The 2012 Combine Thread

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

A further thing on this drafting/evaluating WR's thing. The fail rate on non first round WR's is huge. Bearing in mind the small sample size, it might just be that the Patriots have been unlucky.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

A further thing on this drafting/evaluating WR's thing. The fail rate on non first round WR's is huge. Bearing in mind the small sample size, it might just be that the Patriots have been unlucky.

It could also be that it's more difficult to evaluate a college WR because of the type of offensive system the Pats run, in which case the smarter/safer route is to hire free agents and throw spaghetti at the wall with late round prospects.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Ok, I'll bite because I DO want Fleener in the early 2nd round. The fact that Fleener is something is a cross between Gronk and Ahern is a very good thing, he can potentially perform in either role which would probably have given us a Lombardi a few weeks ago. Running a 2 TE sets with only 2 TEs on your roster is BEGGING for a disaster, it means you have 0 room in case of an injury, that's not being paranoid about an injury because that injury WILL happen, it's a statistical certainty.

Also, what free agent TEs are available that will improve the offense? The best one I can see is Visanthe Shancoe, who doesn't blow my skirt up at all, he's competant but doesn't do anything at a very high level. HE would be an example of someone it wouldnt be foolish to blow a lot of draft/cap resources on.

Also, Fleener can be split wide, I keep on hearing about how we need an outside/deep threat, there's no reason Fleener can't perform there as well, that's why it's incorrect to assume he'd be stuck behind our 2 TEs.

I wasn't thrilled about bringing in Ocho because I didnt think he had what we needed, which was the skills to be a man-beater, I actually thought Burress had those physical skills but I don't like Burress because of his head. There's no reason Fleener can't function at a higher level than Burress in that role, and he can be a fixture on the offense for the next decade, something our short term potential fixes like Lloyd and Wayne won't be.

If they waste a high pick drafting a TE, that'll be a sign that BB needs to retire.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

If they waste a high pick drafting a TE, that'll be a sign that BB needs to retire.

Wow, thanks so much for your input, that post really added a lot of value. Feel free to just throw out more opinions without actually trying to provide information to back them up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Wow, thanks so much for your input, that post really added a lot of value. Feel free to just throw out more opinions without actually trying to provide information to back them up.

You don't go chasing backups, other than the sort of "easing into starter after the other guy leaves", with high draft picks.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

So, basically you are punishing Hill because his QB at GT was a runner more than a passer.. OK. What about all the intangibles the kid brings?

Excellent downfield blocker.
Excellent hands.
Good football smarts.
Willingness to learn. (He sought out an excellent route runner to help himself improve)..


You'd prefer to go the "safer" route and trade a 1st rounder for Mike Wallace who still can't run routes very well and whose best asset is his field awareness to bail out his QB.

You keep saying that the Pats have "failed with these types of players", but you ignore the differences in their character.

Bethel Johnson was a track guy playing football. Was injured too much.
Chad Jackson thought he could just get by on his god given talent.
Brandon Tate is someone who was drafted as a KR/PR with hopes to become a good WR.
PK Sam - See Chad Jackson.

Taylor Price - We don't really know what his issue was. It is telling that BB said they wanted to bring him back if he cleared waivers..

I don't think I'm punishing him, he just hasn't done or shown enough during his college career for me to be comfortable thinking he can transfer to a complex Patriots offence. Is it unlucky for him that he played in that system and never learnt the required skills? Sure. Does that mean you overlook those things? No. This isn't a late round pick where you can take a chance on a guy, we are talking about a 1st round pick for this kid.

I have no doubt he is a good kid and a hard worker. I have nothing against him, in fact I actually like him. But he has so much more work to do to be a success than most of the other top WRs in the draft. And with Brady's lack of patience in developing WR's, I don't know if he could develop here. I think the only way a rookie WR can be successful in New England is if they are good enough to contribute right away and gain Brady's trust. I don't think we can develop them and I don't think Hill can do that.

