Is Cassel progressing in intangible ways

[ctpatsfan77]

Funny..... Jaws could see the improvement. Maybe you need to borrow his glasses?

Yeah. As one example, on the Welker pass where he juked three defenders simultaneously, the analysts saw that Cassel immediately recognized Welker was wide open* and got the ball out to him.

*Yeah, I know this is Welker on most plays, but this was definitely an example of coverage FAIL.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Funny..... Jaws could see the improvement. Maybe you need to borrow his glasses?

Well, I asked for specifics and named about 10 different areas that people could point to (would have named more if I could have thought of any more). So far (and I know my post hasn't been up all that long yet), no one has wanted to talk specifics. That's OK, but I think it reinforces the point that if you can't point to specific improvements, then there's not much weight behind a claim of general "improvement".

I could be wrong; I've certainly been wrong before. Matt Cassel looked pretty bad in some of the pre-season games and he's not looking nearly as bad right now. That's improvement. The specific type of improvement that I've seen there includes

- better receivers (more on the same page so that the passes aren't as likely to be intercepted)
- less risky throws (was taking more chances in pre-season)
- shorter passes in general (related to the previous point)
- willingness to hold onto the ball instead of risking a pass/interception

This is improvement, no doubt. However, it's not the kind of improvement that leads to a QB winning the game; it's what will keep the QB from losing the game. If this is what others are calling improvement, then we're on the same page. If, however, others are seeing improvement in the sense that Matt looks more capable of leading the team on game winning drives, throwing decisive intermediate and long passes with a fair degree of accuracy and success, or the quick decision making that either avoids loss of yardage due to sacks or makes a small gain out of a potential loss, then I've somehow overlooked those abililties. I look forward to seeing these kinds of improvements which will show me that Matt Cassel is a QB worthy of starting games in the NFL, not just a backup who's left holding the sack because there's no one better to take over.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, I asked for specifics and named about 10 different areas that people could point to (would have named more if I could have thought of any more). So far (and I know my post hasn't been up all that long yet), no one has wanted to talk specifics. That's OK, but I think it reinforces the point that if you can't point to specific improvements, then there's not much weight behind a claim of general "improvement".

I could be wrong; I've certainly been wrong before. Matt Cassel looked pretty bad in some of the pre-season games and he's not looking nearly as bad right now. That's improvement. The specific type of improvement that I've seen there includes

- better receivers (more on the same page so that the passes aren't as likely to be intercepted)
- less risky throws (was taking more chances in pre-season)
- shorter passes in general (related to the previous point)
- willingness to hold onto the ball instead of risking a pass/interception

This is improvement, no doubt. However, it's not the kind of improvement that leads to a QB winning the game; it's what will keep the QB from losing the game. If this is what others are calling improvement, then we're on the same page. If, however, others are seeing improvement in the sense that Matt looks more capable of leading the team on game winning drives, throwing decisive intermediate and long passes with a fair degree of accuracy and success, or the quick decision making that either avoids loss of yardage due to sacks or makes a small gain out of a potential loss, then I've somehow overlooked those abililties. I look forward to seeing these kinds of improvements which will show me that Matt Cassel is a QB worthy of starting games in the NFL, not just a backup who's left holding the sack because there's no one better to take over.

I pointed to Jaws and the follow up gave an example of something specific Jaws said. The rest is not worth arguing, since only the willfully blind would make the claim that they haven't seen improvement. Although at least you've conceded that point and are now just moving the goalposts.

 

[abejarano12]

That would be increadible if that pans out, I mean, Bledsoe had his pocket issues but he could throw it into any spot (and most times relied on his arm too much instead of his head). I personally don't think he has a higher ceiling than Bledsoe had but if he can, then some team will have a great QB someday. As much as Bledsoe get's bashed, he carried the team with his arm at times. JMHO.

I think that Matt gets better everyday and every game. He learning to be quicker with his reads and getting rid of the ball quicker. He still needs to get better but as long as he does thing that help the team win games and not lose them he will be just fine.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't know; we'll have to wait for him to go to another team.

