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Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB


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I'm not playing games. You're making an attack on people, and I'm responding to it. I look forward to your defense of Matt Millen, perhaps without the stupid personal shots at me.

Are you fool enough to think that Belichick nails the first round, 100%, year after year?

Does Belichick never make a bad pick? After all, no one knows his team, or its needs better than he does, so he should hit at just about 100%, right? After all, he's the expert.


Nobody's perfect when it comes to the draft.

Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. Belichick doesn't miss too often, though, on his first rounders:

2001 - Richard Seymour (all-pro stud for years)
2002 - Daniel Graham (solid TE for two SB-winning teams)
2003 - Ty Warren (outstanding starting DE); Vince Wilfork (all-pro stud)
2004 - Ben Watson (disappointing)
2005 - Logan Mankins (all-pro stud)
2006 - Laurence Maroney (disappointing, but he was better than many here give him credit for)
2007 - Brandon Meriweather (2-time pro bowler)
2008 - Jerod Mayo (DRoY, all-pro)
2009 - no pick
2010 - Devin McCourty (pro-bowler)

So out of his 10 first-round picks as HC of the NEP, four of them have become all-pros (Seymour, Wilfork, Mankins, Mayo), two others have been pro-bowlers (McCourty, Meriweather), one more has been a very solid starter his whole career (Warren), one was a solid blocking TE on two SB-winning teams (Graham), and two have been disappointing, but who were still starters for the Pats.

I dunno...how many teams have produced four all-pros, six total pro-bowlers, and 10 starters out of their last 10 first-round picks?

Put it this way: If you could be guaranteed those results with their next 10 first-round picks, would you take it? I sure would.
 
Agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. Belichick doesn't miss too often, though, on his first rounders:

2001 - Richard Seymour (all-pro stud for years)
2002 - Daniel Graham (solid TE for two SB-winning teams)
2003 - Ty Warren (outstanding starting DE); Vince Wilfork (all-pro stud)
2004 - Ben Watson (disappointing)
2005 - Logan Mankins (all-pro stud)
2006 - Laurence Maroney (disappointing, but he was better than many here give him credit for)
2007 - Brandon Meriweather (2-time pro bowler)
2008 - Jerod Mayo (DRoY, all-pro)
2009 - no pick
2010 - Devin McCourty (pro-bowler)

So out of his 10 first-round picks as HC of the NEP, four of them have become all-pros (Seymour, Wilfork, Mankins, Mayo), two others have been pro-bowlers (McCourty, Meriweather), one more has been a very solid starter his whole career (Warren), one was a solid blocking TE on two SB-winning teams (Graham), and two have been disappointing, but who were still starters for the Pats.

I dunno...how many teams have produced four all-pros, six total pro-bowlers, and 10 starters out of their last 10 first-round picks?

Put it this way: If you could be guaranteed those results with their next 10 first-round picks, would you take it? I sure would.

Seriously? Graham, Watson and Maroney were outright busts, and Meriweather, IMO, will never live up to his draft position (he should not have been a pro bowler and won't repeat it). So of 9 first round picks, he's hit on 5, plus one middling. That's a decent track record, no more, no less.

(By way of comparison only, here are Mike Tannenbaum's first round picks:

Ferguson (hit), Mangold (hit), Revis (hit), Gholston (miss), Keller (hit), Sanchez (hit), Wilson (Jury's out) - that's 5/6, 5/7 at worst.

Ozzie Newsome's last 10 years:

Heap (hit), Reed (hit), Suggs (hit), Boller (miss), Clayton (miss), Ngata (hit), Grubbs (hit), Flacco (hit), Oher (hit) - 7/9 good picks.

Those are good first round records (though Tannenbaum is way too small of a sample size to really make a judgment on him, yet)
 
I'm not playing games. You're making an attack on people, and I'm responding to it. I look forward to your defense of Matt Millen, perhaps without the stupid personal shots at me.

Are you fool enough to think that Belichick nails the first round, 100%, year after year?

Does Belichick never make a bad pick? After all, no one knows his team, or its needs better than he does, so he should hit at just about 100%, right? After all, he's the expert.


Nobody's perfect when it comes to the draft.

Oh pray tell, why do I have to defend matt Millen?

If we find someone almost brain damaged running a draft board, that makes all pundit draft reports gold?

Specious, even for you.
 
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This is the silliest argument I've ever seen. Gil Brandt was a personnel guy for years.

I guess by this logic he knows more now as an almost 80 year old writer than he did in his heyday in the 60's and 70's.

After all writers know more than Front office people about their teams.
 
Seriously? Graham, Watson and Maroney were outright busts, and Meriweather, IMO, will never live up to his draft position (he should not have been a pro bowler and won't repeat it). So of 9 first round picks, he's hit on 5, plus one middling. That's a decent track record, no more, no less.

