2011 Offseason Outlook - Offensive Line

[JackBauer]

I guess we'd like to have Ted Larsen back right about now?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Well those two played but the other six interior linemen (Urbik, Luigs, Ohrnberger, Greene, Duke Robinson and Herman Johnson) picked in rounds 3-5in 2009 did nothing as rookies.

I'll be pleased as punch if the Pats draft a guy in the third round or later who takes Connolly's job but I don't see it happening. Connolly's a lot better than you think and rookies are a lot crappier than you think.

No, he's not. People here overrated him early. You're one who's still doing that. He's a backup, and nothing more. The Patriots had him as a second level backup, behind a player making the conversion from tackle to guard.

I would love for him to improve enough to be a legitimate starter. That's not happened in his first 5 NFL seasons, however.

 

[Shelterdog]

I guess we'd like to have Ted Larsen back right about now?

I'm not sure about that.

Scar and BB know what they're doing. They saw Larsen practice, they saw how he learned the plays, they watched his film dilligently, and they decided the other guys were better for the Patriots. It's not like they cut Larsen without realizing that he has eventually going to blossom into some great player; the exact same guy they cut was starting for a terrible Tampa line a couple weeks later.

And to use some numbers, pro football focus (which is admittedly crude but it's one of the only reasonably objective sources we have on line play) shows that there were 82 guards who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps. Mankins is number four (he would be number on but he missed so much time).
Connolly is thirty four.
Larsen is sixty four and he has a negative number-he was helped by playing a limited number of snaps.

 

[JackBauer]

I'm not sure about that.

Scar and BB know what they're doing. They saw Larsen practice, they saw how he learned the plays, they watched his film dilligently, and they decided the other guys were better for the Patriots. It's not like they cut Larsen without realizing that he has eventually going to blossom into some great player; the exact same guy they cut was starting for a terrible Tampa line a couple weeks later.

And to use some numbers, pro football focus (which is admittedly crude but it's one of the only reasonably objective sources we have on line play) shows that there were 82 guards who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps. Mankins is number four (he would be number on but he missed so much time).
Connolly is thirty four.
Larsen is sixty four and he has a negative number-he was helped by playing a limited number of snaps.

I thought they cut him in an attempt to get him on the practice squad, only to have Tampa purloin him off waivers? Perhaps my memory is faulty.

He did look like doggy doo in preseason, but I still think he'd be a useful body to have around. It was my understanding they are pretty high on him in Tampa.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not sure about that.

Scar and BB know what they're doing. They saw Larsen practice, they saw how he learned the plays, they watched his film dilligently, and they decided the other guys were better for the Patriots. It's not like they cut Larsen without realizing that he has eventually going to blossom into some great player; the exact same guy they cut was starting for a terrible Tampa line a couple weeks later.

And to use some numbers, pro football focus (which is admittedly crude but it's one of the only reasonably objective sources we have on line play) shows that there were 82 guards who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps. Mankins is number four (he would be number on but he missed so much time).
Connolly is thirty four.
Larsen is sixty four and he has a negative number-he was helped by playing a limited number of snaps.

PFF is a joke.

 

[JackBauer]

PFF is a joke.

Lies. Quintin Mikell was the #1 safety in the league this season and Kyle Williams was DPoY.

 

[Shelterdog]

PFF is a joke.

Well do you have some other third party source of information that you could share that would enlighten us? I'm all ears. But right now you've provided no data of any kind whatsoever; you're just repeating your opinion over and over again.

 

[bucky]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Connolly has played in the NFL for 5 seasons. He's never been named the starter on a team with all its linemen healthy and available. The only starts he has in his career are injury/holdout replacement gigs with the Patriots in 2009 and 2010.

He was the team's 3rd option last year at left guard, and the team's #4 guard overall. That's not a true starter. That's a backup pressed into a starting role.

There's a difference.

By that logic, Joe Andruzzi wasn't a starter either. When he came here in 2000, he was in the league for 3 years and this OL was pretty bad heading into 2000. So after 2000, your argument would have applied to Andruzzi as well... but he went on to start here for 4 more years and win 3 Superbowls.

Connolly was stuck behind 2 better players for his first 2 years here. This year he got his chance and was good enough. Look at Ted Larsen - he got cut from here and became a starter in TB. Is he better than Connolly? Is he a "starter"?

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

This is a truly ridiculous statement. Yes, Connolly was the worst OL on the team this year. Still, he started almost every game on the best offense in the NFL.

I am talking about the playoffs, where Connolly stunk up the joint.

Where was Connolly in the playoffs a year ago when Brady was getting spanked by the Ravens? He was on the bench, so you can't blame that one on him. In fact, the OL performed much better in this playoff game than in the last one.

Now you are starting to notice a pattern that the New England Patriots offensive line is not good enough to win one playoff game in two consecutive years. In those two playoff games, the New England Patriots offensive line has allowed eight quarterback sacks. In the meantime, in those two playoff games the New England Patriots defense has not sacked the opposing quarterback once.

