Tom Brady Was the Most-Hit QB in the League, from 2006-2007

[Deus Irae]

OK you win. There's no point arguing with an armchair expert who judges everything with his own eyes and dismisses any possible stats on the subject.

You're also wrong about the intention of this thread. McKid is already gone to show his immaturity and lack of situational awareness with another team. The offense is already going to be different with his departure and a new coordinator.

Irony, writ large

 

[Ring 6]

OK you win. There's no point arguing with an armchair expert who judges everything with his own eyes and dismisses any possible stats on the subject.

You're also wrong about the intention of this thread. McKid is already gone to show his immaturity and lack of situational awareness with another team. The offense is already going to be different with his departure and a new coordinator.

I knew I won without you admitting it.
I dismissed stats that are not relevant. Are you seriously saying that if you see something happen you wait for a stat to tell you if it really did?

You abusive comments toward McDaniels are funny, since you are trying to deny you have an agenda.

I guess we are better off without the guy who got the best offensive results in the history of the franchsie as OC, huh? Damn him for that 29-6 record.

 

[DaBruinz]

*DaBruinz impersonating Maverick4 with the voice of Kathy Bates from The Waterboy* McDaniels is da Devil.

 

[maverick4]

Reiss: "The Patriots are a spread-the-field offense, as they ran 62 percent of their 2008 snaps with three- or four-receiver packages, which highlights the importance of having a starting-caliber player(s) behind the top two receivers."

Patriots WR snapshot - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

Positional grouping wrap - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

 

[maverick4]

I dismissed stats that are not relevant. Are you seriously saying that if you see something happen you wait for a stat to tell you if it really did?.

What is even funnier is that even in the face of a specific stat counting simply hits on QB's (or any other stat against your worldview), you REFUSE to believe them because your lying eyes tell you differently. It's okay, everybody is wrong now and then, no need to get embarrassed and defensive that someone else here dug up a false claim you made about how Brady barely gets hit, and that you now have your foot in your mouth.

 

[Rob0729]

What is even funnier is that even in the face of a specific stat counting simply hits on QB's (or any other stat against your worldview), you REFUSE to believe them because your lying eyes tell you differently. It's okay, everybody is wrong now and then, no need to get embarrassed and defensive that someone else here dug up a false claim you made about how Brady barely gets hit, and that you now have your foot in your mouth.

Maybe because the stat doesn't count sacks and if you count sacks and hits, his numbers can't be any different than they were under Weis based on the differential of sacks between years AND if you combine sacks and hits Brady probably falls into the middle of the pack for QBs over the 2006 and 2007 since his sack total was near the bottom.

I still can't believe this thread is still alive especially since it was based on an article that cherry picked stats with no context to what the stat really means. Hits are such an ambiguous stat which is why the league does not keep an official talley.

 

[Ring 6]

What is even funnier is that even in the face of a specific stat counting simply hits on QB's (or any other stat against your worldview), you REFUSE to believe them because your lying eyes tell you differently. It's okay, everybody is wrong now and then, no need to get embarrassed and defensive that someone else here dug up a false claim you made about how Brady barely gets hit, and that you now have your foot in your mouth.

Please read slowly so you can understand.
The stat you are using does not mean what you are saying it does.
QBs are hit when they are sacked. That is not included here. QBs are hit AFTER they release the ball, it is not clear whether or not that is included here.
You are trying to portray this as the likelihood of our offensive philosophy cuasing injury ot Tom Brady.
For that to be concluded, you would have to include all manners of hits that could result in injury, compare to other teams and style of offense, and then compare to the Patriots in the earlier Brady years when they ran a different style of offense.
Actually, you also need to get a definition of what constitutes a hit during the throw that the stats you are basing everything on were compiled with respect to. It a slap on the left arm while throwing a hit, does he need to be knocked to the ground, etc?
You are insulting people for nt accepting your conclusion of data that you have not even explained.

 

[Dragda]

all petty bickering aside, Tom Brady takes a pounding. He takes it well with a couple of exceptions. He doesn't take sacks which is due to his amazing skill. He sacrifices himself to complete a pass very frequently. I don't pay much attention to stats, but I am well aware of Tom getting knocked on his ***** quite a lot. How that ranks with other players isn't very relevant. I think we could do a better job protecting Brady. But it's not like they aren't decent in pass protection.