I didn't think Hill was worthy of a 1st round pick before the combine. And I don't think that running fast and jumping high without pads on should make him a 1st round pick. None of those things translate to being able to be successful in the NFL. I think its silly that these types of things have so much impact on a guys draft stock when it doesn't have any effect on their ability to play football. Its not like he magically got fast over night, he is still the same WR that played at Georgia Tech. To me he is still a mid to late 2nd round WR.

And on Mike Wallace, I never have been, and never will be a fan of bringing him in here. There is no way I would give him a big contract, let alone a contract and 1st round pick. I think he is actually a huge risk as well because we haven't seen him do enough of the things the Pats require to make me believe he can be a success here. I think the whole deep threat search has gotten out of control.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

You don't go chasing backups, other than the sort of "easing into starter after the other guy leaves", with high draft picks.

Fleener would not be a backup, please feel free to read the other posts about him.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

The other thing od course is that it's not like Georgia Tech receivers have come to the NFL and failed. Calvin Johnson and Demaryius Thomas suggests there's something good about the WR coaching at GT which is backed up by Hill's performance in the combine.

To be fair, Calvin Johnson is a once in a generation WR who would be a beast no matter what school he went to and what system he played. In terms of Demaryius Thomas, I think people are overrating him based on the Pittsburgh playoff game. He only has 54 career catches and 834 yards over 2 seasons, so its not like he is consistent, quality NFL receiver yet. I'm not trying to hate on Hill, but with the complexity of the Pats offensive scheme, I think it would be best to go for WR's that have a history of production in schemes that translate better.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Fleener would not be a backup, please feel free to read the other posts about him.

He'd be a backup TE in New England, and I've read every post in the thread. The Patriots will be looking at WR in free agency. They'll be starting

Welker
FA WR
Gronk
Hernandez
RB

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

I don't think I'm punishing him, he just hasn't done or shown enough during his college career for me to be comfortable thinking he can transfer to a complex Patriots offence. Is it unlucky for him that he played in that system and never learnt the required skills? Sure. Does that mean you overlook those things? No. This isn't a late round pick where you can take a chance on a guy, we are talking about a 1st round pick for this kid.

I have no doubt he is a good kid and a hard worker. I have nothing against him, in fact I actually like him. But he has so much more work to do to be a success than most of the other top WRs in the draft. And with Brady's lack of patience in developing WR's, I don't know if he could develop here. I think the only way a rookie WR can be successful in New England is if they are good enough to contribute right away and gain Brady's trust. I don't think we can develop them and I don't think Hill can do that.

I didn't think Hill was worthy of a 1st round pick before the combine. And I don't think that running fast and jumping high without pads on should make him a 1st round pick. None of those things translate to being able to be successful in the NFL. I think its silly that these types of things have so much impact on a guys draft stock when it doesn't have any effect on their ability to play football. Its not like he magically got fast over night, he is still the same WR that played at Georgia Tech. To me he is still a mid to late 2nd round WR.

Why are you even watching the combine if you have so much disdain for it and think it offers next to nothing? Seriously. You are being contradictory.

Not to mention that people are talking about a half a grade change for Hill. It's not like he was a 7th rounder and is now being touted as a top 15 pick. You are SERIOUSLY exaggerating what people are saying about the kid. The problem with some of your statements is that they don't make sense. Hill was talked about as a 2nd round guy. NO ONE is talking like he's going to be a top 20 pick now. On the contrary, the only thing I said was that I could see the Pats draft him in a similar way to how they drafted Mankins. That's half a round up. WOW. OMG.. Does that mean the Pats WILL? No. It's my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if they did. That's all.

Unlike you, I do believe that the Pats can develop Hill. What you have continuously ignored is that the guy WANTS to learn. He's proven that by working with Terrance Mathis and Mohammed Sanu. Hill actively sought them out to help himself. All one has to do is look to Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell to see how Brady treats players who WANT to learn and who are willing to put in the extra work.

Also, if you watched Hill in the 3 different route drills, he was fluid and ran full speed. His cuts were crisp (not Wes Welker crisp, but still good). There was no chop in his steps like some of the receivers.

 

[patsderoer]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

He'd be a backup TE in New England, and I've read every post in the thread.

