The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[The Dynasty]

1) You are wrong to imply that they are winning mostly BECAUSE OF turnovers. There are very few games that turnovers were the lynchpin to. In fact, turnovers have mostly led to piling up the margin of victory in a game won even without them.

2) Why would an experienced QB negate a teams takeaway strength but not negate a teams 3rd down conversion strength?
Don't you agree that a team that DEPENDS on stopping teams on 3rd down will have a hard time keeping that up against great QBs?

Colts and SD games were because of turnovers. Most of their wins the defense has not been tested because they offense has given them a double digit lead. My worry is that in the playoffs the defense wont get the cushion to work with.

Easier to stop a team on 3rd and long than get an interception, dont you agree?

That is basically non-responsive.
There are many teams better in yards and 3rd downs and none of them are 13-2. Many of them allow just about as many points as we do, so red zone D obviously matters.

Right, these teams arent playing with the Patriots offense. You would get the same result if one of those teams did play with the Patriot offense.

Turnovers INCREASE in the playoffs.
Good teams take the ball away. In the playoffs too.

Rookies and inexperienced guys can be depended on to force turnovers? You are almost calling it a certainty.

Good teams dont get stopped on 3rd down in the playoffs, or get held to few yards.
See, what you are doing is saying that good teams are good at what the Patriots take away, but you ignore that they are good at what other teams take away too.
Do you think that good teams don't convert 3rd downs or gain a lot of yards?

Easier to depend on this approach rather than the forcing turnovers approach.

Isnt every defense going to have to find a different way to win in the playoffs if what they do well is harder to do against good teams?

The Patriot defense over the last 3 months has allowed the 4th fewest points in the NFL. Is that not good enough?

What happens in the regular season means nothing. Didnt you learn this is 2007? or even last year with the Jets?

 

[Ring 6]

I just checked the box scores of the Patriots' games against Rivers, Manning, and other good QBs. There was at least 1 INT each against most of them. Flacco was the exception.

I think you will find that:
-Good yardage defenses allow more yards against good teams, but still limit them more than bad yardage teams
-Good 3rd down teams are worse on 3rd against good teams, but still better than most Ds against them
-Good turnover teams force less turnovers against good teams, yet more than other teams do

And on and on with all stats.
Its ignorant to suggest that there is one sole strength that doesnt show up against good teams.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd like to officially re-name this The Worst Defense in the History of the World with Three Pro Bowlers On It

Thank you all very much.

Actually 4.
Funny how the Jets kept telling us how they have so much more talent and they have 1 defensive pro-bowler and we have 4.

 

[The Dynasty]

You have shown no evidence of this.

You have shown no evidence of this either. And how did the Jets get to an AFCC is they had no experience? Your point you are using to back up your argument conflicts with your argument.

So? Once again you miss the point. There is no evidence that playoff experience and the amount of it is more important than simply being the best team, and the one that is at home.

There is no evidence because I dont think there has ever been a team with a defense so young go 13/14-2/3 and make the playoffs as the #1 seed. This is uncharted waters for this team.

 

[Ring 6]

Colts and SD games were because of turnovers. Most of their wins the defense has not been tested because they offense has given them a double digit lead. My worry is that in the playoffs the defense wont get the cushion to work with.

We did not win those games only because of turnovers, and if not we are still 11-4 and have the best record in the NFL.
The defense is tested every game. They are not HANDED leads, they contribute to building them. Are you really saying they deserve criticism for not letting the other team stay close?
There have been numerous games without 'cushion' and the D has done fine. In your world, when they are tied with Detriot in the late 3rd, then shut them out to win by a lot, the offense handed them a lead. Thats bizarre.
I will ask once again, what team out there has shown reason not to worry about their ability to protect a lead late. That is actually a strength in this team because while they havent had to every week, they havent blown leads like all the other teams have.
0 out of 5 is better than 4 out of 10.