You cannot overreact to 1 game. The Pats lost because they got outplayed. The Jets played a great game. That Pats did not make any plays defensively and made critical mistakes (dropped passes, botched fake punt, fumbles, penalties, protection breakdowns). You are overlooking the obvious problem - our team is overly reliant on Brady to be great in order to beat good teams. We need to concentrate on building a more balanced team with more playmakers on both sides of the ball, instead of thinking we can build an impenetrable OL.

If you can't see the New England Patriots aging offensive line needs to be upgraded, then you are blind as a bat. Football games are won in the trenches, the New England Patriots have plenty of offensive playmakers.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

By that logic, Joe Andruzzi wasn't a starter either. When he came here in 2000, he was in the league for 3 years and this OL was pretty bad heading into 2000. So after 2000, your argument would have applied to Andruzzi as well... but he went on to start here for 4 more years and win 3 Superbowls.

Connolly was stuck behind 2 better players for his first 2 years here. This year he got his chance and was good enough. Look at Ted Larsen - he got cut from here and became a starter in TB. Is he better than Connolly? Is he a "starter"?

Joe Andruzzi was able to win the starting job coming out of camp, against present and healthy competition. Connolly did not do that.

At this point, your arguments aren't even making any sense.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Connolly was good enough to earn the job and hold onto it. Pro football focus has him ranked as essentially average. He got blown up a few times but he didn't get penalized. He's a meh player; he's not going to win you any games and if you have a bunch of Connollys playing then you're not going to win a ton of games, but every team has weak spots and the Pats were good enough with him playing to go 14-2 and beat every team that made the conference championships.

I'm talking playoffs where Connolly was terrible. Dan Connolly was an undrafted free agent from the 2005 NFL Draft class. So after six NFL seasons, his performance against the Jets is the best he can do? Sean Ellis owned him in the first half. The New York Jets exploited the major weakness in the New England Patriots offensive line. That weakness needs to be corrected immediately via the 2011 NFL Draft.

I also don't think that your fourth or fifth round rookie is likely to be a better guard than Connolley for the 2011 Patriots.

Funny how three of the five starting offensive lineman for the New Orleans Saints are fourth rounders, including both offensive guards.

No one is saying he's great but he's had seven years on NFL teams, seven years of strength training, four years in the Patriots' system, 19 pro starts. You might get lucky and get a fourth rounders who's better than him right off the bat but that would take a whole lot of luck.

I've seen enough, time to move on without Dan Connolly.

If you want a good chance of improving on Connolly in the draft in 2011 you probably have to use a first or a second.

So be it! The New England Patriots have two first round and two second round draft picks.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

I'm talking playoffs where Connolly was terrible. Dan Connolly was an undrafted free agent from the 2005 NFL Draft class. So after six NFL seasons, his performance against the Jets is the best he can do? Sean Ellis owned him in the first half.

A couple of things to keep in mind: Connolly was playing all season while Mankins wasn't, and then he got to come in, fresh as a dairy, in the middle.

That said, I would like an upgrade over Connolly AND to sign Ellis is possible

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Funny how three of the five starting offensive lineman for the New Orleans Saints are fourth rounders, including both guards.


So be it! The New England Patriots have two first round and two second round draft picks.

1.) I never said you can't draft a good lineman in the middle or late rounds-you just usually have to wait a few years for them to contribute. Josh Sitton with the Packers is a superstud guard as a third year guy, and he barely played as a rookie. Vollmer's pretty good and he couldn't earn a starting spot out of training camp. That first year of weight training and learning a pro system is just incredibly important for linemen.

2.) If I ran the team I'd resign Mankins and Light, grab a guy like Pouncey at 28 or 33, and not start Connolly.

I don't think Connolly's particularly good-he may very well be the weakest starter on the team, and he was certainly the weakest offensive starter. But, as the old saw goes, there's a difference between a hope and a plan, and thinking some fifth round pick or street free agent is going to beat him out is a hope, not a plan.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

1.) I never said you can't draft a good lineman in the middle or late rounds-you just usually have to wait a few years for them to contribute. Josh Sitton with the Packers is a superstud guard as a third year guy, and he barely played as a rookie. Vollmer's pretty good and he couldn't earn a starting spot out of training camp. That first year of weight training and learning a pro system is just incredibly important for linemen.

2006 fourth round draft pick for the New Orleans Saints started all sixteen games in his rookie season.

Jahri Evans, G for the New Orleans Saints at NFL.com

2008 fifth round draft pick for the New Orleans Saints started 13 of 16 games in his rookie season.

Carl Nicks, G for the New Orleans Saints at NFL.com

So two rookie offensive guards for the New Orleans Saints offensive line start 29 of the possible 32 games.

