Defense? What defense!!!

[Deus Irae]

I've seen you on other teams forums trolling it up everywhere. The amazing thing is that you abuse people on your own team's forums too! I award you with the trophy for the best (worst) pats troll in all of the internets. rofl

Don't waste your time. Here, let this be a guide for you...

This message is hidden because patsfaninpittsburgh is on your ignore list.

The only time I even see his name is when I'm on a Windows computer, like I am for the next couple of hours. When I'm on one of my Macs and have Ffvb installed on Firefox, I don't even see his name, because all of his stuff is automatically blocked.

 

[goheels22002]

But I don't think anyone could compare our current D with something like the jets D and prove them to be on par. Both pass rush and secondary coverage need somehow to improve.

If you wait long enough, someone always brings up the Jets. It also raises the question of who has the best defense in AFC East.

I like the Pats up-front with Vince, Haynesworth, Ellis and Carter more than the Jets which should help stuff the run and push the pocket in on Sanchez who is not nearly the passer that Rivers was yesterday. The Jets clearly have a huge advantage in the secondary with Revis and Cromartie. Neither linebacking corps blows me away and they look like a wash with talent, and a mix of veterans and youth but nothing to remind me of the 1970s Steelers.

We'll see what Buffalo has to offer next week, but now the Pats look like they have a defense on par with any in the division and maybe a bit better.

 

[RodThePat]

And by struggled to slow down, you mean "forced 5 turnovers and one punt on 9 drives" right?

I think he means "gave up over 80% of third down conversions". You guys can talk about turnovers all you want, and the fact that this defense can recover the football is huge, but giving up thousands of yards and counting on turnovers to get the ball back without giving up a s**tton of points isn't the best strategy.

This isn't "bend but don't break" at all, as it can blow up on your face against a competent offense very quickly. Forcing turnovers is great, but that absolutely cannot be the only thing the defense is good at. We saw this exact same thing last season, and we know how it turned out.

 

[jetsjets]

Don't waste your time. Here, let this be a guide for you...



The only time I even see his name is when I'm on a Windows computer, like I am for the next couple of hours. When I'm on one of my Macs and have Ffvb installed on Firefox, I don't even see his name, because all of his stuff is automatically blocked.

Damn, I need to get that extension. It will help a bunch in a few places. thanks!

 

[Haley]

Tolbert had 9 carries for 10 yards, tripped over his own man on that goal line run, and put the ball on the carpet for the Patriots. He was often the Patriots' 12th man on defense. I was looking at that rather than looking at his catches, so you've got a point, and I should have offered that explanation in my post. I definitely considered him much more of an ally to the Patriots than an enemy, though.

Overall, I was counting Rivers, Jackson and Gates. It was 3 players, and the Patriots focused on removing 1, but got lit up by the combination of the other 2.

Here are yesterday's receiving numbers btw. And this doesn't include rushing.

Receiving 	REC 	YDS 	TD 	LG
V. Jackson 	10 	172 	2 	29
M. Tolbert	8 	73 	0 	21
R. Mathews 	7 	62 	0 	14
M. Floyd 	2 	59 	0 	36

When you say Tolbert had only 10 yards were you subtracting for the turnover or something? I kind of see what you are saying but I don't understand why you give a pass to Gates who caught nothing at all under coverage but a fail to Tolbert who caught a little under coverage. I guess you can argue the turnover but then, why give a pass on the other turnovers? It just seems inconsistent to ignore these other contributions, although honestly this is probably completely off topic since it has little to do with the Pats defense. Yeah, I'm just going to shut up now.

 

[Deus Irae]

Damn, I need to get that extension. It will help a bunch in a few places. thanks!

You can't really get it anymore. The guy stopped updating it a while back, and it's been deleted in most places. The only way you can get it for re-install is if you're using an older FF 3 version and you hunt the net for an older version of the addon.

That's why I'm stuck seeing that poster's name on Windows systems. I'd upgraded my FF on my Windows computers before I found out about the Ffvb being discontinued, and I couldn't go back.

 

[goheels22002]

You guys can talk about turnovers all you want, and the fact that this defense can recover the football is huge, but giving up thousands of yards and counting on turnovers to get the ball back without giving up a s**tton of points isn't the best strategy.

We saw this exact same thing last season, and we know how it turned out.

It turned out that in 2010 the Patriots led the NFL in turnover margin at 1.6 more takeaways than giveaways per game and with the best record in the league at 14 - 2.