Meriweather has been a *two-time* pro-bowler. Look, I know that's not a perfect way to judge talent...there are flaws with pro-bowl selections. But he's already been selected twice...not just once. Clearly, the guy can play.

I've already said that Maroney and Watson were disappointments. I wouldn't call them "busts" though. A "bust" is someone that is drafted with high expectations and contributes nothing. Vernon Gholston comes to mind. Maroney, though not as productive as we'd have liked, was still a starter. He was hurt one year, but in the other three years with the Pats he rushed for 2337 yds (4.2 avg) and 21 td. That's an average of 779 yds and 7 td a year. That's not a "bust", not for the 21st overall pick. It's not as much as we wanted, which is why I labeled him a disappointment, but he wasn't a "bust".

Watson, meanwhile, was similar. In his 5 full seasons with the Pats (he only played 1 game in 2004), he had 2086 receiving yds and 20 td. That comes to 417 yds and 5 td a year. Again, not as productive as we had hoped, but not many TE in the NFL averaged 5 td a year from 2005-2009. It might surprise you, but it's the same # of TD that Jason Witten had over the same time span.

Again, he wasn't as productive as we hoped he would be, no doubt. Hence the label "disappointment". But a "bust"? No, a bust is a guy that really gives you nothing. Ben Watson certainly didn't give the Patriots "nothing". He was a starter.

Dustin Keller, meanwhile, a guy you labeled a "hit", has put up, in 3 years, these numbers: 1744 yds and 10 td. That averages out to 581 yds and 3.3 td a year.

So the Jets' "hit" at TE has averaged 581 yds and 3.3 td a year.
The Pats' "bust" at TE averaged 417 yds and 5 td a year.

Ok.......

Again, I just listed facts regarding BB's 10 first round picks with the Pats:

- 4 all-pros
- 6 pro-bowlers
- 10 starters total
- 2 non-pro-bowl, but solid starters
- 2 non-pro-bowl, but disappointing, starters

Zero "busts". Not all home runs....but a lot of them were.

(By way of comparison only, here are Mike Tannenbaum's first round picks:

Ferguson (hit), Mangold (hit), Revis (hit), Gholston (miss), Keller (hit), Sanchez (hit), Wilson (Jury's out) - that's 5/6, 5/7 at worst.

Ozzie Newsome's last 10 years:

Heap (hit), Reed (hit), Suggs (hit), Boller (miss), Clayton (miss), Ngata (hit), Grubbs (hit), Flacco (hit), Oher (hit) - 7/9 good picks.

Those are good first round records (though Tannenbaum is way too small of a sample size to really make a judgment on him, yet)
 
Meriweather has been a *two-time* pro-bowler.

And I think they're going to kick his pro bowl ass to the curb. Hopefully the recognition increases his trade value.
 
And I think they're going to kick his pro bowl ass to the curb. Hopefully the recognition increases his trade value.

Heh. Well, they might. But we see Meriweather every game. We don't watch every other guy that makes the pro bowl every game. You can't *suck* and be a two-time pro-bowler. He isn't the greatest safety ever, obviously, but he doesn't stink. He's really good. Drives us crazy from time to time, but he's a really good football player.

That said, I wouldn't mind an upgrade either. :)
 
Heh. Well, they might. But we see Meriweather every game. We don't watch every other guy that makes the pro bowl every game. You can't *suck* and be a two-time pro-bowler. He isn't the greatest safety ever, obviously, but he doesn't stink. He's really good. Drives us crazy from time to time, but he's a really good football player.

That said, I wouldn't mind an upgrade either. :)

He's very athletic. I would contend with, you can't suck and make two pro bowls, but I'll leave it, the guy has a world of ability.

However, his heads not screwed on straight, he was benched for it, character questionable and he's running into his own team mates.

classic example of draft measurables good, actual team attitude not so good (IMO).

I read all sorts of draft scouting reports, and Gil Brandt is a legend, but these things aren't the bible, they're snapshots compiled by various inters, some of whom actually have worked with teams.

Teams don't take their draft boards and fill them out like a bingo card to see if they won, they try to make a cohesive team which is a lot harder and personalitioes and character matter.

IMO, Ras-I says goodbye Brandon M.
 
Seriously? Graham, Watson and Maroney were outright busts, and Meriweather, IMO, will never live up to his draft position (he should not have been a pro bowler and won't repeat it). So of 9 first round picks, he's hit on 5, plus one middling. That's a decent track record, no more, no less.

(By way of comparison only, here are Mike Tannenbaum's first round picks:

Ferguson (hit), Mangold (hit), Revis (hit), Gholston (miss), Keller (hit), Sanchez (hit), Wilson (Jury's out) - that's 5/6, 5/7 at worst.

