opponents down better than the past defenses were able to do against upper echelon quarterbacks.

Absolutely. I expect the defense to do that, too. This team will be a much stronger defense than it was for at least most of last year, as long as the top three CBs stay healthy.

 

[Rob0729]

Geno Smith faced the Bills yesterday. That's the same Bills team the was missing its CB1 and S1, and then lost its CB2 during the game.



Yes, if you ignore what you've seen from the Bills offense, you can pretend it's a good offense because its best game was a one point win, at home, against another 1-2 team who's coach is already on the hot seat. Come on.

Never said either were good offenses or even average offenses. I am just stating both offenses have produced respectable numbers this year against other defenses.

Again, come on. Your making complete non-points and acting as if they mean something. The defense looks better, but we won't know how much of that is valid, and how much is a product of playing 2 rookie QBs in their first couple of games, followed by a QB who's struggling big-time and lost his top 2 receivers during the game, until it plays against offenses that are actually playing well. That's just the simple truth.

Non-point? How is it a non-point? Every single offense we faced has also faced the Jets' defense (other than the Jets obviously) and everyone thinks the Jets' defense is great right now. The fact that every offense the Pats has faced this season has had it's worst game against the Pats means something. What it means may be different five weeks from now than it does right now, but it is the only measuring stick we have at this point.

 

[lurker1965]

Yes, they looked good. Against. The. Bills. Against. The. Jets. Against. The Bucs.
I hope you are right and they are good against multi-syllable teams too.

 

[Deus Irae]

Never said either were good offenses or even average offenses. I am just stating both offenses have produced respectable numbers this year against other defenses.

But that's completely meaningless without context. Hell, the whole point of "but we won't know until we see a better offense" is to point out that the context matters.

Non-point? How is it a non-point? Every single offense we faced has also faced the Jets' defense (other than the Jets obviously) and everyone thinks the Jets' defense is great right now. The fact that every offense the Pats has faced this season has had it's worst game against the Pats means something. What it means may be different five weeks from now than it does right now, but it is the only measuring stick we have at this point.

The answer to your question is obvious, and you know that already (even above and beyond that whole "Bucs lost their receivers during the game, so that's a completely stacked argument" thing). Look, you made a really bad post. It happens. Just let it die.

 

[Rob0729]

I know that, people will always be critical, didn't deny that.

The bolded sentence makes no sense, I also agree there will be excuses ('you beat up a 1-3 team!') next week. None of this says the D is at 04 or even 07 level, they played three horrible offenses and that is fact. You are in damage control mode, reaching for a reason to overrate the defense.

First, I am not overrating the defense. I don't have an illusion at this point that it is an elite defense in the league. I think it is an above average defense and arguably the best defense the Pats have put out in a number of years. That isn't setting the bar high.

Second, in years past, the Pats have faced offenses that were so bad that they would make any of the three they faced this year look like the 2007 Patriots and still let them throw all over them. Pats' defenses in recent years have made Chad Henne look like Dan Marino in his prime, Matt Flynn look like a real NFL QB, and many other scrubs look like elite QBs.

Third, there is a sentiment out there that this defense is just as bad in previous years, but we just haven't seen it yet. I don't know how much of the population feels that way.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Indeed. I don't see how a "wait and see" approach is bashing, under the circumstances.

:kev::kev::kev:

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah, that's the thing. People are praising the Dolphins defense, but they still gave up 23 points to Atlanta and 20 to Indy. The Falcons had 377 yards of offense and the Colts had 448 yards of offense. The Dolphins defense didn't shut down either of those offenses. They made some key stops at key times, but both offenses moved the ball on the Dolphins' defense.

If the Pats' defense does something similar, I would consider it a very good day for the defense. Not because I have low expectations from the defense, but that is what good defenses in the NFL do against good offenses these days in the NFL.

A successful day for the defense, to me, would be to hold Atlanta near the total yardage that the Dolphins did or less. Somewhere between 330-370 yards with around 17 points on the board and a turnover or two. That's not out of the question, especially with a running game that's missing their primary threat and a TE that's getting up there for the passing game to lean on, should Julio be taken out of the game by getting doubled. It's if Atlanta goes over 400 yards of total offense and puts up 24 or more points that I'll begin to worry. I'll start there and take those projections on to Cincy and New Orleans.

 

[lurker1965]

The Patriots have faced the Bills, Bucs and Jets.

Which of those teams has an offense right now?

Oh yeah! Well, the Jets are 2-1.:bricks:

(Shhh!!! Against the Bills and Bucs, yes, I know. RESPECT the emoticon. )

 

[Rob0729]

But that's completely meaningless without context. Hell, the whole point of "but we won't know until we see a better offense" is to point out that the context matters.



The answer to your question is obvious, and you know that already. Look, you made a really bad post. It happens. Just let it die.

LOL! That's funny coming from you.

 

[goheels22002]

I don't know about that. Geno Smith is Jeckyl and Hyde, but at times he is a very good QB.

But then again, Jake Locker, Kevin Kolb, and Joe Flacco aren't a murder's row of QBs (as I already said) and the Pats weren't able to shut them down.

I like getting Matty Ice in week 4 - the pass defense has enough real game action together to figure things out and he's like the mid-term exam after three quizzes.