2.) If I ran the team I'd resign Mankins and Light, grab a guy like Pouncey at 28 or 33, and not start Connolly.

Now we are talking strategy and solutions to the problem.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

A couple of things to keep in mind: Connolly was playing all season while Mankins wasn't, and then he got to come in, fresh as a dairy, in the middle.

That said, I would like an upgrade over Connolly AND to sign Ellis is possible

An upgrade over Connolly is mandatory whether it's the 28th or 33rd overall selection in the 2011 NFL Draft. Sean Ellis will turn 33 years of age next season and Ty Warren returns at the left defensive end position. I would hope the New England Patriots utilize the 17th overall selection on a potential 3-4 defensive end such as Cameron Jordan from California.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

I'm talking playoffs where Connolly was terrible. Dan Connolly was an undrafted free agent from the 2005 NFL Draft class. So after six NFL seasons, his performance against the Jets is the best he can do? Sean Ellis owned him in the first half. The New York Jets exploited the major weakness in the New England Patriots offensive line. That weakness needs to be corrected immediately via the 2011 NFL Draft.

Funny how three of the five starting offensive lineman for the New Orleans Saints are fourth rounders, including both offensive guards.

I've seen enough, time to move on without Dan Connolly.

So be it! The New England Patriots have two first round and two second round draft picks.

Dan Connolly was more than adequate most of the season. You want to replace him? Good, so do I, but he is one of the best backups in the NFL and an ok starter so I'm inclined to keep him, thanks. You can never have enough depth as we found out with our dline. Another reason we lost that game. And Spikes blown coverage didn't help either.

They gave up 5 sacks in the Jets game. Yes they were overpowered, but the wr's weren't getting open as quick as they usually do for Brady. They were blanketed like no other time this season.. Hence the coverage sacks because Brady held onto the ball too long.

We need help in the draft for sure, but I argue that Connolly is an ok Guard in this league who happened to have a few bad games this season against superior lineman.

The offensive line was not the reason we lost that game. It was a part of it along with the defense not being able to allow less points than the Jets did.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Dan Connolly was more than adequate most of the season. You want to replace him? Good, so do I, but he is one of the best backups in the NFL and an ok starter so I'm inclined to keep him.

You are entitled to your opinion, however I beg to differ.

You can never have enough depth as we found out with our dline. Another reason we lost that game.

I have previously stated the New England Patriots should utilize the 17th overall selection on a potential 3-4 defensive end such as Cameron Jordan from California.

And Spikes blown coverage didn't help either.

Blame the entire game on Brandon Spikes because of one play. Brilliant!

They gave up 5 sacks in the Jets game. Yes they were overpowered, but the wr's weren't getting open as quick as they usually do for Brady. They were blanketed like no other time this season. Hence the coverage sacks because Brady held onto the ball too long.

Dan Connolly was part of the problem and long term not the solution at offensive guard.

We need help in the draft for sure, but I argue that Connolly is an ok Guard in this league who happened to have a few bad games this season against superior lineman.

Dan Connolly is no Russ Hochstein.

The offensive line was not the reason we lost that game. It was a part of it along with the defense not being able to allow less points than the Jets did.

The New England Patriots offensive line was one of the reasons why the New England Patriots lost to the NY Jets and to deny that is to stick your head in the sand like an ostrich.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

So two rookie offensive guards for the New Orleans Saints offensive line start 29 of the possible 32 games.

The Saints rocked those picks, but "pick pro bowlers in the fourth and fifth round" isn't a strategy I'd like the Pats to rely on for 2011. We spent a fourth round pick on an guard-Ohrnberger-in 2008 and I haven't seen him seizing a starting job.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

The Saints rocked those picks, but "pick pro bowlers in the fourth and fifth round" isn't a strategy I'd like the Pats to rely on for 2011. We spent a fourth round pick on an guard-Ohrnberger-in 2008 and I haven't seen him seizing a starting job.

The New England Patriots need to do better in the latter rounds, especially when you can find a starting wide receiver in the seventh round, David Givens in 2002, a backup quarterback in the seventh round, Matt Cassel in 2005, a punt returner in the seventh round, Julian Edelman in 2009.

I would certainly hope the New England Patriots utilize either the #28 overall selection or #33 overall selection on an offensive guard.

 

[mgteich]

Re: 2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker

Oh yeah, the pats have been just terrible in the draft. Kipen just gave us an A plus, even with no production from Price.

Late rounds? How about Pryor, Deaderick and Edelman? plus UDFA's Fletcher and Love

The New England Patriots need to do better in the latter rounds, especially when you can find a starting wide receiver in the seventh round, David Givens in 2002, a backup quarterback in the seventh round, Matt Cassel in 2005, a punt returner in the seventh round, Julian Edelman in 2009.

I would certainly hope the New England Patriots utilize either the #28 overall selection or #33 overall selection on an offensive guard.