 

[Deus Irae]

What is even funnier is that even in the face of a specific stat counting simply hits on QB's (or any other stat against your worldview), you REFUSE to believe them because your lying eyes tell you differently. It's okay, everybody is wrong now and then, no need to get embarrassed and defensive that someone else here dug up a false claim you made about how Brady barely gets hit, and that you now have your foot in your mouth.

Still clowning yourself I see...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Still clowning yourself I see...

 

[unoriginal]

In Super Bowl 42, Josh McDaniels hardly used 2 TE formations which led to 5 Brady sacks, many dropbacks, and many incompletions.

They didn't use 2 TE formations because they were ineffective. Much of that was because Kyle Brady was at the end of his rope. He got maybe 4 snaps and he ended up on the ground twice.

Anyways most of the pressure was coming up the middle, and Watson was never really that great at the wham block.

 

[BradyManny]

They didn't use 2 TE formations because they were ineffective. Much of that was because Kyle Brady was at the end of his rope. He got maybe 4 snaps and he ended up on the ground twice.

Anyways most of the pressure was coming up the middle, and Watson was never really that great at the wham block.

I've been watching the 3 games to Glory DVDs recently, and was reminded just how willing Weiss was to move Brady out of the pocket to avoid the rush in those SB games, especially vs. Carolina. The only time in SB 42 I can remember Brady rolling out was on the last desperation drive, the 3rd down HailMary bomb to Moss that was about half an inch from being completed [still kills me]. It's possible that Brady's injury was worse than he let on, and the team wasn't comfortable rolling him out and moving the pocket. It's hard to believe the coaching staff would have a collective brain fart.

 

[maverick4]

QBs are hit when they are sacked. That is not included here. QBs are hit AFTER they release the ball, it is not clear whether or not that is included here.

The counting methodology is explained, if you bothered to read it. A 'hit' isn't just counting sack numbers. Keep thinking that your eyes are more accurate than reality.

 

[maverick4]

all petty bickering aside, Tom Brady takes a pounding. He takes it well with a couple of exceptions. He doesn't take sacks which is due to his amazing skill. He sacrifices himself to complete a pass very frequently. I don't pay much attention to stats, but I am well aware of Tom getting knocked on his ***** quite a lot. How that ranks with other players isn't very relevant. I think we could do a better job protecting Brady. But it's not like they aren't decent in pass protection.

Careful, we have a very proud poster here who will not only disagree with this, but continue to refute this simply because 'he doesn't see it', and that you must simply be wrong.

Meanwhile, it's clear to everyone else that the pass-happy offense we've had from 2006-08 basically required our fearless QB to regularly take a ferocious beating and expect to bounce right up every time.

 

[unoriginal]

I've been watching the 3 games to Glory DVDs recently, and was reminded just how willing Weiss was to move Brady out of the pocket to avoid the rush in those SB games, especially vs. Carolina. The only time in SB 42 I can remember Brady rolling out was on the last desperation drive, the 3rd down HailMary bomb to Moss that was about half an inch from being completed [still kills me]. It's possible that Brady's injury was worse than he let on, and the team wasn't comfortable rolling him out and moving the pocket. It's hard to believe the coaching staff would have a collective brain fart.

To roll out consistently you usually need to keep the tight ends in to lengthen the line, run your offense from under center and have a running game to play fake off of.

I remember the Pats tried a bunch of rollouts against the Ravens in order to get away from Ngata, but all they ended up doing was walking Brady into pressure from Pryce and Suggs et al, because the way the defense is set up against the spread they have much better angles on the QB outside of the pocket.

I covered some of that in my old breakdown thread.

 

[Ring 6]

The counting methodology is explained, if you bothered to read it. A 'hit' isn't just counting sack numbers. Keep thinking that your eyes are more accurate than reality.

No it is not explained fully. It says HIT WHILE THROWING. It does not define what 'hit' means. Is that tackled, brought to the ground, hit with a shoulder, or simply any contact including a pat on the shoulder by an engaged pass rusher being driven past the QB.

We know that it DOES NOT include hit AFTER the throw, or being sacked, nor being hit PRIOR to throwing, but escaping.
This stat is the most narrow definition of hit available, hit WHILE THROWING.

If you wish to have ANY credibility at all here, you need to admit that the title that Brady was the most hit QB in the NFL is anywhere from misleading to inaccurate to unproven.

Until you can add sacks, and other hits not included you are arguing based on a stat that doesnt show what you are arguing.

It is akin to arguing that if Randy Moss had the most pass interference calls against him he is the most hit WR in the league. Get it, hit WHILE catching doesnt answer the question.