Actually, the better response is, "I know Tom Brady and Matt Cassel is no Tom Brady."

So I've heard; I just haven't seen. I'll give him credit for this - he's not turning the ball over. I agree that this is improvement. Beyond that, exactly what part of his game is "progressing"? Is he:

- make better line adjustments?
- reading the defense pre-snap better?
- making better and more decisive decisions after the snap?
- reading the defense better post-snap?
- better at avoiding the sack?
- making better intermediate throws?
- making better long throws?
- throwing the ball away better?
- running the ball better when the play has broken down?

Matt Cassel has always hit the short throws pretty well; not too much room for improvement there.

Seriously, I hear people say that he's improving. What I see is that the play calling is changing to do what he can already do (throw the short passes), not that Cassel is getting better at being a more well-rounded QB.

Don't get me wrong; improvement at not turning the ball over is very important in this offense and on this team. But that's about the only area I can honestly credit him with noticable improvement at this point.

Guys like JAWS see things you can't - almost imperceptible changes and improvements like Bill sees on coaches tape. To deny that would be fanboy hubris... The video generation has been conditioned for instant gratification - that's fantasy. Even great QB's don't emerge as finished products overnight.

As to your list:

- make better line adjustments? - who says he isn't, at least 4 of the sacks last week were the direct result of guys whiffing on their assignments...not all QB's call protections, let alone inexperienced ones - a lot of that is on Koppen as the center on a veteran line. I guess you're one of those Tommy had a bad day setting protections in the Superbowl guys...

- reading the defense pre-snap better? his completion % says he reads fine, he is just not yet ready to throw to spots in anticipation of a receiver and the coaches likely have told him not to make tight throws or throws he's uncomfortable with because those tend to result in bad things happening.

- making better and more decisive decisions after the snap? he has but he isn't making every decsion decisively and that won't happen for years if ever. What he is deciding to do first and foremost is no harm, and that is exactly what his coaches want him to do. After the bad pass to Faulk and the ruling overturning the call on the field, he made the same throw to Faulk correctly followed by a 6 yd. throw to Welker for the TD.

- reading the defense better post-snap? see above...Brady didn't begin to master this until his second and third season and it only worked when he and his receivers and the coaching staff were on the exact same page...it's never worked consistently even for Tom absent that even with some of the present options (Watson for example).

- better at avoiding the sack? - the vast majority of his remain tough to avoid. Scrambling comes with it's own set of risks...Gresh broke down 3 of last week's sacks on NE Tailgate last night and one of them was Morris clearly whiffing on his assignment, the second was Evans failing to chip for the RG on his way through the line which resulted in the RG getting beat and the third was on a designed rollout where the TE struggled to seperate while a free defender was closing fast because they'd read the play. On that one he probably could have thrown it away, but he'd also have in the process exposed himself to a lot nastier hit.

- making better intermediate throws? See Moss TD pass take 2, he is.

- making better long throws? he hasn't had much opportunity to for fairly obvious reasons

- throwing the ball away better? it's a balance he says they are working on but the kinds of sacks he's been taking leave little opportunity to throw it away safely (tips and strips in a crowd) and he's not losing the ball or much yardage on his sacks because he's not getting sacked in mid windup rather he is taking the sack.

- running the ball better when the play has broken down? He's run quite well and more of late and he just needs to be sure to slide...too much running in tight quarters and you're a strip target not to mention a QB injury waiting to happen.

He has struggled the most in the red zone but that is classic inexperience. Windows and coverages tighten dramatically on the shorter field. But he led 3 TD scoring drives inside the red zone in week 6 and threw for 2 TD's in red zone drives, so I think it's fair to say that's an improvement. What is unfair is when his detractors keep moving the goal posts (the it was only argument) when in fact all any QB can do is play the schedule and the opponent as presented.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'd have to think he's being drilled constantly on knowing when to get rid of the ball - aside from that improved play of the OL is going to make him look better as well.