Seems like an okay strategy to me.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here are yesterday's receiving numbers btw. And this doesn't include rushing.

Receiving 	REC 	YDS 	TD 	LG
V. Jackson 	10 	172 	2 	29
M. Tolbert	8 	73 	0 	21
R. Mathews 	7 	62 	0 	14
M. Floyd 	2 	59 	0 	36

When you say Tolbert had only 10 yards were you subtracting for the turnover or something? I kind of see what you are saying but I don't understand why you give a pass to Gates who caught nothing at all under coverage but a fail to Tolbert who caught a little under coverage. I guess you can argue the turnover but then, why give a pass on the other turnovers? It just seems inconsistent to ignore these other contributions, although honestly this is probably completely off topic since it has little to do with the Pats defense. Yeah, I'm just going to shut up now.

You're looking at his receptions as an outlet receiver. I was referring to his 10 yards on 9 carries, his tripping over his own teammate on 4th down and his fumble.

 

[Deus Irae]

It turned out that in 2010 the Patriots led the NFL in turnover margin at 1.6 more takeaways than giveaways per game and with the best record in the league at 14 - 2.

Seems like an okay strategy to me.

How'd that work in the playoffs?

 

[Dessalines]

Yes, this defense must get better or there will be no SB this year.

Yes the offense is just so pretty and is going gang busters and that was the case last year. What knocked us out of the playoffs? A good defense.

You cannot win with just one facet, both are required. The PATS defense has potential but its not where it needs to be just yet. I trust it will get there.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Don't waste your time. Here, let this be a guide for you...



The only time I even see his name is when I'm on a Windows computer, like I am for the next couple of hours. When I'm on one of my Macs and have Ffvb installed on Firefox, I don't even see his name, because all of his stuff is automatically blocked.[/QUO

It looks like I found you a new BFF!!!!!!!

Maybe ganggreen.com can be your eharmony

 

[goheels22002]

How'd that work in the playoffs?

Fair question.

If you look back at just playoff games for the Patriots, in the Superbowl years '01, '03, '04 including the 2007 season, the Pats averaged between plus 0.5 to plus 1.5 more takeaways each year that they advanced to or won the NFL championship.

Last January, the Jets did not turn the ball over against the Patriots and Brady threw one interception finishing with -1.0 takeaway ratio and they lost.

Win the turnover battle and more often than not you win the game. A turnover is just as valid a way to stop a drive as a punt. Better, in most cases due to field position.

 

[Deus Irae]

Fair question.

If you look back at just playoff games for the Patriots, in the Superbowl years '01, '03, '04 including the 2007 season, the Pats averaged between plus 0.5 to plus 1.5 more takeaways each year that they advanced to or won the NFL championship.

Last January, the Jets did not turn the ball over against the Patriots and Brady threw one interception finishing with -1.0 takeaway ratio and they lost.

Win the turnover battle and more often than not you win the game. A turnover is just as valid a way to stop a drive as a punt. Better, in most cases due to field position.

And, since turnovers are not a reliable source to build your team around, that kills your argument, because it's obviously not an "ok" strategy to base your team around in the playoffs.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I think he means "gave up over 80% of third down conversions". You guys can talk about turnovers all you want, and the fact that this defense can recover the football is huge, but giving up thousands of yards and counting on turnovers to get the ball back without giving up a s**tton of points isn't the best strategy.

This isn't "bend but don't break" at all, as it can blow up on your face against a competent offense very quickly. Forcing turnovers is great, but that absolutely cannot be the only thing the defense is good at. We saw this exact same thing last season, and we know how it turned out.

Actually it was the perfect strategy as witnessed by a 2 TD victory over a highly competent offense.

Also, no you didn't see this last year so saying how it turned out makes no sense.

 

[Kontradiction]

I actually thought that the defense played much better yesterday than they did this past Monday against the Dolphins. They're still letting up way too many yards and McCourty still has to remember to turn his head around on passes that are thrown at him, but we held the Chargers to 7 points deep into the second half yesterday and our run defense looked decent. In all, they improved from their Week 1 performance, but they still have a ways to go. I think Belichick would definitely agree with that last sentence.

 

[RodThePat]

Actually it was the perfect strategy as witnessed by a 2 TD victory over a highly competent offense.

Also, no you didn't see this last year so saying how it turned out makes no sense.

