Will BenJarvus Green-Ellis Make the 53?

[Ring 6]

. We were the better team had we merely made them play honest. we didn't. I don't think many playoff games go to the team that wins the individual battles. The got to the team that makes the other team react, spreads them, fools them so that they can dominate with their strength, or conversely, take what the D gives them.

Your comments conflict with each other.
You say we were the better team so we should have won.
But then you say games arent won by players winning individual battles with each other they are won by coaching and strategy.

Are you saying the better team wins football games, or that bad players with good coaching should win every time.

Surely you couldn't mean that blocking tackling, running, defending are irrelevant, which you suggested?
Individual battles mean my guy blocking your guy, my guy covering your guy, my guy tackling your guy, etc, etc. You seem to have called that irrelevant and that plays are made on a chalkboard, not by players.
I don't think you believe that so I'm giving you an opportunity to clarify.

 

[Ring 6]

So then you are saying that Morris has shown a lot this preseason?

And you are saying that Kevin Faulk is not a lock?

See what happens when I try to get cute.

 

[eagle eye]

If we keep him he will be inactive until we have 2 RBs injured.
We cant have 5 active RBs. There is no room. We really should have only 3, but given the abilities of the ones we have its somewhat possible that all 4 would be active if all were healthy, but no way 3+ BJGE would be active if one were injured.
What other position would we be keeping a player who wouldnt see the field without 2 injuries?
You state the reason is because we would lose him? He is a borderline NFL RB. If he had a plethora of injuries there are 30 other borderline NFL RBs out there to sign for emergency service.

Personally I rate Lawfirm as much more than a jag. When he came in last season he was impressive, this preseason he has been impressive.

Now Maroney, Taylor and Faulk are locks imo. Faulk is very versatile, Maroney and Taylor are both really good rbs if they stay fit. Morris does a job too but again if he stays fit.
This is the problem, none of them are certain to stay fit for the season, in fact it would not surprise me to see us at some stage this season with only one of the above fit as was the case last season.

So I'm here thinking we either keep 4 TEs or 5 RBs and its looking more likely that we keep 3 TEs so I think BJGE gets a spot.

I understand your concern about the amount of OL we keep but I think its far easier to stash away some of them. Just like I'm not willing to give up on Maroney yet, I'm certainly not willing to let Lawfirm walk.

 

[eagle eye]

See what happens when I try to get cute.

Hehe sorry, a bit pedantic on my end I know.

 

[RayClay]

Your comments conflict with each other.
You say we were the better team so we should have won.
But then you say games arent won by players winning individual battles with each other they are won by coaching and strategy.

Are you saying the better team wins football games, or that bad players with good coaching should win every time.

Surely you couldn't mean that blocking tackling, running, defending are irrelevant, which you suggested?
Individual battles mean my guy blocking your guy, my guy covering your guy, my guy tackling your guy, etc, etc. You seem to have called that irrelevant and that plays are made on a chalkboard, not by players.
I don't think you believe that so I'm giving you an opportunity to clarify.

You know what i meant, why waste your time playing with semantics.

The Giants best chance to win was trumping our strength by going all out on the pass rush. We had many ways to win, but they gambled we'd play into their hands by passing almost every down.

I think we had more talent all around, if that makes you feel better.

 

[Garbanza]

How is he 'not close to fulfiling his alleged potential'?
Did you have a problem with his 06 rookie season rushing for 700+ yards and a good average while splitting time with Corey Dillon?
Did you have a problem with him being the #1 back on the highest scoring offense in NFL history in 2007? Or his rushing average?
Or is he not fulfilling his potential because he broke a bone in 2008?

Anyone who describes his running style as dancing is putting a negatvie connotation to the comment,and implying ignorance toward the situation.
A RB does not hesitate because they don't know what to do, or because they are afraid to be hit, they hesitate because they are allowing the blocking to develop.
The fact is when there is no hole it doesnt really matter what the RB does, its going to get the same result. Putting your head down or trying to cutback to make the guy miss both will get about the same result. When the blocking is great, no back will hestiate.

