idle thoughts...a thread about football

[Oswlek]

Come on. He is a guy who can make the team, or could be out of football. There are 50 Myron Priors in the league and 50 more sitting home. I'm not saying he is undeserving of a roster spot, but he must fight and claw to earn one.

I assume you mean 3-4?I don't know where you saw terrific promise. He got on the field and didnt embarrass himself but his play was thoroughly JAG-level.

He would probably get picked up and have a chance to make a team, but no one would be beating down the door to get him, and whoever was in his place wouldn't make much of a difference. He is a JAG at this point. Perhaps he can develop into more, but as of now he is what he is.

I dont think BB has ever kept 8. 7 is possible, 6 is more the norm.

1) There are not 50 Myron Pryors sitting at him, he is a viable NFL player who is a little miscast for NE's system but still offers value as a sub rusher. Pryor could be a starter at DT for Indy or some other team that prefers those quick fireplug guys.

2) Yeah, sorry, I meant 3/4. For my money, a 7th round rookie playing JAG level football is "terrific promise". Most first and second round DL don't play as well as Deaderick did in their rookie years.

3) 6 is the norm, but I'm pretty sure they kept 7 just last year (Wilfork, Wright, Pryror, Brace, Love, Deaderick, Warren) and they still ran into depth issues. BB has historically addressed the areas whose depth was the most exposed the prior season. If I had to guess, I'd say 7 make the squad.

 

[Ring 6]

1) There are not 50 Myron Pryors sitting at him, he is a viable NFL player who is a little miscast for NE's system but still offers value as a sub rusher. Pryor could be a starter at DT for Indy or some other team that prefers those quick fireplug guys.

2) Yeah, sorry, I meant 3/4. For my money, a 7th round rookie playing JAG level football is "terrific promise". Most first and second round DL don't play as well as Deaderick did in their rookie years.

3) 6 is the norm, but I'm pretty sure they kept 7 just last year (Wilfork, Wright, Pryror, Brace, Love, Deaderick, Warren) and they still ran into depth issues. BB has historically addressed the areas whose depth was the most exposed the prior season. If I had to guess, I'd say 7 make the squad.

We disagree ver much on Prior. I hope you are right.
Deaderick played, I dont think the quality of his play is something to get too excited about, unless you start from the point of view that as a 7th rounder making the team is good. Thats exactly what I'm talking about a guy who was a surprise to make the team and got on the field due to attrition and was mediocre at best is a fringe player.
7 is a fair guess. It will either be 6 or 7 IMO, and that decision wont be made until final cuts.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Seeing our cap situation I'd make a big run at Ngata. I'm talking about 4 years 12 mil per. I wouldn't think twice about giving up 2 firsts for him. Even if you traded those 2 firsts for a higher pick you couldn't reasonably expect to get a player of Ngata's quality.

Worst case scenario you drive up the price for the Ravens.

Best case you have the 2 best guys in the NFL for the Pats NT and RDE spots. Your DL creates absolute havoc vaunting the defense into top 5.

Love Ngata but no player is worth 2 first round picks. We've seen it time and time again. This team is built on being deep with GOOD players at each position not on having superstars.

As for the discussion about Mark Sanchez... Well I think there are merits to both camps arguments. Sanchez for the most part statistically looks like a terrible QB. Mediocre at best. However we also can't deny that he seems to get it done at the end of football games, which is a strong point for him.

It occurs to me that Sanchez is one of those QBs that just wins ugly. He will win but typically it won't be in a 'blowout' type style where he performs great the whole game. Rather if his team can just hang around, hang around, the guy will raise his level at the end of the game and can be very dangerous. In that regards he kind of reminds me of a Jake Plummer or a Kenny Stabler type QB.

Not terribly accurate, not very consistent, but with the talent to make things happen and hurt the other team IF things are close at the end. And really most playoff games are close, scrappy affairs, so this kind of QB becomes more valuable and a bigger threat in the postseason.

What trajectory will Sanchez take? As PFK mentioned the 3rd year is pretty important for a QB. I honestly don't know. We'll just have to wait and see. It might be realistic for him to end up somewhere between Plummer and Stabler who I compare mostly in terms of style. Although his completion percentage of 55% so far is lower on average than either of them.