The fundamental differences between heading into week 4 this year over last year are 1) the pass rush is noticeably better and we're already seeing more stunts and disguised looks at the line even when they don't blitz and rush four, and 2) the CBs are where they are supposed to be and looking for the ball on completions and incompletions alike.

Last year, this board was blowing up with complaints about how vanilla the pass rush looked eight and nine weeks into the season. With Kelly in the middle with Vince along with Ninkovich and a second-year Chandler Jones, the looks at the line of scrimmage are different from play to play. We do not know how effective that is against a smart and experienced signal caller - we'll find out next week and two weeks later when Drew Brees comes to town. My guess is that looks are disguising the rush packages and the coverages just fine, but we don't really know yet.

Last year the CBs were getting burned and the safeties were out of position on almost anything thrown between 15 and 40 yards. That is not happening this year. Arrington is lights out against whoever is in the slot, and Dennard and Talib are muscling their guys up the field, and get their heads around when they sense the ball is in the air.

Everyone has to remember the repeated plays last year when McCourty and Cole, or Moore or Dowling were getting burned and picking up penalties for not looking for the ball. Dowling and Moore are gone, McCourty is a safety, and I don't remember seeing Cole on the field except on special teams. Dennard and Talib are a completely different story.

 

[Rob0729]

A successful day for the defense, to me, would be to hold Atlanta near the total yardage that the Dolphins did or less. Somewhere between 330-370 yards with around 17 points on the board and a turnover or two. That's not out of the question, especially with a running game that's missing their primary threat and a TE that's getting up there for the passing game to lean on, should Julio be taken out of the game by getting doubled. It's if Atlanta goes over 400 yards of total offense and puts up 24 or more points that I'll begin to worry. I'll start there and take those projections on to Cincy and New Orleans.

I think we are in agreement with what the measuring stick for Sunday night. I would expect Talib to shadow Jones all game (with over the top help). If he can do what he did with Jackson before he went out, I think they will minimize his contribution.

 

[Rob0729]

I like getting Matty Ice in week 4 - the pass defense has enough real game action together to figure things out and he's like the mid-term exam after three quizzes.

The fundamental differences between heading into week 4 this year over last year are 1) the pass rush is noticeably better and we're already seeing more stunts and disguised looks at the line even when they don't blitz and rush four, and 2) the CBs are where they are supposed to be and looking for the ball on completions and incompletions alike.

Last year, this board was blowing up with complaints about how vanilla the pass rush looked eight and nine weeks into the season. With Kelly in the middle with Vince along with Ninkovich and a second-year Chandler Jones, the looks at the line of scrimmage are different from play to play. We do not know how effective that is against a smart and experienced signal caller - we'll find out next week and two weeks later when Drew Brees comes to town. My guess is that looks are disguising the rush packages and the coverages just fine, but we don't really know yet.

Last year the CBs were getting burned and the safeties were out of position on almost anything thrown between 15 and 40 yards. That is not happening this year. Arrington is lights out against whoever is in the slot, and Dennard and Talib are muscling their guys up the field, and get their heads around when they sense the ball is in the air.

Everyone has to remember the repeated plays last year when McCourty and Cole, or Moore or Dowling were getting burned and picking up penalties for not looking for the ball. Dowling and Moore are gone, McCourty is a safety, and I don't remember seeing Cole on the field except on special teams. Dennard and Talib are a completely different story.

The one thing with the pass rush that we really haven't had a chance to see the full effect yet is Chandler Jones as an inside rusher. A QB like Ryan is the reason why you move Jones inside. An inside rush by him and Kelly has the potential to give even the elite pocket passers fits if executed correctly. Pocket passers, even elite ones, are susceptible to the inside rush.

So far the Pats have faced only mobile QBs and I don't know if we have seen the full effect of what the Pats envisioned with Jones kicked inside at DT.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Last year...

Just to piggyback off of two words in your post, and not the whole thing:

Last year is actually an excellent example. The first two weeks were against the Titans and the Cardinals, and the Patriots held them to a combined 33 points.

Then they faced the Ravens in week 3 and gave up 31, followed by giving up 28 to the Bills, and people saw that it was mostly the same old defense.

People have seen this before. They want to know that the story's going to be different moving forward. I don't see any reason to blame them for that.

 

[Rob0729]

Just to piggyback off of two words in your post, and not the whole thing:

Last year is actually an excellent example. The first two weeks were against the Titans and the Cardinals, and the Patriots held them to a combined 33 points.

Then they faced the Ravens in week 3 and gave up 31, followed by giving up 28 to the Bills, and people saw that it was mostly the same old defense.

People have seen this before. They want to know that the story's going to be different moving forward. I don't see any reason to blame them for that.

You are talking about irrelevant points. The Pats have held three opposing offenses to 20 points and you are comparing them to two opposing offenses (which everyone knew were just as bad as the three the Pats have faced this year) to 33 points. This year the defense is giving up 6.33 PPG in three games and last year it was 16.5 PPG in two.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are talking about irrelevant points.

No, I'm not.

The Pats have held three opposing offenses to 20 points and you are comparing them to two opposing offenses (which everyone knew were just as bad as the three the Pats have faced this year) to 33 points.

The Patriots surrendered 31 points in their first two games this season, compared to 33 last season.