What we are talking about are the plays where a hole is or is not developing. Maroney's running style is to hestitate to allow it to develop. That looks bad on the plays when it does not, but putting your head down and running into the pile doesn't work much better. When the hole DOES open, Maroneys style gets him thorugh it, while the non-hesitating back hits the hole before it opens.

Essentially what you are seeing and complaining about is when there is no hole when the back gets the handoff, AND none develops thereafter, Maroneys hesitiation was for naught, but it looks like he is confused, uncertain, indecisive, while the non-hestitant RB bangs into a tackler and you blame the blocking.
That is the point of looking at results. The guys running with the style you like better arent getting better results, they just have a style that makes it look like the blockings fault to you when there is no hole, while Maroneys style seems to you to be his fault when there is no hole.

You seem like a nice guy, Andy - but jeez, enough already. Watch Maroney tonight - then watch the other backs. Then tell me he does not "dance"...wait "hesitate" .....and then tell me other RB's don't "dance"...wait "hesitate" nearly as much....behind the SAME LINE. And, please do not tell me that Maroney's style leads me to fault him, where the other styles make me fault the line. I've never done that. All I am doing is stating what anyone with eyes, and open mind and no agenda understands - and that is that Maroney has issues.

 

[JackBauer]

I think the bigger question is "Does Sammy Morris make the roster?".

I love Sammy and hope he does make it, but he hasn't shown much this pre-season, while Taylor and Green-Ellis have looked good.

Faulk is a lock.

Maroney a probable lock just because the Pats seem to really want this guy to succeed and they look like they're committed to at least one more season of tentative approaches at the line, inability to hit holes quickly, excessive dancing behind the tackles, and all those other great "Maroney-isms".

If it were my call, it would be Faulk, Morris, Taylor and BJGE.

BJGE will be a star once he becomes an every down back.

With all due respect, this is coming from the guy who derisively referred to Seymour as "Big Poo$ey" after the 2007 season, and lo and behold he went out and dominated again last year.

So, in sum, I wouldn't really listen to your prognostications if you paid me. You could take the time and read through this thread since BradyFTW pretty much obliterates all those crap and wildly inaccurate descriptions of Maroney.

 

[JackBauer]

You seem like a nice guy, Andy - but jeez, enough already. Watch Maroney tonight - then watch the other backs. Then tell me he does not "dance"...wait "hesitate" .....and then tell me other RB's don't "dance"...wait "hesitate" nearly as much....behind the SAME LINE. And, please do not tell me that Maroney's style leads me to fault him, where the other styles make me fault the line. I've never done that. All I am doing is stating what anyone with eyes, and open mind and no agenda understands - and that is that Maroney has issues.

Imagine that! Despite all this purported "dancing," Maroney still produces as much (and more efficiently) than the other backs on the roster (sans Taylor, since we have no idea what he's capable of).

As BradyFTW already explained to you, dancing RBs have very low success rates. Maroney does not.

"There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind. The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it."

 

[Garbanza]

Imagine that! Despite all this purported "dancing," Maroney still produces as much (and more efficiently) than the other backs on the roster (sans Taylor, since we have no idea what he's capable of).

As BradyFTW already explained to you, dancing RBs have very low success rates. Maroney does not.

"There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind. The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it."

Ah, stats. They don't tell the whole story and you know it. Anyway. Watch tonight. Watch closely. Watch opening day. Watch closely. If you open your mind - set aside the agenda and personal feelings - and watch, you will see.

 

[JackBauer]

Ah, stats. They don't tell the whole story and you know it. Anyway. Watch tonight. Watch closely. Watch opening day. Watch closely. If you open your mind - set aside the agenda and personal feelings - and watch, you will see.