Jake Plummer

Mark Sanchez

Kenny Stabler

 

[Oswlek]

We disagree ver much on Prior. I hope you are right.
Deaderick played, I dont think the quality of his play is something to get too excited about, unless you start from the point of view that as a 7th rounder making the team is good. Thats exactly what I'm talking about a guy who was a surprise to make the team and got on the field due to attrition and was mediocre at best is a fringe player.
7 is a fair guess. It will either be 6 or 7 IMO, and that decision wont be made until final cuts.

FWIW, Deaderick didn't see the field because of attrition. When he was getting solid minutes, even starting, Wright, Brace, Warren and Wilfork were all healthy.

He may very well be cut this year, but it will be because of his head, not his talent.

 

[Professor Frink]

FWIW, Deaderick didn't see the field because of attrition. When he was getting solid minutes, even starting, Wright, Brace, Warren and Wilfork were all healthy.

He may very well be cut this year, but it will be because of his head, not his talent.

I agree with you as far Deadrick goes, I think if he were selected higher in the draft and performed the same way people would be far more excited about him. I really wouldn't be surprised if he locked down the RDE spot this year and provided the highest level of play they've had since Seymour.

But as far as Myron Pryor goes, I'm curious what you've seen that I've been missing. I agree he might be a higher impact player in a different system, but that's really not relevant to the Patriots.

He doesn't provide anything that Mike Wright can't do better (not a knock, Wright is a good player) which means the only time he really sees the field is when he can line up next to Wright. That's only gonna be 3rd and long and other must-pass situations, and even then he hasn't proven to be anything more then OK.

Perhaps he is one of these guys who gets better every year (Mike Wright) but as of right now I just haven't seen him play at a high enough level to justify the praise you've been giving him.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I agree with you as far Deadrick goes, I think if he were selected higher in the draft and performed the same way people would be far more excited about him. I really wouldn't be surprised if he locked down the RDE spot this year and provided the highest level of play they've had since Seymour.

Did you just compare Deadrick to Seymour? He really doesn't strike me as anything close to that kind of player. The reason the DL was so poor last season is that we had nobody on the edges that performed even close to Warren or Wright's level. We also had to resort to starting JAGs like Gerard Warren.

What strikes me most about the 2011 draft, is that in a draft so DEEP with front 7 defensive players and particularly DL, the Pats didn't take even a single bite. Perhaps that is because they feel very comfortable with a DL of Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Brace, and Stroud. But I don't see how Deadrick, Love, or Pryor have distinguished themselves as being anything other than JAG replacement level players.

 

[Oswlek]

I agree with you as far Deadrick goes, I think if he were selected higher in the draft and performed the same way people would be far more excited about him. I really wouldn't be surprised if he locked down the RDE spot this year and provided the highest level of play they've had since Seymour.

But as far as Myron Pryor goes, I'm curious what you've seen that I've been missing. I agree he might be a higher impact player in a different system, but that's really not relevant to the Patriots.

He doesn't provide anything that Mike Wright can't do better (not a knock, Wright is a good player) which means the only time he really sees the field is when he can line up next to Wright. That's only gonna be 3rd and long and other must-pass situations, and even then he hasn't proven to be anything more then OK.

Perhaps he is one of these guys who gets better every year (Mike Wright) but as of right now I just haven't seen him play at a high enough level to justify the praise you've been giving him.

Here is a snippet from another post I made about Pryor:

Pryor was battling a back injury all year, which was one of the big reasons why NE's pass rush lagged at times. On top of that, Pryor is a 4-3 UT, which translates as a sub rushing DT with NE, a position that Deaderick, Brace, Love, Warren and Stroud don't fit here. Only Wright and Wilfork do what Pryor does better than Pryor does, but Pryor allows Vince to get some occassional rest.

I'd go further than calling Wright a "good" player, he is a very good player who commands consistent double teams. I agree that Pryor anywhere near as good as Wright, but I see a lot of similarity to Wright's game back in 2006. I also don't contest that Wilfork is better than Pryor even as a sub rusher, but relying on Big Vince to play every snap is not exactly ideal.

 

[Oswlek]

Did you just compare Deadrick to Seymour? He really doesn't strike me as anything close to that kind of player. The reason the DL was so poor last season is that we had nobody on the edges that performed even close to Warren or Wright's level. We also had to resort to starting JAGs like Gerard Warren.

What strikes me most about the 2011 draft, is that in a draft so DEEP with front 7 defensive players and particularly DL, the Pats didn't take even a single bite. Perhaps that is because they feel very comfortable with a DL of Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Brace, and Stroud. But I don't see how Deadrick, Love, or Pryor have distinguished themselves as being anything other than JAG replacement level players.

