The 2012 Combine Thread

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

As of now, Mayock's top 5 WRs are: Blackmon, Wright, Floyd, Randle & Jeffery.

I wonder if today's workouts will help him change his list; and I'd like to know who his #s 6-10 are.

I was not impressed with Randle during the drills. He didn't stand out unlike Hill, Wylie, Moye, and Wright.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I love Devon Wylie but if we take him we have three WRs tying up the slot spot in Welker, Edelman and Wylie.

- Edelman might have more impact on defense than he will on offense.
- There's no reason why Wylie can't be groomed to take over for Branch.
- We need a backup for Welker, don't we? Having depth at a position is a good thing, especially when it's cheap.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I was dipping in and out but everytime I saw Wylie he was body catching or dropping the ball. Hate to be boring, but twitter draftniks were raving about Marvin Jones.

During which drills?? I didn't see Wylie drop any during the gauntlet..

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Production isn't everything. You have to put it into the context of the offense they were running. There's the one receiver from Western Michigan who had 140 receptions this year. Well, they also passed the ball like 600 times..

Take a look at Hill's production relative to the offense he is coming out of.

Hill liked especially sharp in the drills, including the gauntlet and the post corner drill.

One of the flaws in Chad Jackson was that he was a slow learner. It took him 3 years to learn the Florida Play-book. He also wasn't willing to put in the time doing film study. This came from Troy Brown.

Those things aren't what you hear about Hill. You hear that he's a quick study and that he DOES like to watch film. He may not be a film rat like Brady, but he seems to have the attitude that he'll do whatever he can to get better.

My issue is, the Pats have only drafted 1 WR since 2002 that has had a 1000 yard receiving season, Deion Branch. NE Patriots Draft had a great line when they were evaluating the Pats recent WR draft struggles, which I completely agree with. The Patriots should draft WRs on what they are, not what they can be. Hill could be a superstar in the NFL, but he also carries a lot of risk. He is raw, still learning to run basic routes and then needs to not only learn the Patriots system, but gain Brady's trust. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I would prefer to go a safer route. They have a history of taking these kinds of guys and none of them have worked out, so I think its time for a different approach. I also think its important to not get caught up in combine workouts. If you didn't consider him a 1st round prospect based on his tape before the combine, would you consider him a 1st round prospect just because he can run a little faster and jump a little higher than you expected, without pads.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Kellen Moore coming near or dead last in the 40, vertical jump, and broad jump. Only weighs 196 pounds, only 6', looks weak, not a strong arm. Does this all sound familiar?



In all seriousness I like him, a winner, and when you watch his film he's very accurate/smart decision maker, may he be too small for the NFL, probably, but I like him in the 7th or UDFA.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Yeah but what you fail to realize is that depth at a position you're stacked at comes at the expense of other positions. Also, that TE that you want us to draft so bad with a 1st or 2nd rounder probably isn't going to be cool with being stuck behind Gronk and Hernandez for at least the next 2-3 years.

This isn't Fantasy Football, bro.

Ok, I'll bite because I DO want Fleener in the early 2nd round. The fact that Fleener is something is a cross between Gronk and Ahern is a very good thing, he can potentially perform in either role which would probably have given us a Lombardi a few weeks ago. Running a 2 TE sets with only 2 TEs on your roster is BEGGING for a disaster, it means you have 0 room in case of an injury, that's not being paranoid about an injury because that injury WILL happen, it's a statistical certainty.

Also, what free agent TEs are available that will improve the offense? The best one I can see is Visanthe Shancoe, who doesn't blow my skirt up at all, he's competant but doesn't do anything at a very high level. HE would be an example of someone it wouldnt be foolish to blow a lot of draft/cap resources on.

Also, Fleener can be split wide, I keep on hearing about how we need an outside/deep threat, there's no reason Fleener can't perform there as well, that's why it's incorrect to assume he'd be stuck behind our 2 TEs.

I wasn't thrilled about bringing in Ocho because I didnt think he had what we needed, which was the skills to be a man-beater, I actually thought Burress had those physical skills but I don't like Burress because of his head. There's no reason Fleener can't function at a higher level than Burress in that role, and he can be a fixture on the offense for the next decade, something our short term potential fixes like Lloyd and Wayne won't be.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Coach B BLEW it.

