Defense wins championships

[PatsFan24]

After watching that game tonight the Pats seem miles away on that side of the ball.

Hopefully some good things to come in the next few years...

The Patriots have a lot of good players on D but they were just too banged up this year.

 

[patriot1136]

What do you guys think the outcome would have been if it was us in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks?

 

[Wilfork#75]

What do you guys think the outcome would have been if it was us in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks?

We certainly put up more of a fight, but Seattle still wins. Nobody in the NFL was beating them the way they played.

 

[Kontradiction]

The Saints in 2009 won the SB with the #1 scoring offense in the league.

The Seahawks defense is uncomparable. They drafted the best CB in the league with a 5th round pick. Since their QB makes less than 1 million, they can sign Avril/Bennett to bolster the pass rush.

Constructing a Seahawks defense is nearly impossible with a QB making 12+ million a year.

I'd disagree on your third paragraph. You can build a Seattle caliber defense if you hit on all your draft picks on that side of the ball in a three year span. Not all of those guys are first rounders. However, that means having to forego drafting Tavon Wilson in the third round, just as an example.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'd disagree on your third paragraph. You can build a Seattle caliber defense if you hit on all your draft picks on that side of the ball in a three year span. Not all of those guys are first rounders. However, that means having to forego drafting Tavon Wilson in the third round, just as an example.

1. You draft Carlos Dunlap instead of Jermaine Cunningham in the 2010 draft at #53, and you draft Greg Hardy at #150 instead of a punter. Both guys were on my short list. You can never have enough good edge rushers, and punters can be found any time.

2. You draft Navorro Bowman at #63 in 2010 instead of a slow thumper like Brandon Spikes.

3. You draft Harrison Smith at #25 in 2012 instead of Dont'a Hightower, and Lavonte David at #48 instead of Tavon Wilson. Boths guys got extensive attention from the Pats. You want guys who can play in space.

3. You draft Muhammad Wilkerson at #28 in 2011. Another guy who the Pats looked at closely. Then, when Mark Ingram is still on the board, you trade #33 to New Orleans for #56 and a 2012 1st, possibly throwing something in as change.

4. You take Richard Sherman in the 3rd or 4th round in 2011. He was my day 3 binky that year.

5. You do a bit better with your FA signings, and pick up Terrance Knighton in FA this year, knowing that Wilfork can't last forever and needs to reduce his snaps.

Your defense:

DE: Greg Hardy, Carlos Dunlap, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Michael Buchanan
DT: [Vince Wilfork -> IR], Muhammad Wilkerson, Terrance Knighton, Sealver Siliga, Chris Jones, [Armond Armstead -> IR]
LB: [Jerod Mayo -> IR], Navorro Bowman, Lavonte David, Jamie Collins, Dane Fletcher
S: Devin McCourty, Harrison Smith, Steve Gregory, Duron Harmon
CB: Richard Sherman, Aqib Talib, Afonzo Dennard, Logan Ryan, Kyle Arrington

 

[voluntarysaftey]

I can't help but wonder if having a elite QB and the subsequent cap hit is going to make it difficult to pair an elite D with said QB.

Perhaps the Patriots can continue to add good players and change up the scheme. The Pats D seems far too passive for mine. The Seahawks chased the game. At times, it feels like the Pats sit back and wait for the opposition to make their mistakes rather than forcing them.

Fingers crossed for a healthy run next season.

A 20M cap hit qb obviously hurts as that's 2 dominant defensive players. But the 20M cap hit QB is better than a 10-15M cap hit crappy free agent qb

Having a great QB on a rookie contract is a huge advantage -- but it takes a lot of luck to have that.

 

[reflexblue]

1. You draft Carlos Dunlap instead of Jermaine Cunningham in the 2010 draft at #53, and you draft Greg Hardy at #150 instead of a punter. Boht guys were on my short list. You can never have enough good edge rushers, and punters can be found any time.

2. You draft Navorro Bowman at #63 in 2010 instead of a slow thumper like Brandon Spikes.

3. You draft Harrison Smith at #25 in 2012 instead of Dont'a Hightower, and Lavonte David at #48 instead of Tavon Wilson. Boths guys got extensive attention from the Pats.