How much did you expect Deaderick and Love to show last year? Again, JAG level performance for a rookie is a good starting place. If they don't improve we have a problem, but they showed at least some capability (Deaderick more than Love, though Love was playing a much tougher position).

I can see why people think the two Cam's might be better than Pryor, but you don't spend a first rounder on a guy who you think will only fill a sub rushing role.

Ultimately, rookies get way overvalued. Most don't ever even become JAG level (I bet at least two of Deaderick/Brace/Love become better than 50% of the DL picked in the 2011 draft). At the end of the regular season, I was convinced NE would bypass front 7 help in the draft. After the Jet game I changed my tune a little, but it seems that BB didn't let one game swing his thinking like I did.

 

[supafly]

1) There are not 50 Myron Pryors sitting at him, he is a viable NFL player who is a little miscast for NE's system but still offers value as a sub rusher. Pryor could be a starter at DT for Indy or some other team that prefers those quick fireplug guys.

2) Yeah, sorry, I meant 3/4. For my money, a 7th round rookie playing JAG level football is "terrific promise". Most first and second round DL don't play as well as Deaderick did in their rookie years.

3) 6 is the norm, but I'm pretty sure they kept 7 just last year (Wilfork, Wright, Pryror, Brace, Love, Deaderick, Warren) and they still ran into depth issues. BB has historically addressed the areas whose depth was the most exposed the prior season. If I had to guess, I'd say 7 make the squad.

I agree with your thoughts on Myron Pryor, although I can also see the other side too. I can see it both ways. Many were a lot higher on him after his first year--last year he didn't seem to be the same, and apparently had back issues that were significant. We don't have that 'he showed us signs as a rookie' factor right now, although some people do have short memories too.

We all know what he can offer at times, and one only needs to go as far as the Favre hit where he knocked him out of the game to see that. But I agree with Andy too, he isn't anything that we'd cry about if he ended up leaving.

I do think he has something to offer, but the competition will be stiff too. There were some who did not even see him as having a locked roster spot last year--I certainly did not agree with that. This year, I am not as sure due to his performance/injury from his 2nd season, although if I had to make a guess, I would imagine that he has earned a solid chance. He also offers some sort of knowledge of the system too, so that can't hurt his cause. What may hurt is the competition.

I couldn't see how in the world there wouldn't be 7 DL last year, and this year proves no differently in my eyes. Just looking at the top 10 options gives you reason to believe that they all offer something in some way, many for depth, many in sub situations (over half the time). Especially when you consider the late season depth issues and horrible injury turnover from last yr, I don't see how 6 is even that possible this yr either. With that said, I am sure that Belichick has a much better read of what he expects, so I wouldn't be shocked with 6--just surprised at how he got there, who is cut, etc, especially with the guys that you have to work with.

I believe the wildcard is the RDE. In the past when 6 has been the norm (the majority), we had 3 solid up front starters, a sub guy or 2, and a backup who could move around a bit for depth, and had some versatility. Obviously those meshed into each other with a player like Jarvis Green, just the same as Brace, Pryor, or even Wright does currently. Since Seymour left, we do not have a 'solid' RDE, and have been using rotations for that spot. That will continue, as the team uses veteran journeymen to take on that role. Even if they would've selected a rookie RDE such as Cam Jordan, Heyward etc--we probably would've stuck with 7 for one more year this year.

1.Wilfork (obviously a lock)
2.T.Warren (obviously a lock IMO)
3.Wright (Has had plenty of time to heal from the concussion)
4.Stroud (Belichick obviously has some sort of plan to use him, may even start)
5.Brace (2nd round pick won't get cut--at least not this yr)
6.G.Warren (no one has any basis one way or another)
7.Pryor (knowledge of system, has proven worth/depth in subs, should be good for another year)
8.Deaderick (proved his depth as a lt rounder--could be on the bubble due to off the field concerns/attitude)
9.Love
10. Anything above this is on the bubble/camp fodder

 

[Deus Irae]

1) There are not 50 Myron Pryors sitting at him, he is a viable NFL player who is a little miscast for NE's system but still offers value as a sub rusher. Pryor could be a starter at DT for Indy or some other team that prefers those quick fireplug guys.

You'll find Pryor's level of player getting cut from team after team every year.

