Making Believe At Wide Receiver

[BradyManny]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

The Moss trade was another blunder by BB, because he didn't have an adequate replacement available. Moving players without adequate replacement has become an unfortunate pattern for BB, with Samuel, Hobbs, Seymour, Maroney and Galloway being other recent examples. However those players may have done/are doing/will do elsewhere, they were all significantly better than their replacements during their time as Patriots, and none of them needed to be lost.

I'm really not one to criticize BB ever, but I have no argument on Seymour or Moss. The other cases, I don't agree. Galloway was a bust of epic proportions. In Samuel's case, you'd have to think one of our many top CB draft picks would pan out. But with Seymour, we still don't have a replacement in sight, and the same goes for Moss. Those two situations were unique. We took chances, the Seymour one hasn't paid off; the Moss one, not so far.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Seeing Jacoby Ford bust out in the Oakland game though, I have to wonder...

Jacoby Ford vs Taylor Price. Price (3rd) was drafted first but Ford (4th) has the afterburners... hmmm. Has BB become gunshy from taking speeders after being burned on the Bethel Johnson pick?

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Seeing Jacoby Ford bust out in the Oakland game though, I have to wonder...

Jacoby Ford vs Taylor Price. Price (3rd) was drafted first but Ford (4th) has the afterburners... hmmm. Has BB become gunshy from taking speeders after being burned on the Bethel Johnson pick?

The Buccanears Mike Williams was also drafted in the 4th round and he's on pace for 72 receptions and 10 TDs.....

I've heard many here call Taylor Price a "project". Can someone explain to me the risk/reward of drafting a project? What's this mean, Taylor won't be able to play for the year since the system is complicated but he could be a top 3 WR from the draft one day?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

I'm really not one to criticize BB ever, but I have no argument on Seymour or Moss. The other cases, I don't agree. Galloway was a bust of epic proportions. In Samuel's case, you'd have to think one of our many top CB draft picks would pan out. But with Seymour, we still don't have a replacement in sight, and the same goes for Moss. Those two situations were unique. We took chances, the Seymour one hasn't paid off; the Moss one, not so far.

It's not the trade/release. It's the lack of adequate replacement. For example, Galloway was a bust, as you put it, but he was still a much better option than Aiken.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Galloway was cut precisely because he was NOT a better option than Aiken. However, it was right to bring in Galloway in the hope that he could have been a better option.

It's not the trade/release. It's the lack of adequate replacement. For example, Galloway was a bust, as you put it, but he was still a much better option than Aiken.

 

[D-Money]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Mike Williams from syracuse was a guy that looked the part.I wanted them to draft him.He had his off the field issues but he played very well.I still think O'Brien's not the guy to be calling plays for this team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Galloway was cut precisely because he was NOT a better option than Aiken. However, it was right to bring in Galloway in the hope that he could have been a better option.

History demonstrated quite conclusively that Galloway would have been the better option. As bad as you think Galloway was, he still had 7 catches in 3 games (2 starts and, essentially, done after the Jets game), and kept defenses from collapsing on Moss and Welker. Aiken played in 14 games, had 7 starts, and managed only 20 catches while being bad enough that teams could all but ignore him and ramp up the coverage on Moss and Welker. The move to cut Galloway, because it left only Aiken as the option, was a mistake.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Seeing Jacoby Ford bust out in the Oakland game though, I have to wonder...

Jacoby Ford vs Taylor Price. Price (3rd) was drafted first but Ford (4th) has the afterburners... hmmm. Has BB become gunshy from taking speeders after being burned on the Bethel Johnson pick?

Price is a burner himself (4.41 40 was second only to Ford) - just with upside for a complete package.

Price had a pretty tough camp & preseason from all accounts, and is coming in at a huge disadvantage given his college background. That said, maybe he gets on the field at some point.

 

[mgteich]

This is utter nonesense.

The passing game needs help. It needs to have playcalling that understands the strengths and limitations of its players. And yes, dare I say it, Brady may need to be in the shotgun more, while the receivers get healthier and are more able to separate from the defenders.

Receivers are injured or coming back from injury (all four are in this category).
There are some young receivers (TE's) who are learning on the job.