I know they tell a much more comprehensive story than a collage of random anecdotes. I find it laughable that you're telling me to set aside my agenda, as if you're the voice of objectivity in this whole matter.

And what will it tell you when Maroney is, once again, the starting RB for the Patriots this year?

 

[JFK]

Morris has been our best RB for the past 2yrs. If anyone is going, it should be BJGE...Do you guys think Faulk would be resigned when his contract is over? I can see Maroney playing his role.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Here is Mike Reiss' reply during his Thursday noon time chat today regarding the choice between Morris or BJGE. I'm not saying he's right, but still very interesting...

12:38 Comment from Joe: If you had to choose just one, Sammy Morris or Ben Jarvis Green Ellis?
12:39 Comment from Mike Reiss: Very tough. I'll go Green-Ellis, thinking a bit to the long-term.

How is it that Mike Reiss can't see what so many here see? -the commonly held opinion thet BJGE is just a JAG, nothing more nothing less... unless you consider Morris just another older JAG coming off of injury.

We'll know soon enough, but I think BJGE makes the 53 man roster. And with that, I now return the thread back to Maroney talk all day, every day.

Morris definitely isn't a JAG. He's not on Maroney's level, but he's a very effective rotation back--much, much better than BJGE, for sure. If he gets cut, it will be because of injury. Also, Mike Reiss is a good guy and a talented writer, but his analytical skills are lacking, to say the least. He's wrong about personnel decisions more often than he's right.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ah, stats. They don't tell the whole story and you know it. Anyway. Watch tonight. Watch closely. Watch opening day. Watch closely. If you open your mind - set aside the agenda and personal feelings - and watch, you will see.

They tell enough of it. What you're arguing is equally as absurd as claiming that a .300 hitter has trouble making contact with the ball. It's just demonstrably untrue and inherently stupid. Either way, I will be watching tonight. When BJGE takes some snaps against a first-string defense, I'll start to believe that there's even a *chance* that Belichick's considering him for a significant role on the 2009 team. Until then, he's, at best, emergency fodder. That's what he was in 2008, which is why he had exactly 2 carries over the rest of the season after Jordan and Morris came back (both in the blowout loss to Pittsburgh).

Morris has been our best RB for the past 2yrs. If anyone is going, it should be BJGE...Do you guys think Faulk would be resigned when his contract is over? I can see Maroney playing his role.

Based on what? Maroney has been better in just about every conceivable way. Higher DVOA, higher success rating, higher YPC, higher DYAR, same number of games missed due to injury, more carries, more yards, and he's kicked ass in the playoffs. Morris has one more TD, though, so I guess he has that going for him. And neither one of them is a very good blocker, either.

as far as Faulk, that is a tough one. He's getting older, but he's still really, phenomenally good. Frankly, he's almost criminally underrated on this board, which is just a testament to how valuable he really is, since everyone here likes him and they still don't give him his proper due. He posts mind-bogglingly good DVOAs year in and year out, which firmly establish him as the best 3DRB in the league, and right up there with MJD and Matt Forte as the best dual threats in the league.

I think they do re-sign him, but wouldn't be too surprised either way, considering his age. As for Maroney taking his role, that I don't see. I can see why you would think that, since he could be an incredibly versatile threat to catch passes out of the backfield and work in open space, but the reality is that he still isn't a great pass blocker (although he's working on it) and he caught all of 5 passes in 2007. Not saying that he couldn't get there if that's what Belichick wanted him to be (he did catch 22 passes as a rookie), but it seems that there are other plans for him.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I think the bigger question is "Does Sammy Morris make the roster?".

I love Sammy and hope he does make it, but he hasn't shown much this pre-season, while Taylor and Green-Ellis have looked good.

Faulk is a lock.

Maroney a probable lock just because the Pats seem to really want this guy to succeed and they look like they're committed to at least one more season of tentative approaches at the line, inability to hit holes quickly, excessive dancing behind the tackles, and all those other great "Maroney-isms".

