The Aftermath of this For Mangini....

[Gunnails]

No one's arguing that. But there is protocol, and once the decision has been made for EM to move on, he doesn't get to troll around Gillette anymore. That's common practice. You people are delusional thinking this is some harsh practice only the Patriots engage in.

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Aren't you the one who said if I want to discuss the Patriots that you would be happy with that.
But all you do is just spin every post of mine that you comment on, have you read this thread?

For the record I never said anything about BB being bad or unreasonable in regards to any thing between him and EM.

The only thing I have ever said about BB is that he was a moron to get caught cheating, other then that I can't think of an issue that I have with BB.

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Gunnails]

The only people that Belichick took was Weis who probably would have been fired anyway and Mangini who followed Belichick his entire career. I doubt Parcells and Groh wanted a guy who was at the time believed to be a Belichick disciple. All of the other coaches came from elsewhere or were already with the Pats.

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My only point was to try to establish a double standard that some Pats fans may have in regards to EM pilfering the Pats staff when he left the Pats

I am not trying to say that EM is better or worse then BB.

 

[Rob0729]

No he wasn't. He was among the Jets front office staff when Belichick came back here as HC. I also remember that one of the Jets prominent scouts, Lionel Vital, came here just weeks after Pioli did.



Seely was on Carroll's 1999 Pats staff. Before that, yes, he was with Carolina.

Sorry, you are right on Pioli. I was looking at false information. Pioli came to the Patriots a month after Belichick was hired by the Pats. And you are right about Seely. Damn Wikipedia.

 

[Rob0729]

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My only point was to try to establish a double standard that some Pats fans may have in regards to EM pilfering the Pats staff when he left the Pats

I am not trying to say that EM is better or worse then BB.

There is a difference. Mangini tried to pilfer the Pats' staff on the way home from the AFC Championship game. I wouldn't have a problem with him taking some of the Pats staff, but recruiting them on the plane ride home from a playoff loss and before he even had the job. He was trying to rob the Patriots' staff while being an employee of the Patriots. That is a big deal.

 

[GoWhalers]

This thread has been an interesting read -- much thanks go to Gunnails for his grounded rebuttals.

One thing I wonder: Are we seeing a "changing of the guard" in NFL coaching? With NFL coaches getting younger and younger every year, is there sort of a disregard for the "old way of doing things"?

First it was Jon Gruden, then Mangini was made HC at a surprisingly young age, now you have Lane Kiffin. Brad Childress of the Vikings is 51, but has only been significantly active in the NFL since 1999 (Belichick, by comparison, has been around since 1976). Even Roger Goodell is relatively young for his position.

This is just a theory -- take it for what it is -- but possibly there's something of a revolution taking place in the NFL? Younger people, less influenced by many years in the NFL, are coming in and throwing out the "unwritten rulebook". Some examples: Gruden uses his inside knowledge from his time with the Raiders to embarass them in the Super Bowl. Childress divulges private conversations with BB on the radio. Mangini possibly tampers with Branch and now Cameragate. Goodell is taking swift action on *everything*, as opposed to the more lax -- but also more experienced/savvy -- approach of his predecessor.

Hollywood went through much of the same thing in the '70's. All of the "good old boy" studio directors and producers were overthrown by a bunch of young upstarts (think: Francis Coppolla, Martin Scorcese, William Friedkin, Peter Bogdanovich, Michael Cimino, etc.) who gave the "old way of doing things" the proverbial finger. Their fresh ideas and new approaches to doing things brought them much initial success and acclaim. However, as they got older, the "studio system" ended up bringing each one of them down a peg (or more). Guys like Coppolla and Friedkin were destroyed, whereas Scorcese is more of a niche director. Other directors who were happy to work within the system (i.e. Steven Spielberg) ultimately ended up having the most success.

[Note: See Peter Biskind's "Easy Riders and Raging Bulls" for more on the Hollywood stories -- it's a good read!]

Belichick may just be one of the last "old system" coaches in a rapidly-changing NFL. As his "old system" allies drop off (like Parcells), he starts to find himself the odd man out.