This year's Crop of Wing Backs is DRY.

LAST year's Crop was LUSCIOUS.

~ Lance Kendricks
~ Jordan Cameron
~ Julius Thomas
~ Brett Brackett

There is PRECIOUS little to choose from, THIS year, now that everybody's ONTO Tight Ends...

...Which of course makes the current barren crop even MORE expensive!!

Yeah obviously wing back was high on our list last year. I mean, we only have the best "wing back" TE in the game. Heck, let's try and get the top 2. **** it! Let's make it three! While we're at it, let's grab another HOF QB and a few Pro Bowl OTs. Stock up every where!

We don't have a team if we field 53 wing backs.

Yeah, we didn't miss Gronkowski during the Super Bowl at ALL, DID we??

Ever heard of DEPTH, Junior?? :bricks:

Yeah I've heard of depth. We have two All-Pro caliber TEs already. You can play the game of Football a thousand different ways but the absolute one way you don't play this game is being paranoid about injuries.

Again, there's a difference between "having depth" and "being paranoid about injuries."

Having a third TE is not exactly "being paranoid about injuries" when your base set is a 2-TE set.

Using a first-round pick on such a player, though, would certainly be a bit beyond "having depth."

Exactly.

Only a raving IDIOT fails to grasp the fundamental concept of Depth.

Having DEPTH has NOTHING to do with "being paranoid about injuries."

It's call "being SMART."

...A concept that clearly ELUDES certain folks.

Yeah but what you fail to realize is that depth at a position you're stacked at comes at the expense of other positions. Also, that TE that you want us to draft so bad with a 1st or 2nd rounder probably isn't going to be cool with being stuck behind Gronk and Hernandez for at least the next 2-3 years.

This isn't Fantasy Football, bro.

I see that the most basic fundamentals are beyond your fumbling grasp, but I'll try, anyway:

~ Gronk and Aaron the Navigator play two different positions: Flex End + Wing Back.

~ They have very different Starting Roles, and are most effectively employed together.

~ As such, it's pretty much INSANE to not develop "understudies" behind them, to step in as needed.

~ That's an extremely SIMPLE concept, yes?? How're we doing??

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I think one thing we all need to remember is we are still 60 days, 7 hours and 30 odd minutes away from the draft and everything will still change. This time last year there was no chance Nick Fairley would fall to #14, and JJ Watt was likely to be available in the 20's. While we are getting some good information about these kids, most of this stuff doesn't really translate to on the field production. The combine is still only a small part of the process, and just cause a guy runs a great 40, or has a good 3 cone time doesn't change the tape, which is the most important thing.

Agreed. As good as Hill's combine was, you could say Benjamin Watson's was equivalent in many ways. Both came from a school where running the ball was the norm, so we didn't get to really see either player showcase their talent. Both add off the chart combines at their respected positions. For Watson his measureables never panned out to what us Pats fans had hoped for. His career has been ok and he is still doing ok in Cleveland. We probably put to much into his workout and expected Shannon Sharpe numbers.

It doesn't mean scratch Hill off your list because he is destined to be a workout warrior and nothing else. He very well could be the next big thing but I just emphasize using caution before they use a first round pick on him. I trust the Pats will break down the tape and interview the kid.

He really was fun to watch today. I'm pretty excited about his potential.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Kellen Moore coming near or dead last in the 40, vertical jump, and broad jump. Only weighs 196 pounds, only 6', looks weak, not a strong arm. Does this all sound familiar?



In all seriousness I like him, a winner, and when you watch his film he's very accurate/smart decision maker, may he be too small in the NFL, probably, but I like him in the 7th or UDFA.

I can't help liking Moore, in the throwing drills he went and made a bunch of the throws everyone said he can't make. His throwing motion and mechanics stink but those can be adjusted, I think Moore has the intelligence to realize he needs to improve something and would work on it if he wasn't in a starting role. Before people point to Tebow as an example of this not being possible, I don't think Tebow has the intelligence or humility to seriously work on his mechanics.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I can't help liking Moore, in the throwing drills he went and made a bunch of the throws everyone said he can't make. His throwing motion and mechanics stink but those can be adjusted, I think Moore has the intelligence to realize he needs to improve something and would work on it if he wasn't in a starting role. Before people point to Tebow as an example of this not being possible, I don't think Tebow has the intelligence or humility to seriously work on his mechanics.