I think Cassell has always had an ability to make deeper throws - he just wasn't getting the protection.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I pointed to Jaws and the follow up gave an example of something specific Jaws said. The rest is not worth arguing, since only the willfully blind would make the claim that they haven't seen improvement. Although at least you've conceded that point and are now just moving the goalposts.

Thanks for pointing out Jaws comment; it is certainly relevant. I must have missed the example of something specific that Jaws said; I didn't find it even when looking back over this thread.

I guess we'll just have to disagree if I'm "willfully blind" or not.

I guess I didn't communicate very clearly if you think I've moved the goalposts. All along I've said that Cassel has done a very good job of not turning over the ball. Clearly, that is a big improvement from pre-season and I have mentioned that several times (although certainly not every post). But the improvements I've not seen have been the positive steps forward, not the absence of negative steps back. Ultimately, it sounds like this discussion in this thread has pretty much run its course and there's no real need to degenerate into the next step of name calling and other miscellaneous insults.

 

[slash83]

Cassel's improving week by week which is to be expected, he just holds onto the ball too long and doesnt have the greatest feild vision, again those things are expected the guys hardly ever played in the NFL or college for that matter.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Guys like JAWS see things you can't - almost imperceptible changes and improvements like Bill sees on coaches tape.

I love Jaws and freely acknowledge that he is 100 times better than me in evaluating QBs. That doesn't mean that I (or you) don't have opinions that sometimes differ from him.

As to your list:

- make better line adjustments? - who says he isn't, at least 4 of the sacks last week were the direct result of guys whiffing on their assignments...

I would suggest that there is no evidence that calling line assignments (whoever is responsible for calling them) has improved since the beginning of the year.

- reading the defense pre-snap better? his completion % says he reads fine, he is just not yet ready to throw to spots in anticipation of a receiver and the coaches likely have told him not to make tight throws or throws he's uncomfortable with because those tend to result in bad things happening.

I would suggest that the length of Cassel's passes indicate next to nothing about reading defenses since so many of his passes are so short or even behind the line of scrimmage. I did see a breakdown of a play a few weeks ago (I forget if it was Jaws who was breaking it down) that showed Cassel missing what should have been the clear read (based on which way 1 defensive player moved) and therefore not hitting the wide open receiver. Perhaps that one negative play has over-influenced my thinking.

- making better and more decisive decisions after the snap? he has but he isn't making every decision decisively and that won't happen for years if ever. What he is deciding to do first and foremost is no harm, and that is exactly what his coaches want him to do. After the bad pass to Faulk and the ruling overturning the call on the field, he made the same throw to Faulk correctly followed by a 6 yd. throw to Welker for the TD.

I certainly agree that his goal is to do no harm. I'd also say that this is exactly the goal that we should all have for Cassel most of the time as this team should be good enough to win without expecting too much from Matt. I don't see the overall improvement in this area that you evidently do.

- reading the defense better post-snap? see above...Brady didn't begin to master this until his second and third season...

Sounds like we're agreed that Cassel hasn't really improved noticeably in this area and that it is too early to expect much improvement.

- better at avoiding the sack? - the vast majority of his remain tough to avoid...[some specific examples that I can agree with]

I'll disagree with that. Certainly some can't be avoided, but many have noted that he holds the ball too long and that has produced sacks that should be avoided. If anything, I'd say he's worse at avoiding the sack - with a corresponding betterment in avoiding the turnover. In our last game against Denver, sacks didn't hurt us nearly as much as they usually do partially because Denver committed so many stupid penalties to help make up for the sacks. In future games, I expect sacks to be more of a negative.

- making better intermediate throws? See Moss TD pass take 2, he is.

That was a good throw. I'd like to see more of them on a consistent basis before I credit him with an improvement there.

- making better long throws? he hasn't had much opportunity to for fairly obvious reasons

Agreed to some extent. When he has had long throws, he's been inconsistent. Two long throws to Moss right on the mark; another 3 that I can think of that were extremely poor. Certainly he's been under a lot of pressure to have that many opportunities.

- throwing the ball away better? it's a balance he says they are working on but the kinds of sacks he's been taking leave little opportunity to throw it away safely (tips and strips in a crowd) and he's not losing the ball or much yardage on his sacks because he's not getting sacked in mid windup rather he is taking the sack.

