DRAFT Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

[JackBauer]

Sure . . . and Sanchez sucks, Keller is worse than Aaron Hernandez, and Wilson is a disappointment after 1 year. Seems reasonable . . .

Actually, I'd take Gronkowski and Hernandez over Keller, even after seeing them for only one season.

I thought Keller was going to be nasty after his rookie year, but no dice. He's soft, the quintessential "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane."

 

[Deus Irae]

Context. Keller was on a team with balls being distributed to Edwards, Holmes, Cotchery and LT. Watson was on a team where Mohammed Massaquoi was the next best receiving threat. Of course Watson was going to catch more passes.

Look at Keller's numbers the first 4 games of the season (before Holmes came back and started eating into his targets) and you can see his talent level. Purely as a receiver, I'd put him in the top 7 or so TEs in the league. (Witten, Finley, Gonzalez, Gates, Clark are the top 5, in some order, and Keller is right in the mix after them). He's a willing but not particularly great blocker, so overall I'd say somewhere in the top 10.

Context? Watson was playing on a team that had 3 different starting QBs, and in a division with two excellent rivals, while Keller had the same starting QB all year, and only had one quality division rival. You can criticize any talent selector in major U.S. sports, including Belichick, but you're using bad examples. Graham became the best blocking TE in the NFL. Meriweather has been to the Pro Bowl twice. You may not love their games, but they certainly aren't busts.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm really uninterested in breaking down how badly the Jets have drafted over the years because quite frankly the exercise would be boring and obvious. I don't give a damn about the Jets draft. They've busted about as often as any other team but boy are their busts more spectacularly bad. Vernon Gholston anyone? I wouldn't rule out Sanchez as a bust yet either, he looked about a nervous breakdown away from losing it, requiring his coach to step in and fix his head, and Kyle Wilson is heading straight into BUST category at this rate.

So can we get this thread back on track and ignore the Jets troll. Someone obviously has too much time on their hands. Either that or the Jets forum is so mindnumbingly boring, they have to wander over here. Whatever.

--> BACK ON TOPIC

Ninkovich is one guy I think can make some strides this season. He has shown increasing competence at the 3-4 OLB position. You have to remember that Vrabel wasn't an overnight star at OLB either. As for sub rush packages, Moore has showed us a few flashes. Cunningham as well has shown promise, he just needs to work harder on finishing off plays. Once the game 'slows down' for him I think you will see more of those pressures turning into sacks.

The Patriots defense is VERY young. We keep forgetting how young they are. They have room to improve and grow. BB's reason for not drafting too many players on defense may have more to do with how he felt the unit needed to mature and age. Adding too much youth in consecutive drafts would just make the defense too 'green'. I think BB wants to ascertain for sure what he has on the defense first before we see more changes made to it next season. For right now, free agency is our most likely route to add a veteran or two at the rush linebacker position.

 

[Sciz]

Ninkovich is one guy I think can make some strides this season. He has shown increasing competence at the 3-4 OLB position. You have to remember that Vrabel wasn't an overnight star at OLB either. As for sub rush packages, Moore has showed us a few flashes. Cunningham as well has shown promise, he just needs to work harder on finishing off plays. Once the game 'slows down' for him I think you will see more of those pressures turning into sacks.

The Patriots defense is VERY young. We keep forgetting how young they are. They have room to improve and grow. BB's reason for not drafting too many players on defense may have more to do with how he felt the unit needed to mature and age. Adding too much youth in consecutive drafts would just make the defense too 'green'. I think BB wants to ascertain for sure what he has on the defense first before we see more changes made to it next season. For right now, free agency is our most likely route to add a veteran or two at the rush linebacker position.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Ninkovich and Cunningham both entered 2010 having never started an NFL game. With a season under their belts, I expect both to be noticeably better and in the case of Cunningham, light years better.

 

[RayClay]

Since you can't seem to even remember your own posts in order to defend them, there's no use continuing discussions with you. And your personal attacks are boring and senseless, either demonstrating a failure to grasp the English language or a willingness to be untruthful on your part. It's not specious to reply specifically to the heart of your claim.