Tebow also has some of the worst accuracy ever displayed.

Moore has alot of the stuff you want in the QB that isn't measured, and atleast he's accurate.

He'd be a good player for the practice squad for a year and then be the #3 QB behind Mallett when Hoyer leaves next year. He needs two years to gain weight and strength lol.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I can't help liking Moore, in the throwing drills he went and made a bunch of the throws everyone said he can't make. His throwing motion and mechanics stink but those can be adjusted, I think Moore has the intelligence to realize he needs to improve something and would work on it if he wasn't in a starting role. Before people point to Tebow as an example of this not being possible, I don't think Tebow has the intelligence or humility to seriously work on his mechanics.

If you could give him a few years to develop and completely rebuild his mechanics, I think he has a shot. Right now he can't throw the ball at an NFL level. His release is long and ugly and his arm strength is poor at best, but they could be improved with better mechanics. What is harder to teach is just a deeper understanding of the game and the brain of a H.O.F. caliber QB. His anticipation and processing speed is second to none in college football, and the guy just wins. He will always be limited by his size, but with better mechanics he might be able to prove everyone wrong.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

During which drills?? I didn't see Wylie drop any during the gauntlet..

He didn't pluck a single ball in the first gauntlet, all were close to his body. I did see a couple of drops, not sure which drills because I was having problems with my feed. I'm not saying I don't like him, he looks a very sharp route runner but i would like to have seen a little more. I know you like him and I don't want to diss anothers binky, I just wonder whether the value is there on him. would you take him over Ryan Broyles or someone like Darius Hanks who did really well today? I don't know. I certainly wouldn't be disappointed by him, just not excited yet. Happy to be persuaded otherwise. One thing in his favour, Fresno St. is one of BB's favoured schools.

 

[patsderoer]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Ok, I'll bite because I DO want Fleener in the early 2nd round. The fact that Fleener is something is a cross between Gronk and Ahern is a very good thing, he can potentially perform in either role which would probably have given us a Lombardi a few weeks ago. Running a 2 TE sets with only 2 TEs on your roster is BEGGING for a disaster, it means you have 0 room in case of an injury, that's not being paranoid about an injury because that injury WILL happen, it's a statistical certainty.

Also, what free agent TEs are available that will improve the offense? The best one I can see is Visanthe Shancoe, who doesn't blow my skirt up at all, he's competant but doesn't do anything at a very high level. HE would be an example of someone it wouldnt be foolish to blow a lot of draft/cap resources on.

Also, Fleener can be split wide, I keep on hearing about how we need an outside/deep threat, there's no reason Fleener can't perform there as well, that's why it's incorrect to assume he'd be stuck behind our 2 TEs.

I wasn't thrilled about bringing in Ocho because I didnt think he had what we needed, which was the skills to be a man-beater, I actually thought Burress had those physical skills but I don't like Burress because of his head. There's no reason Fleener can't function at a higher level than Burress in that role, and he can be a fixture on the offense for the next decade, something our short term potential fixes like Lloyd and Wayne won't be.

Great post. And of course, Fleener will not only be "a back-up", to enter the game only when Gronk or AH are injured.
He could be part of a TE rotation, giving the defense different looks, confusing them. And allowing Gronk and AH some rest, rather than running them into the ground during the regular season because they have no legit back-up.
And Fleener is a legit 6'6'', same size as Gronk. He would be a big target in the endzone for Brady, imagine Fleener lined-up against 6' CBs. He also has great hands and also great speed for his size, according to his teammates.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

If I get boring about my binkies, please let me know but I love this from twitter:

OU CB Jamell Fleming, who picked off Tannehill 3 times in his career: "I mean, he can throw. Just not to me."