2) Yeah, sorry, I meant 3/4. For my money, a 7th round rookie playing JAG level football is "terrific promise". Most first and second round DL don't play as well as Deaderick did in their rookie years.

Deaderick isn't very good either.

If it weren't for the shortened offseason, I'd have looked for either veteran free agents or UDFAs to have come in and pressed both Pryor and Deaderick for jobs. As it is, it's likely that at least one of them will get the ax, and both could find themselves unemployed, especially if BB decides to bring G. Warren back for another year.

 

[Oswlek]

You'll find Pryor's level of player getting cut from team after team every year.

Deaderick isn't very good either.

If it weren't for the shortened offseason, I'd have looked for either veteran free agents or UDFAs to have come in and pressed both Pryor and Deaderick for jobs. As it is, it's likely that at least one of them will get the ax, and both could find themselves unemployed, especially if BB decides to bring G. Warren back for another year.

If only NE had a coach more willing to make midseason changes to the scrubs on the end of the bench. Damn you Bill Belichick!

 

[patfanken]

You'll find Pryor's level of player getting cut from team after team every year.



Deaderick isn't very good either.

If it weren't for the shortened offseason, I'd have looked for either veteran free agents or UDFAs to have come in and pressed both Pryor and Deaderick for jobs. As it is, it's likely that at least one of them will get the ax, and both could find themselves unemployed, especially if BB decides to bring G. Warren back for another year.

For someone who really doesn't have a strong position in this debate about the DL, I find your comments here, DI, to be rather arbitrary and without merit.

Deadrick EARNED playing time when the much of the DL (outside of Ty Warren) was healthy. Do you think BB was just being capricious when let him on the field? Granted he ended the season poorly, but the discussion here is about TALENT....and clearly Deadrick has a lot more "talent" than his draft position would indicate. He's NOT just another JAG.

Pryor is ANOTHER guy who, over the last 2 years has EARNED a lot of playing time. Granted he's more of UT in a 4-3 scheme, but the fact is that the Pats of THIS decade are in a 4-3 or 4-2 over 40% of the time, so having a guy with his skill set is not just a luxury, its a necessity

Time to use a little common sense DI. In possibly the best draft for DLmen since 2003, BB chose to pass over and over again. Do you REALLY think he would have done that if he thought that Deadrick was "not very good" and Pryor was "at the level of players who get cut all over the league". ESPECIALLY when you have Wright's concussion risk, and G Warren being a FA.

Jees, DI, it just doesn't make any sense. I know you have a right to your opinion, but your post was written as if you were making a god-like pronouncement, like "I have said it, thus it is so. I don't need to justify my remarks"

 

[Professor Frink]

Did you just compare Deadrick to Seymour? He really doesn't strike me as anything close to that kind of player. The reason the DL was so poor last season is that we had nobody on the edges that performed even close to Warren or Wright's level. We also had to resort to starting JAGs like Gerard Warren.

What strikes me most about the 2011 draft, is that in a draft so DEEP with front 7 defensive players and particularly DL, the Pats didn't take even a single bite. Perhaps that is because they feel very comfortable with a DL of Warren, Wilfork, Wright, Brace, and Stroud. But I don't see how Deadrick, Love, or Pryor have distinguished themselves as being anything other than JAG replacement level players.

No, I definitely did NOT compare Deadrick to Seymour. Rather, I compared him to Seymour's successor's, which were Green in 09 and G Warren in 10. What I was saying was that it's possible he could play at a higher level than either of them did.

He doesn't have the explosiveness or athleticism that Seymour has, and that was the biggest reason for his fall on draft day. But what I see is a big, strong guy, who plays with good technique and understands his role within the defense. I think he can turn into a pretty solid rotational player, kind of in the mold of a Bobby Hamilton or Anthony Pleasant.

 

[Deus Irae]

For someone who really doesn't have a strong position in this debate about the DL, I find your comments here, DI, to be rather arbitrary and without merit.

Ken, let's realize that we start from different baselines. I try to give an honest, unbiased analysis of what I see from the team and players, because I don't believe that it makes the games more fun for me if I've been lying to myself about the team/player potentials and skill levels. You prefer to come from the homer perspective of all things Patriots are great, and you worry about objectivity only as a secondary item. That will frequently put us at odds when it comes to discussing this stuff.

Now, having pointed that out, I'll also point out that my comments were certainly no more arbitrary or without merit than what you've posted.