Since it's talent selectors who chose the players, we're talking about them, not "coaches", even though some of those selectors happen to be coaches as well. However, that would mean the Matt Millens of the world fall into your claim as well as the Bill Polians. Since you can't seem to deal honestly with something that basic, though, we might as well just end this here.

Yeah, you really got me. Before you posted, everyone on the board thought i meant the worst possible GMs were smarter than the best possible pundits, including GMs who just left teams to join the media.

I'm so ashamed, you bested me because I failed to enumerate every possible argument.

I'm going to get a team of lawyers to help me with my posts from now on so I can write 4 or 5 pages of legalese covering every possible contingency.

If the party of the first part (GM) is a functional moron like Millen who shouldn't even have the job and the party of the second part is someone like Parcells who, though not currently employed by a team, has coached and built numerous succesful teams, the party of the second part shall not be deemed to be merely a media pundit for the purposes of arguing with Deus Irae.

For the purposes of further discussion, until it is determined that Matt Millen has a functioning brain, he shall not be deemed to be a professional talent evaluator, though he may have been hired as one.

That should cover that argument. I'll draft 10 or 20 more pages to cover any other exceptions so i'm not caught again.

 

[RayClay]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Ninkovich and Cunningham both entered 2010 having never started an NFL game. With a season under their belts, I expect both to be noticeably better and in the case of Cunningham, light years better.

The ability to coach up our second and third year players should add more immediate improvement than any possible draft.

And we've got ammo next year. I'm hearing this was a pretty weak draft. It sure doesn't seem as strong as the big DL draft we got Warren in and there were some awesome busts there too. also some finds, but not our system types other than Ty, I believe.

 

[Doggin94it]

I'm really uninterested in breaking down how badly the Jets have drafted over the years because quite frankly the exercise would be boring and obvious. I don't give a damn about the Jets draft. They've busted about as often as any other team but boy are their busts more spectacularly bad. Vernon Gholston anyone? I wouldn't rule out Sanchez as a bust yet either, he looked about a nervous breakdown away from losing it, requiring his coach to step in and fix his head, and Kyle Wilson is heading straight into BUST category at this rate.

That's funny - because over Tanny's tenure, the Jets have consistently been one of the better drafting teams in the NFL (though the lack of quantity is concerning)

 

[Ring 6]

That's funny - because over Tanny's tenure, the Jets have consistently been one of the better drafting teams in the NFL (though the lack of quantity is concerning)

The draft is about quantity and quality. That the Jets have consistently been one of the better drafting teams is your opinion, which many do not share. Gholston and Sanchez alone make his record tremendously questionable.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure . . . and Sanchez sucks, Keller is worse than Aaron Hernandez, and Wilson is a disappointment after 1 year. Seems reasonable . . .

What in there is disputable?
Perhaps Sanchez sucks could be debated as Sanchez has sucked so far.
Aaron Hernandez is a better receiver than Keller and miles better after the catch.
You think Wilson is not a disappointment so far? Really?

 

[Doggin94it]

What in there is disputable?
Perhaps Sanchez sucks could be debated as Sanchez has sucked so far.
Aaron Hernandez is a better receiver than Keller and miles better after the catch.
You think Wilson is not a disappointment so far? Really?

Sanchez, at the moment, is a good QB trending towards very good, and has shown himself able to handle the pressure of both NY and the playoffs. That's all you could ask for out of a QB after 2 years in the league, especially given his history in college).

Hell, look at Brees' stats his second year as a starter - below 60% completions, 11/15 TD/INT, QB rating 67.5, 6.2 ypa, 2,108 yards.

Sanchez' year 2 numbers compare favorably in every category except completion percentage - more yards, ypa, better TD/INT, better QB rating.

Obviously I'm not suggesting Sanchez will be Brees; it's insane to project any 2nd year QB to develop that well. But Sanchez has shown a hell of a lot of good in his 2 years, especially in the "you either have it or you don't" categories (leadership, ability to handle pressure).