Also on twitter, Tony Pauline is reporting that two AFC teams have told him they won't consider taking Jeffrey until at least the middle of the second round.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I know you like him and I don't want to diss anothers binky, I just wonder whether the value is there on him. would you take him over Ryan Broyles or someone like Darius Hanks who did really well today? I don't know.

How much is Wylie likely to cost as opposed to the other two after today? I think he'll likely go in the later rounds.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Great post. And of course, Fleener will not only be "a back-up", to enter the game only when Gronk or AH are injured.
He could be part of a TE rotation, giving the defense different looks, confusing them. And allowing Gronk and AH some rest, rather than running them into the ground during the regular season because they have no legit back-up.
And Fleener is a legit 6'6'', same size as Gronk. He would be a big target in the endzone for Brady, imagine Fleener lined-up against 6' CBs. He also has great hands and also great speed for his size, according to his teammates.

GRONK, Hernandez, Fleener, Welker, Lloyd, Solder/Cannon as 3rd TE, RB.

Imagine what you could do with platooning that lineup.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

My issue is, the Pats have only drafted 1 WR since 2002 that has had a 1000 yard receiving season, Deion Branch. NE Patriots Draft had a great line when they were evaluating the Pats recent WR draft struggles, which I completely agree with. The Patriots should draft WRs on what they are, not what they can be. Hill could be a superstar in the NFL, but he also carries a lot of risk. He is raw, still learning to run basic routes and then needs to not only learn the Patriots system, but gain Brady's trust. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I would prefer to go a safer route. They have a history of taking these kinds of guys and none of them have worked out, so I think its time for a different approach. I also think its important to not get caught up in combine workouts. If you didn't consider him a 1st round prospect based on his tape before the combine, would you consider him a 1st round prospect just because he can run a little faster and jump a little higher than you expected, without pads.

So, basically you are punishing Hill because his QB at GT was a runner more than a passer.. OK. What about all the intangibles the kid brings?

Excellent downfield blocker.
Excellent hands.
Good football smarts.
Willingness to learn. (He sought out an excellent route runner to help himself improve)..


You'd prefer to go the "safer" route and trade a 1st rounder for Mike Wallace who still can't run routes very well and whose best asset is his field awareness to bail out his QB.

You keep saying that the Pats have "failed with these types of players", but you ignore the differences in their character.

Bethel Johnson was a track guy playing football. Was injured too much.
Chad Jackson thought he could just get by on his god given talent.
Brandon Tate is someone who was drafted as a KR/PR with hopes to become a good WR.
PK Sam - See Chad Jackson.

Taylor Price - We don't really know what his issue was. It is telling that BB said they wanted to bring him back if he cleared waivers..

One other thing. Hill has something that I don't believe the other Pats picks had. Explosion. And that is seen in his 10 yard split (1.44), his vertical (39.5) and his broadjump (11'1). I think that, combined with his excellent blocking ability, should allow him to handle the press coverage better than many other prospects people have seen.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Chris Rainey 4.37 in his first run.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

How much is Wylie likely to cost as opposed to the other two after today? I think he'll likely go in the later rounds.

They're all day 3 picks although Broyles could move up.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

So, basically you are punishing Hill because his QB at GT was a runner more than a passer.. OK. What about all the intangibles the kid brings?

Excellent downfield blocker.
Excellent hands.
Good football smarts.
Willingness to learn. (He sought out an excellent route runner to help himself improve)..


You'd prefer to go the "safer" route and trade a 1st rounder for Mike Wallace who still can't run routes very well and whose best asset is his field awareness to bail out his QB.

You keep saying that the Pats have "failed with these types of players", but you ignore the differences in their character.

Bethel Johnson was a track guy playing football. Was injured too much.
Chad Jackson thought he could just get by on his god given talent.
Brandon Tate is someone who was drafted as a KR/PR with hopes to become a good WR.
PK Sam - See Chad Jackson.

Taylor Price - We don't really know what his issue was. It is telling that BB said they wanted to bring him back if he cleared waivers..

The other thing od course is that it's not like Georgia Tech receivers have come to the NFL and failed. Calvin Johnson and Demaryius Thomas suggests there's something good about the WR coaching at GT which is backed up by Hill's performance in the combine.