 

[ClevTrev]

One thing I wonder: Are we seeing a "changing of the guard" in NFL coaching? With NFL coaches getting younger and younger every year, is there sort of a disregard for the "old way of doing things"?

First it was Jon Gruden, then Mangini was made HC at a surprisingly young age, now you have Lane Kiffin. Brad Childress of the Vikings is 51, but has only been significantly active in the NFL since 1999 (Belichick, by comparison, has been around since 1976). Even Roger Goodell is relatively young for his position.

This is just a theory -- take it for what it is -- but possibly there's something of a revolution taking place in the NFL? Younger people, less influenced by many years in the NFL, are coming in and throwing out the "unwritten rulebook". Some examples: Gruden uses his inside knowledge from his time with the Raiders to embarass them in the Super Bowl. Childress divulges private conversations with BB on the radio. Mangini possibly tampers with Branch and now Cameragate. Goodell is taking swift action on *everything*, as opposed to the more lax -- but also more experienced/savvy -- approach of his predecessor.

Belichick may just be one of the last "old system" coaches in a rapidly-changing NFL. As his "old system" allies drop off (like Parcells), he starts to find himself the odd man out.

Interesting theory. Your perceived revolution, I believe, is simply the natural progression that occurs over time. As in any company, as people become experienced and move on, others come in to take their places. However, to call Belichick "old system" is a misnomer, since the term implies he's using antiquated formations and game strategy. While I don't think that's what you mean, don't forget for a minute that BB has many proteges in the league, and Mangini is but one. Belichicks approach to game strategy is studied and widely emulated, as his methods are as progressive as any today.

This has nothing to do with the fact that over time, the average age of the head coaching population stays the same, as head coaches are replaced. At the end of the day due to the pressure to win that comes with this job, they're all going to take every opportunity to gain an advantage against their opponents, either within the rules or not.

 

[GoWhalers]

Interesting theory. Your perceived revolution, I believe, is simply the natural progression that occurs over time. As in any company, as people become experienced and move on, others come in to take their places. However, to call Belichick "old system" is a misnomer, since the term implies he's using antiquated formations and game strategy. While I don't think that's what you mean, don't forget for a minute that BB has many proteges in the league, and Mangini is but one. Belichicks approach to game strategy is studied and widely emulated, as his methods are as progressive as any today.

This has nothing to do with the fact that over time, the average age of the head coaching population stays the same, as head coaches are replaced. At the end of the day due to the pressure to win that comes with this job, they're all going to take every opportunity to gain an advantage against their opponents, either within the rules or not.

Thanks for the feedback! Please don't misunderstand me -- my characterization of Belichick as an "old system" guy is not referring to his innovations or strategies, I'm only referring to the length of his tenure in the NFL, and any "generally accepted way of doing things" that comes with that.

I take issue with one point: is the average age of the head coach staying the same? I'd argue that it's not. With Gruden/Mangini/Kiffin/Tomlin coming in and Parcells/Cowher coming out, I think that the average age has been getting younger. With youth often comes a disregard for history, so perhaps the "new guard" doesn't care about how things have been done in past, they're going to do it their way. And they may be becoming the majority!

 

[ClevTrev]

I take issue with one point: is the average age of the head coach staying the same? I'd argue that it's not. With Gruden/Mangini/Kiffin/Tomlin coming in and Parcells/Cowher coming out, I think that the average age has been getting younger. With youth often comes a disregard for history, so perhaps the "new guard" doesn't care about how things have been done in past, they're going to do it their way. And they may be becoming the majority!

Understood, yet my point is that it's the natural progression. When John Madden was named HC of Oakland, I believe he was the youngest head coach in NFL history at the time. He brought down the average age until he got older. The average age may move down or up slightly over time, and when there are those established in their positions (in other words, successful), the average age creeps up until some retire and younger HCs are hired. Over the past few years look at the retirements of Vermeil, Parcells, Cowher, and others who are older. This has been going on since the inception of the NFL.

Those established coaches who aren't about to leave include Fisher, Dungy, Billick, and others. The new guard still have to prove themselves. Our friend Mangini only has one year under his belt. We'll see how that works out, but I wouldn't call this a revolution.

 

[Gunnails]

Snitches

Nobody likes a snitch.

But it should also be noted that sometimes it takes courage to do the right thing.

Going against the status quo because it is the right thing is not always and easy thing.

Mangini as far as I know did nothing wrong, in fact he simply did his job. IE look out for your team, do not allow others an unfair advantage.

I do not see how Mangini alerting the NFL about rule violations in his house (Giants stadium, lol) is in any way wrong. He did what he felt is best for his organization.

What EM did was courageous, knowing this would not put this in a good light with most.

 

[PatsRI]

If the Pats have been doing this for years shouldn't Mangini be thanking BB for being successful which helped him get the job in the first place?

 

[CrazyDave]

As far as what would we do if someone came into our house and did the same thing?
How about changing the signals?
Rather than cry about it, why not use it to your advantage?
They would think you were blitzing from the left, but you'd be coming from the right etc.

 

[Heck67]

Snitches

Nobody likes a snitch.

But it should also be noted that sometimes it takes courage to do the right thing.

Going against the status quo because it is the right thing is not always and easy thing.

Mangini as far as I know did nothing wrong, in fact he simply did his job. IE look out for your team, do not allow others an unfair advantage.

I do not see how Mangini alerting the NFL about rule violations in his house (Giants stadium, lol) is in any way wrong. He did what he felt is best for his organization.

What EM did was courageous, knowing this would not put this in a good light with most.

How is it the "right thing" when he himself is doing it??? please its just sour grapes for getting your ass handed to you

 

[Gunnails]

How is it the "right thing" when he himself is doing it??? please its just sour grapes for getting your ass handed to you

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Stop making things up, there is absolutely no proof or presedent, to what you are suggesting. NONE

But you are right about one thing, I am not happy at all about getting completely blown out in Giants stadium, sucks to lose, sucks more to get blown out, sucks even more that we lose Chad posibly due to cheating by the Pats.

 

[BigMike]

As far as what would we do if someone came into our house and did the same thing?
How about changing the signals?
Rather than cry about it, why not use it to your advantage?
They would think you were blitzing from the left, but you'd be coming from the right etc.

THEY DID! THATS WHY DON DAVIS STOOD IN FRONT OF DEAN PEES ALL LAST SEASON< TO BLOCK OTHER TEAMS FROM FILMING HIS SIGNALS!!!!!

 

[pats-blue]

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Stop making things up, there is absolutely no proof or presedent, to what you are suggesting. NONE

But you are right about one thing, I am not happy at all about getting completely blown out in Giants stadium, sucks to lose, sucks more to get blown out, sucks even more that we lose Chad posibly due to cheating by the Pats.

You have made some good posts in this thread...BUT WTF???

Care to enlighten us how Chad was injured due to "cheating by the Pats"? That is about the most ******ed statement I have read regarding this whole incident...and there are some whoppers.

 

[SVN]

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All I am saying is that there seems to be misplaced anger towards Mangini and the Jets over the Pats being caught.

Just my oppinion.

that may be true. All iam saying is that this thing didnt started becos EM went to the jets. It really started during the branch negotiations.

 

[Gunnails]

You have made some good posts in this thread...BUT WTF???

Care to enlighten us how Chad was injured due to "cheating by the Pats"? That is about the most ******ed statement I have read regarding this whole incident...and there are some whoppers.

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OK I am reaching with this, and it is pure speculation.

There are reports/rumors that the Pats defense was miked so as to allow them to steal the Os audibles, if,if this was true, it follows that Chad may have been sacked because the Pats knew the Jets play call, thereby allowing them to sack Chad and cause the injury.

So OK I call bs on me, lol

And I am in no way implying that anyone on the Pats team would intentionaly try to injure a Jet, lay the wood on them sure, but not to intentionaly injure.

 

[ArmyPatsFan]

The conspiracy theory grows......

at least you called yourself out on it

 

[Gunnails]

that may be true. All iam saying is that this thing didnt started becos EM went to the jets. It really started during the branch negotiations.

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Fine we will call it good. Suffice to say all bridges are now burnt.

 

[vyrago]

Can anyone imagine BB doing this to Bill Parcells?