Ozzie Newsome's last 10 years:

Heap (hit), Reed (hit), Suggs (hit), Boller (miss), Clayton (miss), Ngata (hit), Grubbs (hit), Flacco (hit), Oher (hit) - 7/9 good picks.

Those are good first round records (though Tannenbaum is way too small of a sample size to really make a judgment on him, yet)

Are you serious? comparing Tannebaum picking in the top 10 3 times? (one of whom is already a disaster and Sanchez has a good shot at it too). Keller (good, but not even as good as our 4th rd TE from last year). Sanchez is a hit huh? He sucks! right now I'll give him 4/7 if we're grading as harshly on Keller, Sanchez, and Wilson as we are on Merriweather, Graham, and Watson all of whom were solid starters for years. A bust is Gholston who doesn't play. A bust is Boller. Maroney is the only guy you mention who could possibly qualify as a bust.
 
Seriously? Graham, Watson and Maroney were outright busts, and Meriweather, IMO, will never live up to his draft position (he should not have been a pro bowler and won't repeat it). So of 9 first round picks, he's hit on 5, plus one middling. That's a decent track record, no more, no less.

(By way of comparison only, here are Mike Tannenbaum's first round picks:

Ferguson (hit), Mangold (hit), Revis (hit), Gholston (miss), Keller (hit), Sanchez (hit), Wilson (Jury's out) - that's 5/6, 5/7 at worst.

Ozzie Newsome's last 10 years:

Heap (hit), Reed (hit), Suggs (hit), Boller (miss), Clayton (miss), Ngata (hit), Grubbs (hit), Flacco (hit), Oher (hit) - 7/9 good picks.

Those are good first round records (though Tannenbaum is way too small of a sample size to really make a judgment on him, yet)


where is the average draft position of Jets vs Pats since 2006 for these players selected ????? Geee that must be the fineprint

Ferguson @ #4
Mangold @ #29
Revis @ #14
Vernon Bustston @ #6
Sanchez @ #5
Wilson #29

A blind squirrel could pick here and have a hit. You are clueless.
 
Oh pray tell, why do I have to defend matt Millen?

If we find someone almost brain damaged running a draft board, that makes all pundit draft reports gold?

Specious, even for you.

Since you can't seem to even remember your own posts in order to defend them, there's no use continuing discussions with you. And your personal attacks are boring and senseless, either demonstrating a failure to grasp the English language or a willingness to be untruthful on your part. It's not specious to reply specifically to the heart of your claim.

So you think writers know more than coaches which players fit their schemes and yearly personnel strategy?

It's actually pretty funny to go back and read some of those things a couple years later, you should try it.

Since it's talent selectors who chose the players, we're talking about them, not "coaches", even though some of those selectors happen to be coaches as well. However, that would mean the Matt Millens of the world fall into your claim as well as the Bill Polians. Since you can't seem to deal honestly with something that basic, though, we might as well just end this here.
 
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Are you serious? comparing Tannebaum picking in the top 10 3 times? (one of whom is already a disaster and Sanchez has a good shot at it too). Keller (good, but not even as good as our 4th rd TE from last year). Sanchez is a hit huh? He sucks! right now I'll give him 4/7 if we're grading as harshly on Keller, Sanchez, and Wilson as we are on Merriweather, Graham, and Watson all of whom were solid starters for years. A bust is Gholston who doesn't play. A bust is Boller. Maroney is the only guy you mention who could possibly qualify as a bust.

And the homerism comes out to play. Nice.
 
where is the average draft position of Jets vs Pats since 2006 for these players selected ????? Geee that must be the fineprint

Ferguson @ #4
Mangold @ #29
Revis @ #14
Vernon Bustston @ #6
Sanchez @ #5
Wilson #29
Keller # 30

A blind squirrel could pick here and have a hit. You are clueless.

Really? Sanchez was a trade up from 17; the Jets average draft position has been significantly lower than you think. Beyond that, the bust rate at the top of the draft is pretty tremendous (which, as a Jets fan, I know all too well). Bottom line is he's had 7 first round picks, and he's taken: 3 pro-bowlers (including 2 players who are the best in the NFL at their positions), one bust, 1 TE who is an upper echelon receiving TE, and a QB who has taken the team to the league championship game in his first two seasons (and who plays his best in the playoffs). Jury's still out on Wilson, but that is a great track record, and anyone who says different is insane.
Also, if we're wiping "high first round picks" off of the draft records, I guess Belichick gets no credit for Seymour or Mayo?
 