For some reason you seem to want to take a stat that doesnt show what you say it shows and make me out to be wrong to not accept that it means what it doesnt mean. Truly bizzare.

Did you notice by the way, that contrary to your argument in 2007 Brady was 'hit' less than in 2006 when the Patriots spread the field and threw the ball aggressively less often?
Its in the article you have chosen as your Bible.

 

[Ring 6]

Careful, we have a very proud poster here who will not only disagree with this, but continue to refute this simply because 'he doesn't see it', and that you must simply be wrong.

Meanwhile, it's clear to everyone else that the pass-happy offense we've had from 2006-08 basically required our fearless QB to regularly take a ferocious beating and expect to bounce right up every time.

So let me get this straight. Anyone who disagrees with you gets insulted, right.
I see almost everyone posting here disagreeing with you and you conclude that its clear to everyone else you are right?
You show an article that lists one means of the QB being hit, and refuse to acknowledge that it does not tell the whole story that you portray it to.

And I'm the one not being objective, right?

Just to set it straight. I say Brady has not endure a 'beating' compared to other QBs. I say that I watch games and I do not see a significant amount of dangerous hits, especially compared to what other QBs recieve. You get a stat that doesnt define the severity of the hit, and limits it only to the # of times being hit while throwing; it adds up to less than 3 times a game, and you see that as proof he is taking a beating.
Further, you blame it on the change in offensive philosophy but do not provide similar numbers for other seasons.

You are relying on your own flawed opinion and using a barely related stat to hide behind that it is your unsupported opinion.

 

[maverick4]

It does not define what 'hit' means. Is that tackled, brought to the ground, hit with a shoulder, or simply any contact including a pat on the shoulder by an engaged pass rusher being driven past the QB.

I agree ESPN's 'hit' definition could be improved, but spending so much time on your part tearing apart the definition doesn't really prove the point you're trying to make, that Brady was barely hit or took damage that much relative to other QB's, simply because your eyes tell you so. It's unfortunate ESPN didn't count even further back to earlier years, but working with some figures is better than backing up assertions with nothing other than self proclaimed eye observation/expertise.

Others here going back to 2006 have noted that Brady seemed to be taking a beating (hits/slams into the ground) more than he did under Weiss. Do you remember that 2005 or 2006 Denver playoff game? I remember threads about it. Brady almost got killed in that one, and it's been like that the past few years, not just that game.

Forget the coordinator talk. There are two points, and only two, I'm trying to make in this thread: first, that Brady has been hit (into the ground) a lot the past four years, and that secondly, it is related to the spread pass-heavy attack/formations we use. Did you see that Reiss link I posted about just how much we used 4 and 3 WR sets? We rely on Brady's vision and willingness to take a pounding in order to hit the open man, even if it means waiting for the play to develop.

 

[maverick4]

I remember the Pats tried a bunch of rollouts against the Ravens in order to get away from Ngata, but all they ended up doing was walking Brady into pressure from Pryce and Suggs et al, because the way the defense is set up against the spread they have much better angles on the QB outside of the pocket.

I covered some of that in my old breakdown thread.

The thing is we didn't have enough protection on these roll-outs. We had Brady rolling out with 3 or 4 receivers out there and not much back there to create a seal for Brady.

 

[maverick4]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Football Outsiders Almanac 2009

["The Pats had just half a quarter of Tom Brady last year, but they managed to put together the NFL’s best offense, based on DVOA [Defense-Adjusted Value over Average], in the second half of the 2008 season. As you know, they did this with a guy in Matt Cassel who had never started a college game. How is this possible? For the Pats in the recent past, it’s been all about the shotgun formation. In 2007, New England became the first NFL team to run the shotgun formation on more than 50 percent of their plays, and that trend continued in 2008. Our data shows that teams are more effective and efficient in the shotgun – over the last two years, teams have averaged 5.9 yards per play from the shotgun, and 5.1 under center. The differences between New England’s DVOA under shotgun and not were pretty significant. Cassel threw 433 passes out of the shotgun and amassed a DYAR [Defense-Adjusted Yards over Replacement] of 531, and a DVOA of 7.8%. Under center, he threw 124 passes for a DYAR of 124 and a DVOA of 2.2%. Should Matt Gutierrez or Kevin O’Connell have to take the reins for any length of time this season, they may be in a situation like Denver used to have with running backs – it’s just that Brady is Terrell Davis, and the other guys are Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson."]