Easier to stop a team on 3rd and long than get an interception, dont you agree?

Apples and oranges.
Equally easy to succeed in converting 3rd downs against a good 3rd down D as it is to not turn the ball over against a good takeaway defense.

Right, these teams arent playing with the Patriots offense. You would get the same result if one of those teams did play with the Patriot offense.

That is not correct. Besides you are trying to say they are BETTER not the same. The point is that they took different routes to allowing the same points and those routes are no better than the one our D took.

Rookies and inexperienced guys can be depended on to force turnovers? You are almost calling it a certainty.

How is saying that you are wrong to say what they have done all season will suddenly stop equals calling it a certainty?
Players that force turnovers force turnovers. Its not about experience its about making plays.

Easier to depend on this approach rather than the forcing turnovers approach.

No its not, because that strength is equally likely to not be there vs a good team.

What happens in the regular season means nothing. Didnt you learn this is 2007? or even last year with the Jets?

Once again, totally wrong.
The 2007 Patriots were 1 minute away from undefeated in the playoffs.
The Jets played good D and weak O vs Cincy who they beat in the reg season, beat SD in a close game just as the reg season would have suggested, and lost to Indy.
Rather than smart ass comments, look at reality.
What is the playoff record of the team that had a better regular season record? They DOMINATE. Once again your made up impression is 100% backwards.

It seems that you have now resorted to arguing that whatever anyone else says isnt 100% guaranteed so that makes you right. Come on Man.

 

[Ring 6]

There is no evidence because I dont think there has ever been a team with a defense so young go 13/14-2/3 and make the playoffs as the #1 seed. This is uncharted waters for this team.

I'm not asking for evidence of a defense this young being 13-2, I'm saying you are asserting that the defense cannot be expected to play well because of inexperience, and there is no evidence that this is true of any playoff team.

You cant say you are right that inexperience will hurt them becuase they are better than any team with that much experience.

 

[Joker]

OMG..this Diner Sty is worse than three root canals..

 

[Sporin]

I play in a 20 team league with a 13 round draft, all of those guys except Woody were drafted, I grabbed Hernandez myself. Welker went early for us, with BJGE not that far behind (I gambled on Fred Taylor)

But your point holds, and I agree with you completely. The talking heads go on and on about how "bad" this D is but they are 10-2.

Everyone knew going in that this was a young D that would need time to grow and learn... well no one predicted they'd get as good as they are so fast, though they've had some growing pains along the way.

Season long stats just don't tell the tale.

 

[RayClay]

Easier to stop a team on 3rd and long than get an interception, dont you agree?

No, that makes no sense. If you are giving Peyton Manning a cushion, because you fear easy touchdowns (big plays) you can force him to make mistakes, get interceptions, and you are less concerned about third downs.

For a big passer, Touchdowns = much more important than third downs.

This actually happened, we won, we did not get stops on third down, yet we got three interceptions. This is not a hypothetical, anymore than the Pittsburgh playoff game and Rams Super Bowl in 2001, or the Eagles Super bowl victory.

You keep stating things as fact based on nothing, while I offer actual historical examples where Patriots teams lost the third down or yardage battle, yet won because of turnovers.

Big games. 2of 3 of our Super Bowl wins. This years game against the NFL's premier passer. We have and can win games we play soft and trap passing teams into mistakes. These are historical fact.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I play in a 20 team league with a 13 round draft, all of those guys except Woody were drafted, I grabbed Hernandez myself. Welker went early for us, with BJGE not that far behind (I gambled on Fred Taylor)

But your point holds, and I agree with you completely. The talking heads go on and on about how "bad" this D is but they are 10-2.

Everyone knew going in that this was a young D that would need time to grow and learn... well no one predicted they'd get as good as they are so fast, though they've had some growing pains along the way.

Season long stats just don't tell the tale.

No offense Sporin, but I'm pretty sure that if you're in a 20 team league with a 13 round draft, I was drafted in your league.