Deadrick EARNED playing time when the much of the DL (outside of Ty Warren) was healthy. Do you think BB was just being capricious when let him on the field? Granted he ended the season poorly, but the discussion here is about TALENT....and clearly Deadrick has a lot more "talent" than his draft position would indicate. He's NOT just another JAG.

He also "earned" his playing time while competing against other borderline players. The Patriots had one defensive lineman consistently worth a damn last year (I don't put Wright here because of his injury), and Deaderick was not that player.

Pryor is ANOTHER guy who, over the last 2 years has EARNED a lot of playing time. Granted he's more of UT in a 4-3 scheme, but the fact is that the Pats of THIS decade are in a 4-3 or 4-2 over 40% of the time, so having a guy with his skill set is not just a luxury, its a necessity

Pryor's done nothing of the kind. Last year, he got 21.5% of the snaps, even with Wilfork moving around and Ty Warren not being around, and with Mike Wright missing a large chunk of the season due to his situation. You know who he beat out in snaps? Deaderick, Love and Cohen, 3 other players who'll be pressing to make the team. Brace missed 3 games and was limited in others due to injury, and he still got more playing time.

Time to use a little common sense DI. In possibly the best draft for DLmen since 2003, BB chose to pass over and over again. Do you REALLY think he would have done that if he thought that Deadrick was "not very good" and Pryor was "at the level of players who get cut all over the league". ESPECIALLY when you have Wright's concussion risk, and G Warren being a FA.

I've used common sense, Ken. You just don't like what it's led to. That's your choice, but don't admonish me about common sense when you're writing some of the silly stuff that you had in your O.P.. For crying out loud, "Clearly the RB group got enormously upgraded"? That's an absolutely ridiculous thing to claim.

Jees, DI, it just doesn't make any sense. I know you have a right to your opinion, but your post was written as if you were making a god-like pronouncement, like "I have said it, thus it is so. I don't need to justify my remarks"

My post was written as was needed. I was pointing out something that I felt should be fairly obvious to anyone who's followed the team for the past couple of years. Deaderick is now going to be competing for a job against Brace, Ty Warren and Stroud, as well as G. Warren if he's re-signed, and that's just the 'big' names in the bunch. In a numbers game, his job is in jeopardy. Pryor, who's shown essentially nothing during his two years, is a bit more fortunate because he plays in the middle and has less competition for a spot , but it wouldn't take much to upgrade over him. Sub rushers with a half sack over 2 years aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

Now, maybe both players will become unstoppable forces of nature this season. I'd love to see it. Hell, I'd love to see them even become decent players who are clearly capable of getting the job done. Until I do, though, I'll accept that they're both borderline players who are probably lucky that the lockout has happened, because it's limited the competition they likely would have faced otherwise.

 

[Oswlek]

Ken, let's realize that we start from different baselines. I try to give an honest, unbiased analysis of what I see from the team and players, because I don't believe that it makes the games more fun for me if I've been lying to myself about the team/player potentials and skill levels. You prefer to come from the homer perspective of all things Patriots are great, and you worry about objectivity only as a secondary item. That will frequently put us at odds when it comes to discussing this stuff.

Now, having pointed that out, I'll also point out that my comments were certainly no more arbitrary or without merit than what you've posted.

Translation: I'm smart, you're an overeager idiot.

You've got a compelling argument so far!

He also "earned" his playing time while competing against other borderline players. The Patriots had one defensive lineman consistently worth a damn last year (I don't put Wright here because of his injury), and Deaderick was not that player.

But, wait a minute, you just said this before:

You'll find Pryor's level of player getting cut from team after team every year.

Does that mean that NE's entire DL roster are basically street free agent caliber? I wish someone had let Bill know before the draft!

Pryor's done nothing of the kind. Last year, he got 21.5% of the snaps, even with Wilfork moving around and Ty Warren not being around, and with Mike Wright missing a large chunk of the season due to his situation. You know who he beat out in snaps? Deaderick, Love and Cohen, 3 other players who'll be pressing to make the team. Brace missed 3 games and was limited in others due to injury, and he still got more playing time.

Interesting....

Is there any reason why you don't mention the fact that Pryor missed 7 games with a back injury last year? Why exactly is Brace's 3 missed games supposed to be a critical point when that isn't even half as many as Pryor himself missed?

Missing half the season and still playing 21.5% of the snaps seems like a pretty positive statement to me.