Brady is still #8 in completion percentage. The passing game isn't yet in synch. It is learning a new set of schemes with less emphasis on the long ball and more emphasis on the tight ends.

The answer is not to give up on the passing game and think that we can be a top running game, without a reliable running back and without a fullback. If anything Price might might be activated and get a few reps while others are injured.

The OPEN question is how healthy our receivers will be in the stretch run and in the playoffs.

.Bottom line, if the New England Patriots passing game is struggling then it's back to the running game. It's time for the offensive line to man up and start playing smash mouth football!

 

[ATippett56]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

History demonstrated quite conclusively that Galloway would have been the better option. The move to cut Galloway, because it left only Aiken as the option, was a mistake.

I always felt that Aiken was brought in for his special teams play just like Matt Slater was drafted for his supposed special teams play. Unfortunately, Matt Slater special teams play is nothing special.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

Thank you for your clarification. I now agree with your point. It was indeed unreasonable to cut Galloway. As with others, he may have been a better option later in the season, even if he wasn't at the point that he was cut. There was no reason to force the team to depend so heavily on Aiken for the rest of the year.

History demonstrated quite conclusively that Galloway would have been the better option. As bad as you think Galloway was, he still had 7 catches in 3 games (2 starts and, essentially, done after the Jets game), and kept defenses from collapsing on Moss and Welker. Aiken played in 14 games, had 7 starts, and managed only 20 catches while being bad enough that teams could all but ignore him and ramp up the coverage on Moss and Welker. The move to cut Galloway, because it left only Aiken as the option, was a mistake.

 

[The_Riddler]

This is utter nonesense.
Receivers are injured or coming back from injury (all four are in this category).
There are some young receivers (TE's) who are learning on the job.

Interesting, the Colts have lost the best pass-catching TE in football, insert a Jacob Tamme and don't lose a beat. He loses Collie, Gonzalez and his top 2 running backs and #18 is still, somehow, getting it done. Our excuses about injuries and youth are tough to buy really, other people are making it work with a heck of alot less.

Call it like it is.

Tom Brady has to be a better QB, he has to prepare a bit harder, his accuracy is reflective of that, and he has said himself that he has to improve. People talk about the completion %, do you recall how many catches Gronk has had to make with the ball behind his arse so far this season? Do you remember those ? There's been a number of those catches made that have improved TB's passing %, yet is really not reflective of the pass that was made and where the pass was placed. That one to Gronk in the flat yesterday that he badly missed on, if Gronk catches that ball, that was a 30 yard gain with him running it, there was no one in sight. The heave to Woodhead down the sideline ? What was that ? And a few other grounders and feet throws that we all saw yesterday, that has to improve. Those are all throws that a PM makes in his sleep never mind Rivers or Brees, Brady's accuracy simply has to improve.

 

[ATippett56]

This is utter nonesense.

Utter nonsense huh? Revisit the second half of the 2007 AFC Championship Game. Brady was struggling and threw three interceptions with all that talent at wide receiver (Moss, Stallworth, Gaffney, Welker). McDaniels adjusted the game plan and the New England Patriots ran the ball in second half with Laurence Maroney against the San Diego Chargers. The New England Patriots ran the ball in second half of the Minnesota Vikings game just the week before.

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting, the Colts have lost the best pass-catching TE in football, insert a Jacob Tamme and don't lose a beat. He loses Collie, Gonzalez and his top 2 running backs and #18 is still, somehow, getting it done. Our excuses about injuries and youth are tough to buy really, other people are making it work with a heck of alot less.

The Indianpolis Mannings run a timing offense, which is easier for players to learn than a reading offense.

Manning has completed fewer than 60% of his passes in 3 games this season. 2 of those games have been the 2 games without Clark.

Manning has had a QB rating under 90 in 3 games this season. 2 of those games have been the 2 games without Clark.


The Indianapolis Mannings also lost yesterday, with Manning having his first multiple pick game of the season. That team is 5-3 after a 14-2 season last year, while the Patriots have managed to get to 6-2 after a 10-6 season last year.


The Colts have pretty clearly "lost a beat".

 

[BradyManny]

Interesting, the Colts have lost the best pass-catching TE in football, insert a Jacob Tamme and don't lose a beat.

