idle thoughts...a thread about football

[Deus Irae]

Saying someone is wrong because you think he is a homer and you think you are being objective is pretty insulting too.

I didn't say that. I didn't say anything close to that. In fact, I was defending my post against a charge from Ken that my post had no merit. In other words, you've got it completely backwards. You saw what you wanted to see, and you might ask yourself why that is.

 

[Deus Irae]

Really? Seems I wasn't the only one who got that message..



You know I dig you, Deus, but if you honestly think that your post didn't come off as more than a tad arrogant, then you might want to read it again.

The homers don't like it being noted that their perspective isn't objective, but my pointing that out is not arrogant. It's just noting perspective. Hell, the fact that ken is apologetic about his post-draft rant should drive the point home with regards to him.

Also, I find it funny that my post was supposed to be 'arrogant' when what I did was defend my post from accusations of a complete lack of merit. And I like your stuff, too, but you should note what you did with your post. Instead of berating Ken, you were dishonest about what I'd posted, and went after what I'd written. You, like signbabybrady, saw what you wanted to see rather than what was, and you also might want to think about why you went that route.

 

[Oswlek]

This is a message board that's set up to talk football and the Patriots. If "BB says/did" is the end all and be all, what the hell are you bothering to post for, since we can just get team press releases and don't need your input? If it's not (and it's not), then your post is irrelevant, because the whole point is discussion. You know.... a thread about football, meaning BB can be questioned, just as his decisions can, and we don't have to pretend the guy's a freakin' deity.

I also am amused that you're trying to infer anything from BB, who's supposed to be one that plays it so close to the vest and almost never denigrates a player. Did you expect him to say "They all sucked or were hurt, and I had to throw someone out there"?

Of course BB makes mistakes. He'd be the first to admit it.

The problem is that you are staking a pretty serious claim, that a guy who NE played roughy 40% of game snaps when healthy and who NE wasted a roster spot for 7 weeks to wait for him to get healthy, is street free agent caliber.

This isn't a swing and miss draft pick that every team has, or a boneheaded gameday decision. You are claiming that BB cannot discern that he is giving a nobody roughly 25 snaps a game and that he is too stupid to realize that the position needs fresh blood.

I'm sure you're going to say that you never said those words, but that is the implication of what you did say. I'm all for a discussion, but I need more than just your opinion stated as fact to change mine.

 

[Oswlek]

The homers don't like it being noted that their perspective isn't objective, but my pointing that out is not arrogant. It's just noting perspective. Hell, the fact that ken is apologetic about his post-draft rant should drive the point home with regards to him.

Also, I find it funny that my post was supposed to be 'arrogant' when what I did was defend my post from accusations of a complete lack of merit. And I like your stuff, too, but you should note what you did with your post. Instead of berating Ken, you were dishonest about what I'd posted, and went after what I'd written. You, like signbabybrady, saw what you wanted to see rather than what was, and you also might want to think about why you went that route.

Fair enough. Have you any rebuttal to the rest of my post?

 

[signbabybrady]

I didn't say that. I didn't say anything close to that. In fact, I was defending my post against a charge from Ken that my post had no merit. In other words, you've got it completely backwards. You saw what you wanted to see, and you might ask yourself why that is.

No that isnt exactly what you said but it is implied.

Ken said your post had no merit and you were defending your post.

if you were defending your post against his claim that yours had no merit than you are infering his had no merit as both posts couldn't be right. You then tried to use the logic that you were being objective and he was being a homer to prove your point.

 

[Deus Irae]

if you were defending your post against his claim that yours had no merit than you are infering his had no merit as both posts couldn't be right. You then tried to use the logic that you were being objective and he was being a homer to prove your point.

Now, having pointed that out, I'll also point out that my comments were certainly no more arbitrary or without merit than what you've posted.

Again, ask yourself why you keep misreading what was actually written. It's obviously not because you're thinking objectively.

 

[signbabybrady]

Actually, your post-draft rant was the first time in a long time that you'd approached things with anything approaching an objective, non-biased angle, and it was some of your best stuff in recent memory. It might not all have been accurate or correct in the long run, but at least it showed an ability to use your mind freely rather than serving as another of the team parrots.

So you would perfer knee jerk reactions that both you and Ken agree were wrong because it gives the impression of objectivity rather than real thought out topics of discussion that might fall in line with believing in this team.

Dues I think you need to stop and think about one thing. How many of the people that you call homers would still be defending this team the way they do now if we were in the midst of several 2-14 4-12 seasons. defending a team and the front office moves of perenial playoff and SB contender is much wiser than spewing out knee jerk reactions that are wrong.

I will agree with you that the ball washing can be overboard sometimes and that there have been plenty of instances where the Pats have been wrong and the fans on here dont recognize it right away because of their homerism but those are select instances and right now a blind homer would be more right more often than someone saying anything just to make themselves seem objective.