Pryor, who's shown essentially nothing during his two years, is a bit more fortunate because he plays in the middle and has less competition for a spot , but it wouldn't take much to upgrade over him. Sub rushers with a half sack over 2 years aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

What is fascinating to me is that BB has kept around such a scrub for two seasons now. Not only kept him around, but played him nearly half of the snaps in games he was active last year, despite beng injured!

And then, when that injury got too much to handle, you would have thought Pryor would get kicked to the curb, right? He is street free agent calber as it is, so how much value does he have injured?

BB has clearly lost his marbles, eh Deuce? Not only did he not release Myron, he wasted a roster spot for 7 weeks waiting for him to come back from injury instead of just putting him on IR.

Now, if you were using hyperbole and really meant to say, "Pryor is a guy who either needs to improve and the team will look to upgrade" then I don't think you'd get an argument from anyone on that assessment. But the street FA comment is pure fiction, unless you think you are a better evaluater than the coach.

 

[patfanken]

Thanks for your detailed reply. Pardon me if I'm a bit more general in my response since I'm a bit short on time.

You lost me in your opening paragraph when you tried to set our differing opinions as being on my side, the unmitigated homer, while you make your judgements as the cool, pragmatic, and wise observer. Thats just BS.

I've played the game.....extensively.

I've coached the game .....extensively

Now ALL that knowledge doesn't make me smarter, or superior to anyone one else on this board. Quite the opposite. All the years of playing and coaching just give me is perhaps a better understanding about what I DON'T know.

So I understand the process of making a decision to start a 7th round rookie EARLY in the season, before all the injuries, isn't easily made. The player had to have DONE something over a period of weeks to put him out there. BB must have clearly seen something you missed.

Now I rarely make anything more than superficial comments and judgements based on what I see on TV. Again its because what I DON'T know. I DON'T get to see the coaches tape, so I can't get the whole picture of the play. I DON'T know the assignments and how other people's play affects the player I'm watching. I DON'T know the full formation of the opposition so I can't know about adjustments that were or were not made to things like motion, etc

And despite my own embarrassing post draft rant, I understand that it is fair to infer that BB's lack of movement on the DL in the draft, that he is relatively happy with the players he has on his current roster. Clearly happier than you are..

Deadrick DID earn that playing time and NOT just because everyone was injured, but you sort of ignored that in your reply. You are also disingenuous in your snap stat with Pryor. If you could access that info, then you had to know that Pryor ALSO missed a good number of games because of his own injury, but somehow that didn't make it to your rebuttal.

Now I'm not trying to say that ANY of these guys will be great. What I'm saying is from all the inferential (thank god for spell check) information we KNOW, BB thinks these guys can be productive pros on HIS DL.....and thus so do I. Although we know that Bill is fallible and makes mistakes, I'm guessing he has a much better handle on this than either you or I.

So in the end I'm NOT being a homer for defending the potential of Deadrick and Pryor, I'm just using common sense to rebut was clearly an arbitrary opinion based on you own TV observations...."not that there's anything wrong with that". I just took some umbrage with the "tone" of the post I responded to.

BOTTOM LINE: Now that it looks like that there will be a normal training camp and at least some FA period, we will be able to see over the next 3 months who was right. BTW- it will but up to you to eost the "I told you so" or "Mea Culpas" , because by the time we will know, I will long since have forgotten the debate. Getting old sucks.

 

[Deus Irae]

Translation: I'm smart, you're an overeager idiot.

You've got a compelling argument so far!

That's pretty obviously not the translation. despite the fact that Ken's post to me was one that involved words and phrases like "arbitrary and without merit" and "Time to use a little common sense DI", I was polite, noting our different starting points and stating that my opinions are no more arbitrary, and no more without merit, than his. Since you can't be bothered to start your post with honesty, and decided to go with the stupid attack, I won't bother with the rest of your post.

 

[Oswlek]

That's pretty obviously not the translation. despite the fact that Ken's post to me was one that involved words and phrases like "arbitrary and without merit" and "Time to use a little common sense DI", I was polite, noting our different starting points and stating that my opinions are no more arbitrary, and no more without merit, than his. Since you can't be bothered to start your post with honesty, and decided to go with the stupid attack, I won't bother with the rest of your post.

Really? Seems I wasn't the only one who got that message..

You lost me in your opening paragraph when you tried to set our differing opinions as being on my side, the unmitigated homer, while you make your judgements as the cool, pragmatic, and wise observer. Thats just BS.