 

[RayClay]

You have made one point, that we have not yet proven to be able to shut a team out if our offense sputters. Though true, we also have not proven we can't. It is possible, if our offense and defense both play poorly, we could be one of the 31 teams who don't win the super bowl.

That's not really saying much, I don't believe there is a flawless team out there, so i like our chances.

 

[Keyser Söze]

I'd like to officially re-name this The Worst Defense in the History of the World with Three Pro Bowlers On It

Thank you all very much.

I'm not saying the defense is bad, but having three pro bowlers doesnt mean squat. Meriweather takes angles like a Pop Warner player and he made it, fans get to vote....and they don't just vote on talent.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Good teams don't turn the ball over. That is the basis of my argument as to why the Patriots way of playing defense might come back to haunt them in the playoffs. Good teams don't turn the ball over in the playoffs, good teams capitalize on being in the red zone. These are the teams the Patriots will be facing in the playoffs. Either the Patriots offense will have to carry them like they have been or the Patriots defense might need to find a different way to win in the playoffs.

Well, the Patriots have already played and beaten these teams this year (all except Kansas City which, despite its record, is arguably the weakest of the AFC playoff teams).

Your claim at this point seems to be that these teams are going to turn the ball over less in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. Is this just your belief in a cliche or have you actually looked at turnovers in playoff games vs. turnovers in the regular season for teams that made the playoffs? Somehow, I'm guessing it's the former.

Since you're basing a lot of your argument on this point (turnovers might win for the Patriots defense during the regular season but shouldn't during the playoffs), you might want to see if the facts actually bear this claim out.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, the Patriots have already played and beaten these teams this year (all except Kansas City which, despite its record, is arguably the weakest of the AFC playoff teams).

Your claim at this point seems to be that these teams are going to turn the ball over less in the playoffs than they did in the regular season. Is this just your belief in a cliche or have you actually looked at turnovers in playoff games vs. turnovers in the regular season for teams that made the playoffs? Somehow, I'm guessing it's the former.

Since you're basing a lot of your argument on this point (turnovers might win for the Patriots defense during the regular season but shouldn't during the playoffs), you might want to see if the facts actually bear this claim out.

Statistically speaking, HoF caliber, SB winning QBs pretty much play great in the playoffs (Montana, Warner and Brees are better in the post-season on a per-game average than regular season, while Manning, Brady and Roethlisberger are worse)

Seeing that this defense is 4-0 vs quality QBs this year, in theory the defense will still perform.

My .02$

 

[Fahrenhype]

Stats for the whole season through week 16:

Defense
Total defense: 14th AFC, 27th NFL - 374.3 yards per game
Rushing: 8th AFC, 16th NFL - 112.3 ypg
Passing: 15th AFC, 30th NFL - 262.0 ypg
3rd down efficiency: 16th AFC, 32d NFL - 48.2 percent
Red zone: 8th AFC, 17th NFL - 54.0 TD percentage (27 TD/50 red-zone chances)
Take-aways: 1st AFC, 1st NFL - 36 (24 INTs, 12 fumble recoveries)

Their league leading takeaways combined with the offense never committing a stupid turnover is really bailing their butts out. I knew the passing and third down stats had to be horrendous and those numbers just confirm it. Just goes to show how truly valuable Brady's mistake free efficiency has been to the team.

Middle of the road rush defense is good since it could force opponents into trying to push for bigger plays when they are trailing and turn the ball over, but that third down percentage could be the one thing that kills them in the playoffs. The Packers game showed us two things:

01. Even if Brady only has the ball for a ridiculously short amount of time, he is putting points on the board. 24 points in 19 minutes is amazing against the #1 scoring defense.

02. An efficient, clock killing offense has a terrific chance of knocking off the Pats because the defense does not get itself off the field if it isn't forcing a turnover, and Brady can't throw touchdown basses on the bench.