If it were my call, it would be Faulk, Morris, Taylor and BJGE.

BJGE will be a star once he becomes an every down back.

Everytime I think that the bar has been set for how wrong a single post can be, someone comes along and completely blows it out of the water.

 

[Deus Irae]

You know what i meant, why waste your time playing with semantics.

The Giants best chance to win was trumping our strength by going all out on the pass rush. We had many ways to win, but they gambled we'd play into their hands by passing almost every down.

I think we had more talent all around, if that makes you feel better.

Actually, the Giants best chance to win was to have Brady still coming off of an injury that limited his mobility, and then have a starting lineman go down to injury. This would give the rushing players an easier time getting through the line and would keep Brady from avoiding that rush once the player beat the lineman in front of him.

Also, by rushing just the normal 4 men with an occasional blitz, the Giants would be able to keep Moss blanketed and keep Welker underneath so his YAC didn't kill the team.

If, after they did that, they got really lucky on some plays, they could then keep the game close and win a low scoring affair.

How'd that work out for them, given that they were able to shut down the Patriots running game both times by simply beating the offensive linemen in front of them?

 

[RayClay]

Actually, the Giants best chance to win was to have Brady still coming off of an injury that limited his mobility, and then have a starting lineman go down to injury. This would give the rushing players an easier time getting through the line and would keep Brady from avoiding that rush once the player beat the lineman in front of him.

Also, by rushing just the normal 4 men with an occasional blitz, the Giants would be able to keep Moss blanketed and keep Welker underneath so his YAC didn't kill the team.

If, after they did that, they got really lucky on some plays, they could then keep the game close and win a low scoring affair.

How'd that work out for them, given that they were able to shut down the Patriots running game both times by simply beating the offensive linemen in front of them?

Huh?

Nobodes saying the Giants weren't effective. Yes they covered the running game and short zones adequately also. Almost any hand could have been played differently. We were plenty healthy and talented. We didn't force them to commit in a way that would have reduced the pressure, simple as that.

That Giants team sure wasn't considered unbeatable.

 

[Patspsycho]

Well, here's throwing gas onto the fire- Matt Bowen from NFP is suggesting that Maroney is on the bubble. This takes even me by surprise.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Well, here's throwing gas onto the fire- Matt Bowen from NFP is suggesting that Maroney is on the bubble. This takes even me by surprise.

Like I said yesterday Sirius used Maroney as possible trade bait with Cincy or Philly - I don't know if he would fit in either place but anyone that thinks Maroney is a lock to stay could get shocked..unlikely but who knows?

 

[Deus Irae]

Huh?

Nobodes saying the Giants weren't effective. Yes they covered the running game and short zones adequately also. Almost any hand could have been played differently. We were plenty healthy and talented. We didn't force them to commit in a way that would have reduced the pressure, simple as that.

That Giants team sure wasn't considered unbeatable.

Ok, so how would they have done this, given that the players weren't capable of doing it that day?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Imagine that! Despite all this purported "dancing," Maroney still produces as much (and more efficiently) than the other backs on the roster (sans Taylor, since we have no idea what he's capable of).

As BradyFTW already explained to you, dancing RBs have very low success rates. Maroney does not.

"There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind. The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it."

I feel pretty confident stating that Maroney > Taylor, at this point in their respective careers. Over the last couple of years, the only thing that Taylor has over Maroney is quantity of carries.

I'm willing to grant that 2008 wasn't representative of what Taylor's capable of, since he was playing behind one of the most patchwork, injured OLs in recent history.

Looking at 2007 though, which was Taylor's last big year as well, Maroney was better in DYAR (situationally adjusted volume stat), DVOA (situationally adjusted efficiency stat) and WAY better in success rate. In fact, Taylor, ironically, fits the profile of a classic 'hit-or-miss', 'boom-or-bust' RB.