Am I being a homer when I say Tom Brady is the best QB in the league?

 

[signbabybrady]

Again, ask yourself why you keep misreading what was actually written. It's obviously not because you're thinking objectively.

I didnt misread anything as I said originally I pretty much stopped reading at the point I thought you were being insulted. I did come back to the thread and read other posts that followed and sure maybe I shouldnt have commented on something I didnt read entirely but that doesnt change the facts that what you wrote came off that way and was not my being un-objective as I dont really have a stake in an argument between you and another poster so where am I not objective?

 

[Oswlek]

I just realized that I called you "Deuce" instead of "Deus". Not sure how that happened, but I assure you it was unintentional and that there were no hidden messages with that alteration.

 

[Oswlek]

How many of the people that you call homers would still be defending this team the way they do now if we were in the midst of several 2-14 4-12 seasons.

Pretty much. I certainly wouldn't be holding Peter Carrol's opinion in as high regard, and his teams were always competitive.

It's just hard not siding with a coach who is widely considered one of the best 10 ever and who has Bill Parcells' vote for #1 overall. :confused2:

 

[Deus Irae]

So you would perfer knee jerk reactions that both you and Ken agree were wrong because it gives the impression of objectivity rather than real thought out topics of discussion that might fall in line with believing in this team.

At this point, you're not even trying to give a fair reading to what I'm posting. Nowhere did I say Ken was wrong in his post-draft rant.

It might not all have been accurate or correct in the long run, but at least it showed an ability to use your mind freely rather than serving as another of the team parrots.

Noting that it might not be accurate in the long run is not the same as saying it was wrong.

Dues I think you need to stop and think about one thing. How many of the people that you call homers would still be defending this team the way they do now if we were in the midst of several 2-14 4-12 seasons. defending a team and the front office moves of perenial playoff and SB contender is much wiser than spewing out knee jerk reactions that are wrong.

History shows us that a percentage of homers remain no matter how bad a team gets, just as a percentage of naysayers will remain no matter how good a team is. And, "defending a team and the front office moves of perenial playoff and SB contender is much wiser than spewing out knee jerk reactions that are wrong." is a misleading statement. BB could make a million consecutive right moves, but that doesn't mean that number one million and one was automatically correct, and reacting against the team is not automatically knee jerk or wrong.

I will agree with you that the ball washing can be overboard sometimes and that there have been plenty of instances where the Pats have been wrong and the fans on here dont recognize it right away because of their homerism but those are select instances and right now a blind homer would be more right more often than someone saying anything just to make themselves seem objective.

The ballwashing on this site has gotten ridiculous, and it's killing football discussions. Here we are without football going on, and I'm being attacked for daring to opine that Deaderick didn't show some awesome potential and Pryor hasn't been anything special as a sub rusher with 0.5 sacks in 2 years, and then being called arrogant for just saying my arguments have as much merit as Kens'.

People here ***** because they don't have football threads here, but why would anyone bother making a football thread if anything other than "BB's always right and ever Patriots player is awesome" is immediately attacked by people who didn't even bother to think about what was posted?

And don't kid yourself, because that's exactly what happened here. Your posts were clear examples of it.

Am I being a homer when I say Tom Brady is the best QB in the league?

It depends on why you're saying it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Pretty much. I certainly wouldn't be holding Peter Carrol's opinion in as high regard, and his teams were always competitive.

It's just hard not siding with a coach who is widely considered one of the best 10 ever and who has Bill Parcells' vote for #1 overall. :confused2:

It's only hard when you shelve your objectivity.

 

[Oswlek]

The ballwashing on this site has gotten ridiculous, and it's killing football discussions. Here we are without football going on, and I'm being attacked for daring to opine that Deaderick didn't show some awesome potential and Pryor hasn't been anything special as a sub rusher with 0.5 sacks in 2 years, and then being called arrogant for just saying my arguments have as much merit as Kens'.

That isn't at all what happened.

You said Pryor is on par with 30 guys who end August waiting by their phones. That is a totally different statement than "Pryor hasn't been anything special".

Your comment about Deaderick here isn't an accurate reflection of what happened as well. I stated definitively that Deaderick was a JAG last year, but JAG level performance from a 7th round rookie was promising.

You then replied

Deaderick isn't very good either.

Well, if I already laid out that he was a JAG, you must have thought he was really bad to feel the need to correct me.

Again, how about we calm the hyperbole. I'm all ears if you have something to justify your opinion.

 

[Oswlek]

It's only hard when you shelve your objectivity.

Dude, you're going off the deep end here. If you have something constructive to say, let's talk.

 

[Deus Irae]

That isn't at all what happened.