How did they not lose a beat? Having watched both games in entirety, I can definitively say that Brady outplayed Manning yesterday, at least. Not that that says much. And that's including the stat-padding crap that happened after the silly 4th down Eagles roughing penalty. Indy looked even worse had that game ended when it should've. If you are referring to MNF last week against Houston, it's worth noting Houston is just about the worst pass defense in the league.

I'm not discounting Indy, they'll always be in it - because of Peyton. But they have definitely "lost a beat".

 

[The_Riddler]

How did they not lose a beat? Having watched both games in entirety, I can definitively say that Brady outplayed Manning yesterday, at least. Not that that says much. And that's including the stat-padding crap that happened after the silly 4th down Eagles roughing penalty. Indy looked even worse had that game ended when it should've. If you are referring to MNF last week against Houston, it's worth noting Houston is just about the worst pass defense in the league.

I'm not discounting Indy, they'll always be in it - because of Peyton. But they have definitely "lost a beat".

Don't take "Lost a beat" literally. Let's look at things "relatively" then OK ?
PM, as mentioned goes into that game without Dallas Clark, his top 2 RBs, they start a guy off the street, Collie gets blown up and carted off and he still gave his team a chance to win that game. Brady has his full compliment of offense parts, everyone is there and playing, how do you compare that to what Manning has been left with ?

 

[D-Money]

Re: Making Believe At Wide Reciever

The colts might have lost a beat but they surely will give this team problems.The only way to get to Manning is to put pressure on him and that offensive gives up the least amount of sacks.The DBs will really need to cover something they have problems doing.

 

[ATippett56]

The Indianapolis Mannings also lost yesterday, with Manning having his first multiple pick game of the season.

You can thank ex-Patriot Asante Samuel for that.

 

[BradyManny]

Don't take "Lost a beat" literally. Let's look at things "relatively" then OK ?
PM, as mentioned goes into that game without Dallas Clark, his top 2 RBs, they start a guy off the street, Collie gets blown up and carted off and he still gave his team a chance to win that game. Brady has his full compliment of offense parts, everyone is there and playing, how do you compare that to what Manning has been left with ?

Yes, woe is Manning - left with a future Hall of Famer Reggie Wayne.

What does Brady have? An ineffective Welker? A banged up Branch? What has Brandon Tate done compared to Pierre Garcon? Aaron Hernandez was passed up 112 times just this April and is the youngest player in the NFL, and he's our most reliable offensive weapon? Suddenly teams should be envious? Danny Woodhead is straight off the Jets' scrap heap.

I mean, come on - these guys were all great parts when we had an offense that was clicking.

But they've all been bumped up one on the depth chart, and its not sufficing right now. Brady is certainly not playing well right now. He looks off, his throws are off. But to say the supporting cast doesn't have anything to do with that is a little silly.

 

[The_Riddler]

Yes, woe is Manning - left with a sure-fire Hall of Famer Reggie Wayne.

What does Brady have? An ineffective Welker? A banged up Branch? What has Brandon Tate done compared to Pierre Garcon? Aaron Hernandez was passed up 112 times just this April and is the youngest player in the NFL, and he's our most reliable offensive weapon? Suddenly teams should be envious? Danny Woodhead is straight off the Jets' scrap heap.

I mean, come on - these guys were all great parts when we had an offense that was clicking.

But they've all been bumped up one on the depth chart, and its not sufficing right now. Brady is certainly not playing well right now. He looks off, his throws are off. But to say the supporting cast doesn't have anything to do with that is a little silly.

Fair enough, someone finally agrees that TB hasn't been his old accurate self to date, thanks for stepping up to the plate and not trying to find excuses to say that he's been fine and it's 100% on other issues, because that's the furthest thing from the truth. I agree, I think aside from the TE's, his supporting cast is pretty mediocre to be honest, Welker aside. Believe me, I wasn't one of those on the bandwagon like a Michael Felger of feeling like Brandon Tate and the remaining parts will more than fill in for the loss of Moss. How stupid is he looking right now?, both him and Tanguay.

Tate is too damn small to be outside the hashes as I've stated, when you are that small and you can't separate on the edges, then there are issues and Tate is showing exactly that right now. I know he's still young, but you know what, this is crazy, TB isn't getting any younger, yet we have to wait for draft picks to develop ? I mean really?