He could be part of TE-by-committee approach. BB already does this with his RBs. That will allow Gronk and AH to get some rest, and not have any significant drop in production.
Fleener could also be lined-up all over the field. As a WR against 6' CBs.
Or part of 2 TE and AH lined up as a WR.
Or empty backfield, and then a surprise AH run. The possibilities are endless. Just have to use a little imagination. "Just a back-up" LOL

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

He could be part of TE-by-committee approach. BB already does this with his RBs. That will allow Gronk and AH to get some rest, and not have any significant drop in production.
Fleener could also be lined-up all over the field. As a WR against 6' CBs.
Or part of 2 TE and AH lined up as a WR.
Or empty backfield, and then a surprise AH run. The possibilities are endless. Just have to use a little imagination. "Just a back-up" LOL

Good point. It's not as if the WR corps is aging, there's a need for an interior lineman for the future and the team needs DB and OLB/DL help, or anything. The team's got lots of reasons to grab a player who'll project to a 3rd TE with a first or high second round pick.

Also, a team with one of the 2 best TEs in the game, and another TE who's a matchup nightmare for other teams, is really in need of going to a TEBC system.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

The other thing od course is that it's not like Georgia Tech receivers have come to the NFL and failed. Calvin Johnson and Demaryius Thomas suggests there's something good about the WR coaching at GT which is backed up by Hill's performance in the combine.

But that is irrelevant. GT didn't run the high school offense they do now.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

So, basically you are punishing Hill because his QB at GT was a runner more than a passer.. OK. What about all the intangibles the kid brings?

Excellent downfield blocker.
Excellent hands.
Good football smarts.
Willingness to learn. (He sought out an excellent route runner to help himself improve)..

How do you know?

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

To be fair, Calvin Johnson is a once in a generation WR who would be a beast no matter what school he went to and what system he played. In terms of Demaryius Thomas, I think people are overrating him based on the Pittsburgh playoff game. He only has 54 career catches and 834 yards over 2 seasons, so its not like he is consistent, quality NFL receiver yet. I'm not trying to hate on Hill, but with the complexity of the Pats offensive scheme, I think it would be best to go for WR's that have a history of production in schemes that translate better.

Thomas has had a plethora of injuries since he was drafted.His list of injuries include a broken foot, sprained ankle, concussion, torn Achilles and fractured finger. It cost him 6 games during his rookie year and the 1st 6 games of his sophomore year. So, to knock him for only having 54 catches and 834 yards when he's missed 12 of 32 games seems kinda silly. Also, if you ignore the fact that Tebow was his QB for a majority of his sophomore year, then you are also not doing Thomas any justice.

During the last 7 games of the 2011 season (5 regular and 2 post), Thomas had 42 receptions for 745 yards. That's pretty damn good considering that Tim Tebow is throwing him the ball. Oh, and those 42 receptions represent 52.5% of the completions that Tebow threw during that time.

What "schemes" in the college game "translate" better since no school in the college ranks run a scheme remotely close to the Patriots scheme?

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

But that is irrelevant. GT didn't run the high school offense they do now.

Didn't know that


:bricks:

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

How do you know?

Do I know personally? No. But then, neither does anyone else here. Nor does anyone know enough to contradict it. As I stated in a previous post, that is what is reported about the kid. If you have other information, please share..

 

[manxman2601]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Stephen Hill continues to impress - he's now put up the third best broad jump at the combine since 2006 behind Julio Jones and Jerome Simpson.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Do I know personally? No. But then, neither does anyone else here. Nor does anyone know enough to contradict it. As I stated in a previous post, that is what is reported about the kid. If you have other information, please share..

I've never seen anybody report that, and I've been curious about Hill for a long long time. Do you have a link?

Drafttek had him at the #5 receiver for like two or three months now, even though others thought it was a farce.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: * The 2012 Combine Drills!! *

Stephen Hill continues to impress - he's now put up the third best broad jump at the combine since 2006 behind Julio Jones and Jerome Simpson.

Johnson with a 6.88 in the 3-cone.. His Broad jump was 11'1".. mentioned earlier..