It's not a strategy, in that it relied on your DT picking off a pass, a dumb throw under no pressure right into the hands of Brown, and Tolbert running around like a dumbass when he could've plowed forward for 2 yards.

We didn't see this last year? Are you serious? In 2010 it was the exact same thing. We had the same defense who couldn't get off the field on third downs and had to rely on turnovers to stop the opposition. In the playoffs we couldn't take the ball away, the Jets limited our offensive opportunities and, because we weren't perfect on offense, we lost the game. This team still relies on turnovers and offensive perfection to win ballgames.

When that happens, sure, it looks great, but Brady will struggle eventually and if you can't stop anybody without picking off a dumb throw or recovering a fumble, you're going to be in trouble.

Oh, and one more thing. If that's such a successful strategy, I take it you were completely relaxed and in control when the Chargers were driving down the field late in the game with a chance to take the lead, right? You must have been absolutely positive the defense would somehow come up with a turnover to stop them from scoring, because, hey, that's what they do, right?

 

[goheels22002]

And, since turnovers are not a reliable source to build your team around, that kills your argument, because it's obviously not an "ok" strategy to base your team around in the playoffs.

Out of five years in the sample, you advance 100% of the time if you win the turnover battle. Jets once and Pats four times.

Just to play along let's look at 2009. The Ravens took the ball away 4 times to the Patriots 2 in that playoff debacle. We're still at 100% success rate for the team with more takeaways.

The data suggest that the only strategy is to build a defense around the premise of taking the ball away from the opposition more times than the opposing defense takes it away from you.

 

[Deus Irae]

Out of five years in the sample, you advance 100% of the time if you win the turnover battle. Jets once and Pats four times.

Just to play along let's look at 2009. The Ravens took the ball away 4 times to the Patriots 2 in that playoff debacle. We're still at 100% success rate for the team with more takeaways.

The data suggest that the only strategy is to build a defense around the premise of taking the ball away from the opposition than the opposition defense takes it away from yours.

Actually, the data suggests that it's time for the Patriots to improve the defense so that winning the turnover battle is not essential to winning the game. No Tom Brady led team should be 100% locked into a turnover battle for victories. Look, I get that you want to think everything is sunshine and rainbows for the Patriots, but it's not. Belichick has made it clear that he understands this with his dramatic overhaul of the defense. Now, the hope is that time, and maybe some personnel changes at safety, will lead to significant improvement as the team adjusts and improves.

 

[Synovia]

Tolbert had 9 carries for 10 yards, tripped over his own man on that goal line run, and put the ball on the carpet for the Patriots. He was often the Patriots' 12th man on defense. I was looking at that rather than looking at his catches, so you've got a point, and I should have offered that explanation in my post. I definitely considered him much more of an ally to the Patriots than an enemy, though.

.

So, when the Patriots do something good, its the opponents fault? Its not that Mayo read the play perfectly? its not the the DE knocked his guy completely to the ground? Its that Tolbert caught his foot on the blocker who'd just been destroyed, at the same time he was getting stood up by Mayo?

Yeah Dues, the Pats had nothing to do with that.

 

[stcjones]

I can't believe that we can be an elite team with the porous defense that we continue to put out on the field. Historically, we have not had a pass rush or a secondary that puts up a solid effort against decent passing quarterbacks. The lack of a pass rush turns average, and even less than average quarterbacks into Hall of Famers, while our DBs, either through lack of good coaching or NFL quality skills are unable to stifle any kind of passing attack. Today's game is a perfect example of what we can expect to see week after week, except the offense will get shut down and we will end up losing. Do you remember last season? Great season, but unable to win in the playoffs. Get used to it. I love the Pats, but reality is going to kill us.

I think you make a very valid point. In fact there is equal talk on NFL Network and BSPN about our weak defense, as there is about the brilliance of Tom Brady and the O. I am hopeful that they will get it altogether as the season progresses. We have alot of NEW personnel that need to get used to playing together and perhaps get comfortable in a new D. With that being said, I think everyone expected a much more aggressive pash rush to be happening with all the vet DL that were added...and we haven't consistently seen that yet. The secondary is going to be a work in progress.. I think everyone can see that. I think the biggest surprise has been with McCourty. He got his jock stolen by Marshall last week and then Jackson made him look silly alot...he needs to get back to what made him gr8 last year....and where is bodden?