Wilson had about the season you'd expect from a rookie CB, especially one tossed into the fire - burned a few times, made some nice plays. The underlying skills are still there, and it's waaay too early to make any judgment at all on how he'll pan out. (That's true for most of last year's picks, on any team).

I've watched both Keller and Hernandez. Hernandez is a nice player, but he's nowhere near Keller after the catch.

 

[The Scrizz]

I've watched both Keller and Hernandez. Hernandez is a nice player, but he's nowhere near Keller after the catch.

YAC -

Keller
2008 - 3.7
2009 - 4.0
2010 - 4.4

total - 4.0

Hernandez, as the youngest player in the league:

2010 - 6.7

Don't believe your lying eyes, it's not even close.

You may win the award for the most demonstrably wrong post ever. I mean, you don't have Google? They averaged the exact same amount per catch and Hernandez was fully 65% better after the catch.

 

[The Scrizz]

And I gave you the benefit of the doubt and only gave the percentage for 2010!

I'm almost too embarrassed for you to compare their rookie years.

 

[Sciz]

I don't know about statistically, but using the eyeball test, Hernandez is easily the best TE in the NFL when it comes to YAC.

 

[The Scrizz]

I don't know about statistically, but using the eyeball test, Hernandez is easily the best TE in the NFL when it comes to YAC.

Well then Doggin is blind and they don't post stats in Braille.

 

[condon84]

I've watched both Keller and Hernandez. Hernandez is a nice player, but he's nowhere near Keller after the catch.

If you really watched both players, then I don't see how you can honestly make that comment. Hernandez was great at getting yards after the catch (YAC). Not saying Keller is not good either, but to say Hernandez is nowhere near Keller is similar to saying something crazy like "just because you're singing a duet with Lance Bass, doesn't mean you're gay".

Keller had 55 receptions last year and his YAC total was 234 yards. He averaged 4.25 YAC. 2010 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

Hernandez had 45 receptions and his YAC total was 297 yards. He averaged 6.6 YAC. 2010 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

More evidence...

 

[Ring 6]

Sanchez, at the moment, is a good QB trending towards very good,

Good? Good? Really?
Lets try this. Good means above average. If there are 32 teams in the NFL the line of 'good' would be around 12 I'd say. Please show me the 20 starting QBs that Sanchez is better than.
Let me give you a few hints on this.
Sanchez was 16th in yards.
29th in completion % (out of 31 qualifiers)--by the way please explain to be how you can call a QB who completes 54.8% of his passes GOOD
27th in passer rating, and by the way no one that finished below him is an NFL starter any more.
And had an uninspiring 17/13 TD/Int ratio, also near the worst.

Describing him as good would mean that to be good you simply have to have someone decide to put you in the game.

What in the world does trending to very good mean?

and has shown himself able to handle the pressure of both NY and the playoffs. That's all you could ask for out of a QB after 2 years in the league, especially given his history in college).

His team has shown they can win in the playoffs often despite their QB.
So, now he is good only because the expectations are low? Good is compared to everyone, not because you can find an excuse that makes sucking acceptable to you.

Hell, look at Brees' stats his second year as a starter - below 60% completions, 11/15 TD/INT, QB rating 67.5, 6.2 ypa, 2,108 yards.

Sanchez' year 2 numbers compare favorably in every category except completion percentage - more yards, ypa, better TD/INT, better QB rating.

And Brees sucked then. You are trying to say that since one QB who sucked became good that sucking is proof you will be good. That is ludicours.

Obviously I'm not suggesting Sanchez will be Brees; it's insane to project any 2nd year QB to develop that well. But Sanchez has shown a hell of a lot of good in his 2 years, especially in the "you either have it or you don't" categories (leadership, ability to handle pressure).

Actually you did just compare him to Brees.
Sanchez has shown a lot more bad than good, evidence by his ranking in the bottom 5 in many categories. His leadrship, and handling of pressure are also in question. The team having some success does not mean he led or handled pressure

.