Any game where the opposing team doesn't turn the ball over is going to be difficult. I hope the third down issue is Belichick's primary focus going into the divisional round.

 

[The Dynasty]

Statistically speaking, HoF caliber, SB winning QBs pretty much play great in the playoffs (Montana, Warner and Brees are better in the post-season on a per-game average than regular season, while Manning, Brady and Roethlisberger are worse)

Seeing that this defense is 4-0 vs quality QBs this year, in theory the defense will still perform.

My .02$

Depending on the turnover in the playoffs is a risky way of playing, that is all I have been saying in this whole thread. I have never said that it cant be successful, I have just said its a risky way of playing defense.

 

[RayClay]

Depending on the turnover in the playoffs is a risky way of playing, that is all I have been saying in this whole thread. I have never said that it cant be successful, I have just said its a risky way of playing defense.

No it's not! I have given actual examples, 2 of our 3 Super Bowls, for instance. Failing to protect against the big play and giving up touchdowns over the top is riskier! Why do you think giving the top qbs in the game lots of chances to go long is safe? It is not logical.

People complain that BB should take more risks by playing tight and sending more people on the rush. Manning had a long pass of 28 yards including YAC. That's playing it safe and forcing the QB to take the risk.

Our defense requires patience and planning. It is very frustrating for QBs that like to go wide open.

 

[The Dynasty]

No it's not! I have given actual examples, 2 of our 3 Super Bowls, for instance. Failing to protect against the big play and giving up touchdowns over the top is riskier! Why do you think giving the top qbs in the game lots of chances to go long is safe? It is not logical.

People complain that BB should take more risks by playing tight and sending more people on the rush. Manning had a long pass of 28 yards including YAC. That's playing it safe and forcing the QB to take the risk.

Our defense requires patience and planning. It is very frustrating for QBs that like to go wide open.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, I am not looking for the Patriots to change their whole defensive philosophy. They are weak in the pass rushing area, so they will never be a blitzing team. They play a "bend but dont break and take" defense. It is really risky to expect good quarterbacks to turn the ball over to a young and inexperienced defense. It's a huge positive when it happens, but you cannot depend on it.

 

[RayClay]

Not sure what you are trying to say here, I am not looking for the Patriots to change their whole defensive philosophy. They are weak in the pass rushing area, so they will never be a blitzing team. They play a "bend but dont break and take" defense. It is really risky to expect good quarterbacks to turn the ball over to a young and inexperienced defense. It's a huge positive when it happens, but you cannot depend on it.

Well, if you play tight coverage and blitz to prevent them form getting the first down on 3rd and ten, these good QBs are likely to pick it up and go for a long one, maybe a touchdown.

Your risk, a 10 yard first down, or a touchdown. There are no points given for a first down.

If you're not trolling, I think it's beyond the point of you understanding this.

If you don't think Bill Belichick can devise a game plan preventing big plays and making other teams pass more often, concocting traps and disguising defenses, I can't help you there either. He has been known as a pretty good defensive mind for quite a long time and has consistently done what you say no one can consistently do.

 

[The Dynasty]

Well, if you play tight coverage and blitz to prevent them form getting the first down on 3rd and ten, these good QBs are likely to pick it up and go for a long one, maybe a touchdown.

Your risk, a 10 yard first down, or a touchdown. There are no points given for a first down.

If you're not trolling, I think it's beyond the point of you understanding this.

If you don't think Bill Belichick can devise a game plan preventing big plays and making other teams pass more often, concocting traps and disguising defenses, I can't help you there either. He has been known as a pretty good defensive mind for quite a long time and has consistently done what you say no one can consistently do.

So by your theory, you want the Patriots to sit back and allow first downs, as long as they arent big plays. Teams can do this all the way down the field, and then you are expecting an interception/fumble in the red zone? Is this anyway to play good quarterbacks in the playoffs? Sooner or later you need to get some stops.

No, I am not trolling, that last point was ridiculous.