You know I dig you, Deus, but if you honestly think that your post didn't come off as more than a tad arrogant, then you might want to read it again.

It's too bad you skipped past the rest of my post, though. Some pretty useful information in there....

 

[signbabybrady]

That's pretty obviously not the translation. despite the fact that Ken's post to me was one that involved words and phrases like "arbitrary and without merit" and "Time to use a little common sense DI", I was polite, noting our different starting points and stating that my opinions are no more arbitrary, and no more without merit, than his. Since you can't be bothered to start your post with honesty, and decided to go with the stupid attack, I won't bother with the rest of your post.

Saying someone is wrong because you think he is a homer and you think you are being objective is pretty insulting too. Especially when you consider the length of some of Kens posts which are obviously more thought out then just rah rah my team is the best. and while Ken may not have found it that way I pretty much stopped reading what you had to say at that point.

I consider myself to be homer but doesnt mean I am incapable of thinking objectively. To me it means giving the benifit of the doubt when I cant clearly objectively decifer it on my own (think about this when you consider the success this team has had an objective opinion can very easily be considered homer).

 

[Deus Irae]

Thanks for your detailed reply. Pardon me if I'm a bit more general in my response since I'm a bit short on time.

You lost me in your opening paragraph when you tried to set our differing opinions as being on my side, the unmitigated homer, while you make your judgements as the cool, pragmatic, and wise observer. Thats just BS.

I've played the game.....extensively.

I've coached the game .....extensively

Now ALL that knowledge doesn't make me smarter, or superior to anyone one else on this board. Quite the opposite. All the years of playing and coaching just give me is perhaps a better understanding about what I DON'T know.

So I understand the process of making a decision to start a 7th round rookie EARLY in the season, before all the injuries, isn't easily made. The player had to have DONE something over a period of weeks to put him out there. BB must have clearly seen something you missed.

Now I rarely make anything more than superficial comments and judgements based on what I see on TV. Again its because what I DON'T know. I DON'T get to see the coaches tape, so I can't get the whole picture of the play. I DON'T know the assignments and how other people's play affects the player I'm watching. I DON'T know the full formation of the opposition so I can't know about adjustments that were or were not made to things like motion, etc

And despite my own embarrassing post draft rant, I understand that it is fair to infer that BB's lack of movement on the DL in the draft, that he is relatively happy with the players he has on his current roster. Clearly happier than you are..

Deadrick DID earn that playing time and NOT just because everyone was injured, but you sort of ignored that in your reply. You are also disingenuous in your snap stat with Pryor. If you could access that info, then you had to know that Pryor ALSO missed a good number of games because of his own injury, but somehow that didn't make it to your rebuttal.

Now I'm not trying to say that ANY of these guys will be great. What I'm saying is from all the inferential (thank god for spell check) information we KNOW, BB thinks these guys can be productive pros on HIS DL.....and thus so do I. Although we know that Bill is fallible and makes mistakes, I'm guessing he has a much better handle on this than either you or I.

So in the end I'm NOT being a homer for defending the potential of Deadrick and Pryor, I'm just using common sense to rebut was clearly an arbitrary opinion based on you own TV observations...."not that there's anything wrong with that". I just took some umbrage with the "tone" of the post I responded to.

BOTTOM LINE: Now that it looks like that there will be a normal training camp and at least some FA period, we will be able to see over the next 3 months who was right. BTW- it will but up to you to eost the "I told you so" or "Mea Culpas" , because by the time we will know, I will long since have forgotten the debate. Getting old sucks.

Actually, your post-draft rant was the first time in a long time that you'd approached things with anything approaching an objective, non-biased angle, and it was some of your best stuff in recent memory. It might not all have been accurate or correct in the long run, but at least it showed an ability to use your mind freely rather than serving as another of the team parrots.

This is a message board that's set up to talk football and the Patriots. If "BB says/did" is the end all and be all, what the hell are you bothering to post for, since we can just get team press releases and don't need your input? If it's not (and it's not), then your post is irrelevant, because the whole point is discussion. You know.... a thread about football, meaning BB can be questioned, just as his decisions can, and we don't have to pretend the guy's a freakin' deity.

I also am amused that you're trying to infer anything from BB, who's supposed to be one that plays it so close to the vest and almost never denigrates a player. Did you expect him to say "They all sucked or were hurt, and I had to throw someone out there"?

And, yes, you are being a homer. That absolutely ridiculous assumption about the running backs should have told you that, beyond question.