I think (hope) we can agree that this is an area that certainly needs some improvement.

- running the ball better when the play has broken down? He's run quite well and more of late and he just needs to be sure to slide...too much running in tight quarters and you're a strip target not to mention a QB injury waiting to happen.

I don't have much problem with his running now nor have I had an issue with it in the past.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

 

[TimU]

Cassell has a QB rating of 86 which is (a) not bad and (b) equal to Brady's in Brady's first year as starter. Matt's weakness so far is that he doesn't complete the deep ball often (and neither did Brady his first year). His strength is that he hasn't turned it over, and that's big. He is a game manager.

The formula we saw Monday - defense plays well and gets turnovers, offense stays out of trouble and converts on the turnovers - hey, we won 3 super bowls with that plan!

 

[spacecrime]

I guess we'll just have to disagree if I'm "willfully blind" or not.

the improvements I've not seen have been the positive steps forward, not the absence of negative steps back.

Wow. If you saw no steps forward in Cassel over the last five weeks and you are not willfully blind, then you probably became a fan AFTER his preseason games.

If the preseason and Cassel's first couple of games, he was quick to run with the ball. THis was true of Gute and OC, also. It is a rookie way of dealing with not being able to process information fast enough to understand what is going on downfield.

Later he still held the ball too long, but looked to throw rather than run. This is progress.

Against Denver...well, if you watched that game and don't think his getting rig of the ball was light years ahead of the other games, then if you aren't willfully blind, you are simply closed-minded about him. "He isn't Brady and therefore cannot be any good."

But you really should watch the games. If you compare all the QBs who will start this Sunday, Cassel will be in the middle of the pack. THat wasn't true four-five weeks ago.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Wow. If you saw no steps forward in Cassel over the last five weeks and you are not willfully blind, then you probably became a fan AFTER his preseason games.

I'm still not a fan of Cassel. I was cautiously optimistic for 3 years and rather negative after this past pre-season. So far, Cassel has done a very good job of not losing games which I freely admit is a significant improvement over preseason. Again, the improvement I'm referring to is not the absence of negative plays, it is the addition of positive plays. It's obvious that I haven't expressed that very well since you're the second person to not understand that.

If the preseason and Cassel's first couple of games, he was quick to run with the ball. THis was true of Gute and OC, also. It is a rookie way of dealing with not being able to process information fast enough to understand what is going on downfield.

Later he still held the ball too long, but looked to throw rather than run. This is progress.

Good point.

Against Denver...well, if you watched that game and don't think his getting rig of the ball was light years ahead of the other games, then if you aren't willfully blind, you are simply closed-minded about him.

I think that this was primarily because the Patriots changed their game calling to short passes that called for him to get rid of the ball quickly. I applaud the coaching staff for this. I don't credit Cassel with significant improvement in this area, particularly in a game where he got sacked so much.

"He isn't Brady and therefore cannot be any good."

Who is this Brady guy and why are you comparing him to Cassel? Don't change the subject.

But you really should watch the games. If you compare all the QBs who will start this Sunday, Cassel will be in the middle of the pack. THat wasn't true four-five weeks ago.

I certainly agree that there are worse QBs in the NFL (see Minnesota). And avoiding turnovers will bump you up towards the middle of the pack pretty quickly. As Jaws pointed out a couple weeks ago, the Patriots were asking Matt Cassel to run the offense just like his predecessor did - and it wasn't working out well because he didn't have the same skills. The changes I see aren't really in Matt Cassel, they are more in the play calling which spend more time maximizing Matt Cassel's strengths and avoiding some of his weaknesses. I give credit to the coaching staff, not the QB, for that. You're opinions may (will) differ.

 

[N.Eman]

Sometimes i feel cassel pocket presence improves in a weird way by him being sacked. It might sound off but the other traits he has checked. To avoid more rants and comparisons, I am sure he will get better as pass rush would be defense's moto later in the year and open our running game and improve our play action. We'll be fine!