You said Pryor is on par with 30 guys who end August waiting by their phones. That is a totally different statement than "Pryor hasn't been anything special".

That's not what I said. What I said was

You'll find Pryor's level of player getting cut from team after team every year.

If you're going to try pulling the "totally different statement" card, you probably shouldn't be posting a totally different statement.

Your comment about Deaderick here isn't an accurate reflection of what happened as well. I stated definitively that Deaderick was a JAG last year, but JAG level performance from a 7th round rookie was promising.

You then replied



Well, if I already laid out that he was a JAG, you must have thought he was really bad to feel the need to correct me.

You said he was a jag, I said he wasn't very good either in the context of the earlier Pryor points.. And here you take what I said, read it as you wish, which is clearly not the same as what was written, and try turning it around on me.

Again, how about we calm the hyperbole. I'm all ears if you have something to justify your opinion.

I'm not the one playing the word games. And I've already justified my opinion. If you don't like my argument, that's fine with me. I don't care for your dishonest posting of what I've written on this thread, so let's just consider the subject closed between us for the duration of this thread.

 

[Deus Irae]

Dude, you're going off the deep end here. If you have something constructive to say, let's talk.

I'm not going off of any deep end.

–adjective
4.
being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
5.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
6.
intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.

It's just hard not siding with a coach who is widely considered one of the best 10 ever and who has Bill Parcells' vote for #1 overall

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

The Patriots NEEDED to draft a stud 3-4 DE and they passed on

Cameron Jordan
Corey Liuget
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Muhammad Wilkerson
and Cam Heyward

The Jets o-line destroyed the likes of Gerard Warren and Brandon Deaderick in the playoff game, and I don't see how things will be different this season. Sure Ty Warren is coming back but he's been declining since his outstanding 2006 season and Marcus Stroud was so bad the BILLS cut him.

 

[Sciz]

The Patriots NEEDED to draft a stud 3-4 DE and they passed on

Cameron Jordan
Corey Liuget
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Muhammad Wilkerson
and Cam Heyward

The Jets o-line destroyed the likes of Gerard Warren and Brandon Deaderick in the playoff game, and I don't see how things will be different this season. Sure Ty Warren is coming back but he's been declining since his outstanding 2006 season and Marcus Stroud was so bad the BILLS cut him.

Try to fill a need with someone who doesn't fit, and you end up with the same need a year later. I personally didn't really like any of the above, and apparently didn't either. And remember, Ty Warren is coming back. And Stroud wasn't cut for being bad; he was cut because he was due $5.5M next season.

 

[patriot lifer]

The Patriots NEEDED to draft a stud 3-4 DE and they passed on

Cameron Jordan
Corey Liuget
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Muhammad Wilkerson
and Cam Heyward

The Jets o-line destroyed the likes of Gerard Warren and Brandon Deaderick in the playoff game, and I don't see how things will be different this season. Sure Ty Warren is coming back but he's been declining since his outstanding 2006 season and Marcus Stroud was so bad the BILLS cut him.

While they did have a rough outing against the Jets let's remember a few things:

1. The Jets offensive line is pretty darn good and the Pats were getting beat in the passing game too, which means that we couldn't focus on the running game.

2. Our defensive line had sustained a rash of defensive line injuries last year and even guys in there were still banged up with the exception of G. Warren and Wilfork. When Cohen and Love are getting significant playing time in a playoff game, you know something's wrong.

3. (For some perspective) Our exit of the '09 playoffs featured our line getting demolished by the Ravens offensive line. We all panicked in the offseason that we needed a body in the Richard Seymour- or Ty Warren-mold to anchor the other side. When we got Gerrard Warren, we were hoping that he could fill those shoes. Then Ty Warren went down. Before the season even began we were worrying so much over the defensive line and what happened to it in the previous outing, but we ended up alright.

We might not have a great D-line, but we mustn't fixate on one game when predicting their future performance. I'm just glad that we have a number of bodies in camp that can legitimately compete for the 7-ish positions. It makes a guy like Ron Brace have to step up.

 

[italia44]

The Patriots NEEDED to draft a stud 3-4 DE and they passed on

Cameron Jordan
Corey Liuget
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Muhammad Wilkerson
and Cam Heyward

The Jets o-line destroyed the likes of Gerard Warren and Brandon Deaderick in the playoff game, and I don't see how things will be different this season. Sure Ty Warren is coming back but he's been declining since his outstanding 2006 season and Marcus Stroud was so bad the BILLS cut him.

Wilkerson and Taylor are NT's
Liuget and Clayborn are 4-3 conversion projects
That leaves the old merry-go-round of the 2 "CAMS" versus Solder and a 2012 Number 1.

I'll stick with Solder,the No.1 and the extra from N.O.

Repeat the Mantra after me..."In Bill AND Dante,We Trust":rocker: