VrabelJr's Index of Forum Cliches

[VrabelJr]

The forum has become extremely repetitive on both sides of the debate. I'd like to save people risk of Reptitive Strain Injury and offer up an index of cliches with canned responses. Feel free to provide your own and I'll add them.

​

Cliches not rooted in logic or data:​

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
A refrain that loves to be used in any (all?) threads calling for BB's head. Users of this spew likely have Kyle Shanahan or Mike McDaniel in mind but unfortunately correlation does not equal causation. Kliff Kingsbury, Matt Nagy, Matt Rhule, Nathaniel Hackett, Adam Gase, Jay Gruden, Freddie Kitchens (45), Anthony Lynn (youngish, 48 when HC of LAC) have all been fired in recent seasons and qualify as young and innovative. If you want to remove young but keep innovative you could also include Frank Reich, who has now been fired twice in two years. Sean McVay won a Super Bowl but was that with the previous coach's roster? The last two seasons have been rocky.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
Steve and Brian currently coach the highest performing units of the team and there hasn't been any known criticism of their coaching by players. Everyone's other favorite head coach Kyle Shanahan grew up around the game of football. His first jobs were under his father's best friend Gary Kubiak andhe also spent a few seasons working with his dad Mike Shanahan. A certain other six time Super Bowl winning head coach also grew up around the game of football.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delivered in 4 years"
Did it though? We almost made the playoffs in 2020 and made them in 2021. If those seasons were drastically worse I'd suspect BB would have made different draft choices and FA signings. If there's any fault worth giving to BB it's that he didn't better identify the actual state of the team the past two seasons (that we know of). The drafting in 2022 does suggest he knew something, as he traded back for Cole Strange. Nobody picked between our original spot and Strange moves the needle.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I've never heard Rob Gronkowski described that way before. This cliche is too simple to be useful. BB has taken many players that didn't fit or did fit his supposed "mold" as both draftees and FAs. LeGarette Blount is another positive example. Aaron Hernandez and Dominique Easley also didn't fit the BB mold and look how those turned out.

Fair Criticisms:​

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"
This is fair but could also be lacking sample size. The miss on N'Keal Harry continues to sting hard but drafting a WR that high was a rare occasion. The only other WRs drafted in the first or second round are Aaron Dobson (miss), Chad Jackson (miss), and Deion Branch (hit). The jury is still out on Tyquan Thornton and I'm reluctant to write him off just yet with the other dysfunction going on. Do we fault BB for drafting other players instead of WRs at other times? Drafting for a perennial contender is a lot different than drafting for a rebuild.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"
It's a natural human tendency to try and dstill complex systems into something easy to understand but these generalizations are never accurate whether it's a football team or the stock market.

1) There's three phases to football and 53 roster spots. QB is very important but Brady didn't play defense or special teams.
2) Not just Brady left. Thuney, Cannon, Hightower, Gronk, Edelman, James White, and countless others left, retired, or regressed (McCourty, Slater)

 

[archstanton543]

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delieverd in 4 years"
Did it though?

It did.

"Do we fault BB for drafting other players instead of WRs at other times?"

Yes. We have for many years including during the Brady Era. I love how people keep brining up Branch as a hit. He was drafted in 2002. That was...hold on. Let's see here....carry the two...

21 years ago.

Yep, he's on BB's resume but it's so long ago that barely matters at this point. Like I don't list that I worked a Burger King as late teen on my resume since it's so long ago that it doesn't matter to my current job experience or performance.

 

[ahmed]

"Insert yawn emoji here"

 

[VrabelJr]

"Do we fault BB for drafting other players instead of WRs at other times?"

Yes. We have for many years including during the Brady Era. I love how people keep brining up Branch as a hit. He was drafted in 2002. That was...hold on. Let's see here....carry the two...

21 years ago.

Yep, he's on BB's resume but it's so long ago that barely matters at this point. Like I don't list that I worked a Burger King as late teen on my resume since it's so long ago that it doesn't matter to my current job experience or performance.

I thought about addressing that point, though in a much more nuanced way than you have. There is something to be examined about choosing college production (Thornton, Harry) over athleticism (Metcalf, Pickens). If we focus on the most recent four years, which WRs move the needle on this team? Everyone is focused on WRs, and this should absolutely be addressed in The Index(TM). How many wins does AJ Brown, DK Metcalf, or George Pickens get us this year? The egregious problems are at LT/RT and between the ears at QB. It seems to me that drafting Christian Darrisaw rather than Mac Jones fixes more than a WR.

It's fair to point out that teams like Green Bay and Pittsburgh seem to know something about drafting WRs. But at the same time, they have three Lombardi's in the time period we have six. It sure is hard building a team.

 

[borg]

2-10

 

[VrabelJr]

This is turning into an amazing honeypot for the perpetually disgruntled.

 

[Steve102]

This oughta go exceedingly well. Good luck @VrabelJr.

 

[archstanton543]

This is turning into an amazing honeypot for the perpetually disgruntled.

It always was. From NEM on down.

 

[Clonamery]

This is turning into an amazing honeypot for the perpetually disgruntled.

I have most of them blocked to save brain cells for alcohol.

 

[Nikolai]

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
Steve and Brian currently coach the highest performing units of the team and there hasn't been any known criticism of their coaching by players. Everyone's other favorite head coach Kyle Shanahan grew up around the game of football. His first jobs were under his father's best friend Gary Kubiak andhe also spent a few seasons working with his dad Mike Shanahan. A certain other six time Super Bowl winning head coach also grew up around the game of football.

I am anti-nepotism as a general rule, but I tend to agree with your first point here. BB's kids are indeed coaching some of the team's best units. I don't know how we keep them if we move on from BB, but I wouldn't mind keeping them if that's the most expedient way to keep the defense more or less consistent from this year to next year. It's an academic discussion if BB leaves after this year and it's not someone on the BB coaching tree taking over. There's no way I see us retaining them.

That's not to say we shouldn't get rid of BB, but as I've said elsewhere, there are second and third order effects to that kind of decision and they may not all be positive.

 

[sb1]

BB has not won a playoff game since Jordan Richards left. Just sayin

 

[Ross12]

I thought about addressing that point, though in a much more nuanced way than you have. There is something to be examined about choosing college production (Thornton, Harry) over athleticism (Metcalf, Pickens). If we focus on the most recent four years, which WRs move the needle on this team? Everyone is focused on WRs, and this should absolutely be addressed in The Index(TM). How many wins does AJ Brown, DK Metcalf, or George Pickens get us this year? The egregious problems are at LT/RT and between the ears at QB. It seems to me that drafting Christian Darrisaw rather than Mac Jones fixes more than a WR.

It's fair to point out that teams like Green Bay and Pittsburgh seem to know something about drafting WRs. But at the same time, they have three Lombardi's in the time period we have six. It sure is hard building a team.

Interesting thought process. Would have to agree that although the WRs on this roster are not stellar, issues at QB and OL are much bigger contributors to the present situation than WR.

 

[goheels22002]

The forum has become extremely repetitive on both sides of the debate. I'd like to save people risk of Reptitive Strain Injury and offer up an index of cliches with canned responses. Feel free to provide your own and I'll add them.

​

Cliches not rooted in logic or data:​

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
A refrain that loves to be used in any (all?) threads calling for BB's head. Users of this spew likely have Kyle Shanahan or Mike McDaniel in mind but unfortunately correlation does not equal causation. Kliff Kingsbury, Matt Nagy, Matt Rhule, Nathaniel Hackett, Adam Gase, Jay Gruden, Freddie Kitchens (45), Anthony Lynn (youngish, 48 when HC of LAC) have all been fired in recent seasons and qualify as young and innovative. If you want to remove young but keep innovative you could also include Frank Reich, who has now been fired twice in two years. Sean McVay won a Super Bowl but was that with the previous coach's roster? The last two seasons have been rocky.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
Steve and Brian currently coach the highest performing units of the team and there hasn't been any known criticism of their coaching by players. Everyone's other favorite head coach Kyle Shanahan grew up around the game of football. His first jobs were under his father's best friend Gary Kubiak andhe also spent a few seasons working with his dad Mike Shanahan. A certain other six time Super Bowl winning head coach also grew up around the game of football.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delieverd in 4 years"
Did it though? We almost made the playoffs in 2020 and made them in 2021. If those seasons were drastically worse I'd suspect BB would have made different draft choices and FA signings. If there's any fault worth giving to BB it's that he didn't better identify the actual state of the team the past two seasons (that we know of). The drafting in 2022 does suggest he knew something, as he traded back for Cole Strange. Nobody picked between our original spot and Strange moves the needle.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I've never heard Rob Gronkowski described that way before. This cliche is too simple to be useful. BB has taken many players that didn't fit or did fit his supposed "mold" as both draftees and FAs. LeGarette Blount is another positive example. Aaron Hernandez and Dominique Easley also didn't fit the BB mold and look how those turned out.

Fair Criticisms:​

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"
This is fair but could also be lacking sample size. The miss on N'Keal Harry continues to sting hard but drafting a WR that high was a rare occasion. The only other WRs drafted in the first or second round are Aaron Dobson (miss), Chad Jackson (miss), and Deion Branch (hit). The jury is still out on Tyquan Thornton and I'm reluctant to write him off just yet with the other dysfunction going on. Do we fault BB for drafting other players instead of WRs at other times? Drafting for a perennial contender is a lot different than drafting for a rebuild.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"
It's a natural human tendency to try and dstill complex systems into something easy to understand but these generalizations are never accurate whether it's a football team or the stock market.

1) There's three phases to football and 53 roster spots. QB is very important but Brady didn't play defense or special teams.
2) Not just Brady left. Thuney, Cannon, Hightower, Gronk, Edelman, James White, and countless others left, retired, or regressed (McCourty, Slater)

 

[Ross12]

View attachment 55044

I love the one from this year where he waits for the ref to come up next to him to fix a chain or something and just stares at them, waiting for them to make eye contact, and once they finally do, he whips the flag at their feet.

 

[Guts]

 

[Rob0729]

Personally, I don't care whether the rebuild started in 2020 or 2021, all I asked for this year was progress. Not a playoff appearance. Not a playoff win. Certainly not a Super Bowl appearance or win. Just that this team is building on last year (which was a step back from a year before) and moving towards being a contender. Instead they regressed quite a bit.

 

[203Pat]

The forum has become extremely repetitive on both sides of the debate. I'd like to save people risk of Reptitive Strain Injury and offer up an index of cliches with canned responses. Feel free to provide your own and I'll add them.

​

Cliches not rooted in logic or data:​

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
A refrain that loves to be used in any (all?) threads calling for BB's head. Users of this spew likely have Kyle Shanahan or Mike McDaniel in mind but unfortunately correlation does not equal causation. Kliff Kingsbury, Matt Nagy, Matt Rhule, Nathaniel Hackett, Adam Gase, Jay Gruden, Freddie Kitchens (45), Anthony Lynn (youngish, 48 when HC of LAC) have all been fired in recent seasons and qualify as young and innovative. If you want to remove young but keep innovative you could also include Frank Reich, who has now been fired twice in two years. Sean McVay won a Super Bowl but was that with the previous coach's roster? The last two seasons have been rocky.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
Steve and Brian currently coach the highest performing units of the team and there hasn't been any known criticism of their coaching by players. Everyone's other favorite head coach Kyle Shanahan grew up around the game of football. His first jobs were under his father's best friend Gary Kubiak andhe also spent a few seasons working with his dad Mike Shanahan. A certain other six time Super Bowl winning head coach also grew up around the game of football.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delieverd in 4 years"
Did it though? We almost made the playoffs in 2020 and made them in 2021. If those seasons were drastically worse I'd suspect BB would have made different draft choices and FA signings. If there's any fault worth giving to BB it's that he didn't better identify the actual state of the team the past two seasons (that we know of). The drafting in 2022 does suggest he knew something, as he traded back for Cole Strange. Nobody picked between our original spot and Strange moves the needle.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I've never heard Rob Gronkowski described that way before. This cliche is too simple to be useful. BB has taken many players that didn't fit or did fit his supposed "mold" as both draftees and FAs. LeGarette Blount is another positive example. Aaron Hernandez and Dominique Easley also didn't fit the BB mold and look how those turned out.

Fair Criticisms:​

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"
This is fair but could also be lacking sample size. The miss on N'Keal Harry continues to sting hard but drafting a WR that high was a rare occasion. The only other WRs drafted in the first or second round are Aaron Dobson (miss), Chad Jackson (miss), and Deion Branch (hit). The jury is still out on Tyquan Thornton and I'm reluctant to write him off just yet with the other dysfunction going on. Do we fault BB for drafting other players instead of WRs at other times? Drafting for a perennial contender is a lot different than drafting for a rebuild.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"
It's a natural human tendency to try and dstill complex systems into something easy to understand but these generalizations are never accurate whether it's a football team or the stock market.

1) There's three phases to football and 53 roster spots. QB is very important but Brady didn't play defense or special teams.
2) Not just Brady left. Thuney, Cannon, Hightower, Gronk, Edelman, James White, and countless others left, retired, or regressed (McCourty, Slater)

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
We do. In all likelihood we will have a rookie quarterback starting at least part of next season and we want a coach who is going to be with him for the long run. We don't want a defensive minded head coach who picks an OC to help develop the rookie only for said OC to get a head coaching job elsewhere in a couple years if all goes well then we become one of those teams shuffling schemes/terminolgy at the detriment of our quarterback. It is an offensive league and the whole "What about the guys that failed?" "logic" is just being scared the same way some on here seemed to be scared to embrace the tank and end up with a bust at QB. Yes, maybe Ben Johnson and Caleb Williams flame out but maybe theyre both great. Who knows? I sure as hell don't want to be a team to scared to make the best move in fear of failure.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
We do. It is a culture that doesn't work anymore. Without a driving force, alpha dog type in the locker room pushing Bill's message it isn't landing. Shanahan, and the numerous other coaches kids in the league, almost always work under multiple head coaches in different organizations. Steve and Brian have only worked under Bill, who with all his recent faults, is still a defensive mastermind (who can still draft better on defense as well). The Belichick boys won't get any real respect until they go out on their own. Whether it is fair or not most people will attribute their "success" to their father until they're out from under his shadow.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delieverd in 4 years"
It should have started then but it didn't. Bill has walked the line between rebuilding and reloading and in year 4 it is clear it has been a complete failure. 2020 was the perfect time to tear it down and do a true rebuild but Bill insisted on playing veterans who wouldn't be part of the long term over young guys. He also didn't maximize his assets when he decided to franchise Thuney and cost us a third round comp pick and held on to Gilmore when he could've netted a second or maybe even a first if we got lucky. He doubled down on avoiding a true rebuild with the spending spree in 2021 that yielded mild results at best and we got our doors blown in when the playoffs came around. We all know how he botched last year with the Patricia experiment and the players revolting against that. This year we have truly bottomed out and it is clear this rebuild, reload, or whatever you want to call it has been a miserable, embarrassing, failure for Bill.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I don't really see many people saying this specific statement but it is clear whatever Bill is using to evaluate college players coming in isn't working. There is no way around it. I don't care really care why they aren't working at this point just that they aren't working and it seems more an more evident every year Bill doesn't know how to draft in crucial areas for the modern NFL. As for not taking risks I don't know who said that. For almost a decade now the "safe" picks have been bad and the risks have been bad so once again, who cares what the reason is? It just isn't working.

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"
He doesn't. Anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either trolling or completely delusional. We all know about how much talent was in that 2019 draft and Bill ended up with N'Keal Harry. AJ Brown is what Harry was supposed to be and he was sitting right there. Deebo was a guy everyone had slotted to the Patriots. Not just fans but writers and draft pundits but he ended up in Bill's doghouse for a stupid comment on social media. The jury isn't out on Thornton. It's done. It's a wrap. Tyquan is a bust.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"

"Made him" may be a stretch but the facts are the facts. Bill's record without Tom is bad. Tom's record without Bill is good. Does any reasonable person think that the either of them would have had the success that they had over two decades without each other? No but we saw a lot of people on here diminishing what Brady did here and meant here when he went to Tampa only for him to instantly win a Super Bowl while we have gone from mediocrity to laughing stock. Another one that gets harder and harder for anyone on Bill's side to defend. Bill had a good run but it's time to step aside before he embarrasses himself any further.

 

[VrabelJr]

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
We do. In all likelihood we will have a rookie quarterback starting at least part of next season and we want a coach who is going to be with him for the long run. We don't want a defensive minded head coach who picks an OC to help develop the rookie only for said OC to get a head coaching job elsewhere in a couple years if all goes well then we become one of those teams shuffling schemes/terminolgy at the detriment of our quarterback. It is an offensive league and the whole "What about the guys that failed?" "logic" is just being scared the same way some on here seemed to be scared to embrace the tank and end up with a bust at QB. Yes, maybe Ben Johnson and Caleb Williams flame out but maybe theyre both great. Who knows? I sure as hell don't want to be a team to scared to make the best move in fear of failure.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
We do. It is a culture that doesn't work anymore. Without a driving force, alpha dog type in the locker room pushing Bill's message it isn't landing. Shanahan, and the numerous other coaches kids in the league, almost always work under multiple head coaches in different organizations. Steve and Brian have only worked under Bill, who with all his recent faults, is still a defensive mastermind (who can still draft better on defense as well). The Belichick boys won't get any real respect until they go out on their own. Whether it is fair or not most people will attribute their "success" to their father until they're out from under his shadow.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delieverd in 4 years"
It should have started then but it didn't. Bill has walked the line between rebuilding and reloading and in year 4 it is clear it has been a complete failure. 2020 was the perfect time to tear it down and do a true rebuild but Bill insisted on playing veterans who wouldn't be part of the long term over young guys. He also didn't maximize his assets when he decided to franchise Thuney and cost us a third round comp pick and held on to Gilmore when he could've netted a second or maybe even a first if we got lucky. He doubled down on avoiding a true rebuild with the spending spree in 2021 that yielded mild results at best and we got our doors blown in when the playoffs came around. We all know how he botched last year with the Patricia experiment and the players revolting against that. This year we have truly bottomed out and it is clear this rebuild, reload, or whatever you want to call it has been a miserable, embarrassing, failure for Bill.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I don't really see many people saying this specific statement but it is clear whatever Bill is using to evaluate college players coming in isn't working. There is no way around it. I don't care really care why they aren't working at this point just that they aren't working and it seems more an more evident every year Bill doesn't know how to draft in crucial areas for the modern NFL. As for not taking risks I don't know who said that. For almost a decade now the "safe" picks have been bad and the risks have been bad so once again, who cares what the reason is? It just isn't working.

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"
He doesn't. Anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either trolling or completely delusional. We all know about how much talent was in that 2019 draft and Bill ended up with N'Keal Harry. AJ Brown is what Harry was supposed to be and he was sitting right there. Deebo was a guy everyone had slotted to the Patriots. Not just fans but writers and draft pundits but he ended up in Bill's doghouse for a stupid comment on social media. The jury isn't out on Thornton. It's done. It's a wrap. Tyquan is a bust.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"

"Made him" may be a stretch but the facts are the facts. Bill's record without Tom is bad. Tom's record without Bill is good. Does any reasonable person think that the either of them would have had the success that they had over two decades without each other? No but we saw a lot of people on here diminishing what Brady did here and meant here when he went to Tampa only for him to instantly win a Super Bowl while we have gone from mediocrity to laughing stock. Another one that gets harder and harder for anyone on Bill's side to defend. Bill had a good run but it's time to step aside before he embarrasses himself any further.

I appreciate the detailed reply. I don't care too much about what Steve Belichick and Brian Belichick need to do to get respect around the league. If they keep coaching well here they will get that respect and go onto bigger and better things, or stay here and keep doing great.

I completely agree that BB seems to have waffled on whether to rebuild or re-tool. Your criticisms of the handling of Thuney and Gilmore are spot on. I think most of the pain we're feeling right now is directly due to the epic failure of the 2019 draft.

Regarding Brady leaving: Yes he won a Super Bowl without Belichick and I'll never diminish Brady's impact on this franchise. He's my favorite player of all time and likely always will be. His last year there the Bucs went 8-9. If it's not Tom Brady's fault the Bucs went 8-9 then it is Todd Bowles' fault which is an admission that coaching matters. I don't want to get into whether the Bucs were so talented in 2020 they were practically Instant Ready Ramen just waiting for hot water, but the defense definintely carried them in the playoffs that year.

 

[VrabelJr]

Interesting thought process. Would have to agree that although the WRs on this roster are not stellar, issues at QB and OL are much bigger contributors to the present situation than WR.

We all know football is won in the trenches. That's why we're all salivating over the 49ers and Eagles. We used to play that way.

 

[203Pat]

I appreciate the detailed reply. I don't care too much about what Steve Belichick and Brian Belichick need to do to get respect around the league. If they keep coaching well here they will get that respect and go onto bigger and better things, or stay here and keep doing great.

I completely agree that BB seems to have waffled on whether to rebuild or re-tool. Your criticisms of the handling of Thuney and Gilmore are spot on. I think most of the pain we're feeling right now is directly due to the epic failure of the 2019 draft.

Regarding Brady leaving: Yes he won a Super Bowl without Belichick and I'll never diminish Brady's impact on this franchise. He's my favorite player of all time and likely always will be. His last year there the Bucs went 8-9. If it's not Tom Brady's fault the Bucs went 8-9 then it is Todd Bowles' fault which is an admission that coaching matters. I don't want to get into whether the Bucs were so talented in 2020 they were practically Instant Ready Ramen just waiting for hot water, but the defense definintely carried them in the playoffs that year.

If they go elsewhere for a few years as defensive coordinators and have success they absolutely will be considered for head coaching positions in a few year but who knows if that is what they want to do. As for Brady and Tampa they had a collection of good players down there when he got there but were a 5-7 win team in the three seasons before he got there and he put them over the top. Not just by being a great quarterback but the other guys he was able to get to come in for a chance at a ring. As for the 2022 season I do think Brady should shoulder a good amount of the blame. He retired then un-retired early in the offseason then went MIA for a month in training camp and never looked right likely to off-field issues. He is human and I get that when your family is falling apart it isn't easy to be all in on football but Brady probably should have just stayed retired. His last season wasn't a complete mess but likely one he would undo if you were able to get an honest answer out of him.