Really? Sanchez was a trade up from 17; the Jets average draft position has been significantly lower than you think. Beyond that, the bust rate at the top of the draft is pretty tremendous (which, as a Jets fan, I know all too well). Bottom line is he's had 7 first round picks, and he's taken: 3 pro-bowlers (including 2 players who are the best in the NFL at their positions), one bust, 1 TE who is an upper echelon receiving TE, and a QB who has taken the team to the league championship game in his first two seasons (and who plays his best in the playoffs). Jury's still out on Wilson, but that is a great track record, and anyone who says different is insane.
Also, if we're wiping "high first round picks" off of the draft records, I guess Belichick gets no credit for Seymour or Mayo?

Ben Watson = bust
Dustin Keller = "upper echelon receiving TE"

Can I have some of what you're smoking, por favor?
 
Really? Sanchez was a trade up from 17; the Jets average draft position has been significantly lower than you think. Beyond that, the bust rate at the top of the draft is pretty tremendous (which, as a Jets fan, I know all too well). Bottom line is he's had 7 first round picks, and he's taken: 3 pro-bowlers (including 2 players who are the best in the NFL at their positions), one bust, 1 TE who is an upper echelon receiving TE, and a QB who has taken the team to the league championship game in his first two seasons (and who plays his best in the playoffs). Jury's still out on Wilson, but that is a great track record, and anyone who says different is insane.
Also, if we're wiping "high first round picks" off of the draft records, I guess Belichick gets no credit for Seymour or Mayo?

Ben Watson was #5 in the NFL in receptions for a tight end last year. Keller was #10. How can Watson be a bust, and Keller be an upper echelon receiving TE, with that being the case?
 
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Meriweather has been a *two-time* pro-bowler. Look, I know that's not a perfect way to judge talent...there are flaws with pro-bowl selections. But he's already been selected twice...not just once. Clearly, the guy can play.

He's ok - but I'd consider him a disappointment given his draft position and expectations. Maybe I'm a harsher grader than you, which is why I label Maroney, Watson, and Graham "busts" - they contributed (a little), but nowhere near expectations and your team had no interest in retaining them past their rookie contracts. That's not a win on a first round pick. (Losing a player you can't resign is one thing. Washing your hands of them because you have no interest is another).

Watson, meanwhile, was similar. In his 5 full seasons with the Pats (he only played 1 game in 2004), he had 2086 receiving yds and 20 td. That comes to 417 yds and 5 td a year. Again, not as productive as we had hoped, but not many TE in the NFL averaged 5 td a year from 2005-2009. It might surprise you, but it's the same # of TD that Jason Witten had over the same time span.

Doesn't surprise me at all, given the context (compare his QB and offense to Witten's from 2004-2009 and think about how much more likely any given Patriot was to catch a TD pass than any given Cowboy in that span. Pats caught 167 TDs from QBs over that span; Cowboys caught 136 - that's an average of 6 more TDs per season to go around). Same for the comparison between Watson (a TE playing in a pass-dominant offense with an all-time great QB) and Keller (who plays on a run first team with a developing Mark Sanchez at QB)

Again, I just listed facts regarding BB's 10 first round picks with the Pats:

- 4 all-pros
- 6 pro-bowlers
- 10 starters total
- 2 non-pro-bowl, but solid starters
- 2 non-pro-bowl, but disappointing, starters

Zero "busts". Not all home runs....but a lot of them were.

As I said, a decent record in the first round - and, generally, a whole lot of nothing after (at least until the last two drafts, where Beli's picks were much better).
 
Ben Watson looked like he was fighting the ball every time he'd try to catch it. The most unnatural of WRs...maybe that was because of the routes he ran. Forgot what he was called here...cement hands or something. It's like trying to catch the ball wearing flower pots on your hands, lol.

Anyway, Banta-cain isn't good, but ninkovich, some called him STINK-o-vich, but I disagreed and I think at times he CAN put pressure on the passer.

The biggest thing is that for whatever reason, BB just doesn't see a lot of guys being able to come straight out of school and do well here as a 3-4 lb. He's drafted so many busts that there's no pipeline of guys with experience ready to take over.
 
Ben Watson was #5 in the NFL in receptions for a tight end last year. Keller was #10. How can Watson be a bust, and Keller be an upper echelon receiving TE, with that being the case?

Context. Keller was on a team with balls being distributed to Edwards, Holmes, Cotchery and LT. Watson was on a team where Mohammed Massaquoi was the next best receiving threat. Of course Watson was going to catch more passes.

Look at Keller's numbers the first 4 games of the season (before Holmes came back and started eating into his targets) and you can see his talent level. Purely as a receiver, I'd put him in the top 7 or so TEs in the league. (Witten, Finley, Gonzalez, Gates, Clark are the top 5, in some order, and Keller is right in the mix after them). He's a willing but not particularly great blocker, so overall I'd say somewhere in the top 10.
 
It's not homerism to point out that your definition of a bust is at variance with reality.

Sure . . . and Sanchez sucks, Keller is worse than Aaron Hernandez, and Wilson is a disappointment after 1 year. Seems reasonable . . .
 
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