Wilson had about the season you'd expect from a rookie CB, especially one tossed into the fire - burned a few times, made some nice plays. The underlying skills are still there, and it's waaay too early to make any judgment at all on how he'll pan out. (That's true for most of last year's picks, on any team).

While McCourty started from day 1, and I don't have to make those excuses?
Wilson was not even getting reps in the nickel by mid season.
You are really trying to tell me you expected him to get burned so bad he couldnt get on the field after drafting him in the 1st round. Why would I not be surprised to hear you were one of the posters that came here and told us how great he was going to be last year and how he was better than McCourty and now you say you expected him to do nothing?

I've watched both Keller and Hernandez. Hernandez is a nice player, but he's nowhere near Keller after the catch.

Then you have not watched Hernandez because it isnt even close. You might as well say Sanchez is more accurate than Brady, which would fit well in this post.

 

[The Scrizz]

Good? Good? Really?

You forgot that Sanchez isn't necessarily gay despite the duet that Condon provided. That should count for something. Maybe that high school beard, I mean girl, was just dating him to get to Lance.

 

[Urgent]

Now that Bodden is healthy, and the Pats drafted a corner high, that should free up Arrington to do what he does best.

Forget Ninkovich and TBC. Arrington should be the full-time rush linebacker. What did he have last year, five or six sacks? And the pressure?

Don't underestimate Arrington at LB!
Will he have to change his number?

 

[sbpatfan]

Dustin Keller is overrated, he disappears for large stretches of games (still). No one with half a brain would compare Keller to Hernandez anyways. They're not even the same type of player.

 

[ivanvamp]

He's ok - but I'd consider him a disappointment given his draft position and expectations. Maybe I'm a harsher grader than you, which is why I label Maroney, Watson, and Graham "busts" - they contributed (a little), but nowhere near expectations and your team had no interest in retaining them past their rookie contracts.

A "bust" is as low a grade as you can really give a drafted player. Vernon Gholston is the definition of "bust". As is Jamarcus Russell. Neither of those guys, especially given their place in the draft, amounted to *anything* worthwhile.

I've already given you the actual numbers on those guys (the Pats' players). Ben Watson was the 32nd pick of the draft and gave the Pats, during his 5 full seasons with them, 417 receiving yards and 5 td a year. Here are, since 2002, the #32 picks in the draft:

2002 - QB Patrick Ramsey, Was
2003 - DE Tyler Brayton, Oak
2004 - TE Ben Watson, NE
2005 - OL Logan Mankins, NE
2006 - DE Mathias Kiwanuka, NYG
2007 - WR Anthony Gonzalez, Ind
2008 - DE Philip Merling, Mia
2009 - DT Evander Hood, Pit
2010 - CB Patrick Robinson, NO

Of this group, only Mankins has been an all-pro (or even been to the pro bowl). Watson and Kiwanuka would be the 2nd and 3rd best #32 draft picks since 2002, in some order (I could see the argument for Kiwanuka, though I can also see the argument for Watson).

Laurence Maroney averaged 779 yds and 7 td a year for the Patriots. He was the #21 pick in the draft. Here are other #21 picks:

2002 - TE Daniel Graham, NE
2003 - C Jeff Faine, Cle
2004 - DT Vince Wilfork, NE
2005 - WR Matt Jones, Jax
2006 - RB Laurence Maroney, NE
2007 - DB Reggie Nelson, Jax
2008 - OT Sam Baker, Atl
2009 - C Alex Mack, Cle
2010 - Jermaine Gresham, Cin

Maroney stacks up quite nicely with this group. Wilfork, obviously, is the best of the group, but Maroney's production is better than anyone else's on this list.

And Graham, again, was the best blocking TE in football for a while, and was a starter on two Patriots' SB-winning teams. You're not a "bust" if you're a key contributor on two championship teams. You're just not.

So, yeah, when you said, "Maybe I'm a harsher grader than you", obviously you are......at least when it comes to Patriots' players. Because you seem to think quite highly of Jets' players that have similar production to Pats' players (i.e., Keller).

Bottom line: clearly I can't change your mind, which is okay because you're also out of it.