3. You draft Muhammad Wilkerson at #28 in 2011. Another guy who the Pats looked at closely. Then, when Mark Ingram is still on the board, you trade #33 to New Orleans for #56 and a 2012 1st, possibly throwing something in as change.

4. You take Richard Sherman in the 3rd or 4th round in 2011. He was my day 3 binky that year.

5. You do a bit better with your FA signings, and pick up Terrance Knighton in FA this year, knowing that Wilfork can't last forever and needs to reduce his snaps.

Your defense:

DE: Greg Hardy, Carlos Dunlap, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich.
DT: [Vince Wilfork -> IR], Muhammad Wilkerson, Terrance Knighton, Sealver Siliga, Chris Jones (after Wilfork goes on IR)
LB: [Jerod Mayo -> IR], Navorro Bowman, Lavonte David, Jamie Collins
S: Devin McCourty, Harrison Smith, Steve Gregory, Duron Harmon
CB: Richard Sherman, Aqib Talib, Afonzo Dennard, Logan Ryan, Kyle Arrington

People would say that those players don't fit the BB mold, a perfect example was Cunningham over Dunlop. I remember when the team passed up Dunlop for Cunningham that Dunlop wouldn't work in a BB defense. Thats the way its been for many players that have had outstanding credentials but were passed up. They're to short or to light etc. I feel if a player has talent BB will find a way to make it work. Look at all the Offensive lineman that have been turned from JAGs into very good players. The year that Solder was drafted i was stunned for rest of the season. It had been obvious that the team needed a pass rush, that the front line needed help. Solder was drafted first, the second first rnd pick was traded, Cameron Jordan was still available along with Wilkerson. And again Wilkerson was passed up for Dowling. After that year i gave up on paying any real attention to the draft.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah you're right. People have only been saying 'defense wins championships' for the last two weeks.

And the Patriots defense being awful is only a phenomenon that occurred in January 2014.

This is definitely some knee jerk bull**** on our part.

Are you done with your strawman arguments of things no one ever said?

Let me know when you are and we can discuss how good defenses are great to have, but they don't work against great offenses all of the time. Even the Patriots 2nd SB victory shows that sometimes you need a great QB and a great offense. That would definitely apply to the 49ers as well who went up against legendary defenses year after year--and won with offense.

 

[makoute]

If BB was the coach of Denver, they would have won today. I don't agree with the "defense wins Championships" thing. The best football team wins. Offense. Defense. Special Teams. Coaching.

So no, I don't think we need to "mold our team after Seattle!!!111ONE!!!!"

Yes, the way they won was very successful, but that's not the only formula to win.

Based on what?

 

[upstater1]

Defensive line pressure was the difference. Peyton was never comfortable.

We lost to the Giants because of DL pressure. We need DL pressure to be a legit SB defense.

While I agree here, compare how Brady played against the Giants to Manning.

You simply can't choke there and give up interceptions by throwing the ball up eyes closed. A gamble INT 50 yards downfield is a different story, but those pick 6s are absolute killers.

I see a difference in composure when these 2 QBs are under pressure.

 

[mayoclinic]

People would say that those players don't fit the BB mold, a perfect example was Cunningham over Dunlop. I remember when the team passed up Dunlop for Cunningham that Dunlop wouldn't work in a BB defense. Thats the way its been for many players that have had outstanding credentials but were passed up. They're to short or to light etc. I feel if a player has talent BB will find a way to make it work. Look at all the Offensive lineman that have been turned from JAGs into very good players. The year that Solder was drafted i was stunned for rest of the season. It had been obvious that the team needed a pass rush, that the front line needed help. Solder was drafted first, the second first rnd pick was traded, Cameron Jordan was still available along with Wilkerson. And again Wilkerson was passed up for Dowling. After that year i gave up on paying any real attention to the draft.

Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy "fit the mold" every bit as much as Chandler Jones. The difference is that Seattle has had a consistent blueprint of what kind of defensive scheme they wanted to run, and what kind of player fit that scheme. BB has been bouncing around - he's taken guys like Jones but passed up guys like Dunlap in favor of Cunningham, he's taken guys like Jamie Collins but passed up fluid LBs like Lavonte David in favor of big thumpers like Dont'a Hightower, and he's traded for a big CB like Aqib Talib (and drafted Ras-I Dowling at 33) but passed up numerous opportunities to get more of those guys on day 3 of the draft.

There have been a ton of wasted opportunities to get impact players because the FO wasn't clear on what direction it wanted the defense to go in. That falls on BB. Schneider and Carroll deserve props for having a unified, clear vision and executing it. Clarity = power.

 

[reflexblue]

Are you done with your strawman arguments of things no one ever said?

Let me know when you are and we can discuss how good defenses are great to have, but they don't work against great offenses all of the time. Even the Patriots 2nd SB victory shows that sometimes you need a great QB and a great offense. That would definitely apply to the 49ers as well who went up against legendary defenses year after year--and won with offense.

Well those niner teams also had excellent defenses to go along with the great offense

 

[upstater1]

Well those niner teams also had excellent defenses.

Agreed, but look at some of the scores against top Ds like Dallas, Giants and the Bears.

1994
NFCCG 38-28
SB 49-26

1988-1989
Offense very good, but no question, the defense was just as good.

1984
SB 38-16 against great Miami offense.

1981
38-24 against Giants
28-27 against Cowboys
26-21 against Cincy

In 2 of the 4 championship years, the credit goes to the offense. In 2 of the other years, the credit went to the defense. And yes I well remember Haley, Lott and the rest of them.

 

[RIpats88]

TO be honest, as long as we keep Talib and dont have any major injuries I really like our defense next year. before we lost talib, mayo, wilfork our defense actually looked pretty dominant at times out there.

Secondary: Talib, Dennard, Logan Ryan(2nd year), arrington
safety: mcCourty, harmon
LB: May, Hightower, Collins
DL: Chandler jones, Wilfork, chris jones, ninkovich.

only thing I could think of wanting is another pass rusher to compliment Chandler jones.

Collins, harmon, Logan ryan all had promising rookie seasons and should improve in their 2nd year.

 

[PatsDeb]

Brady has enough weapons, we need a loaded defense. Tom can do his magic, but the D needs help.

Load up on D bb!!!

I was going to say this in an open letter to BB. Keep the smurfs for Brady and load up on D. We need some thugs in the secondary!!

 

[Big-T]

It's a shame they didn't go out and get Ray Horton when he was available, he would have transformed the Patriots defense into a top 10 - possibly top 5 in every defensive category.

He might run a 3-4 but this team has players to run it:

Chris Jones-Kelly-Armstead
Ninkovich-Collins-Mayo-Chan. Jones​

That's assuming Wilfork gets cut too! If he isn't you could have had Kelly and Wilfork on a 3-4 line!

That front 7 would cause havoc in Horton's system then there's a good number of players in the draft that would further improve that unit.

 

[reflexblue]

Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy "fit the mold" every bit as much as Chandler Jones. The difference is that Seattle has had a consistent blueprint of what kind of defensive scheme they wanted to run, and what kind of player fit that scheme. BB has been bouncing around - he's taken guys like Jones but passed up guys like Dunlap in favor of Cunningham, he's taken guys like Jamie Collins but passed up fluid LBs like Lavonte David in favor of big thumpers like Dont'a Hightower, and he's traded for a big CB like Aqib Talib (and drafted Ras-I Dowling at 33) but passed up numerous opportunities to get more of those guys on day 3 of the draft.

There have been a ton of wasted opportunities to get impact players because the FO wasn't clear on what direction it wanted the defense to go in. That falls on BB. Schneider and Carroll deserve props for having a unified, clear vision and executing it. Clarity = power.

Yes there have been a lot of wasted opportunities. I don't pay attention enough to players and direction to agree or not. But now that you mention it the players that have been selected (especially at LB) are more suited to the the way the game was played ten or fifteen years ago, before the rules were cahnged to help the QB and the passing game. Ive said many times in the past that after the 06 lose to manning and the colts that BB changed his overall team philosophy from a defense first to offensive first one. He traded for Moss and put the team on TBs shoulders, and thats the ways its been ever since. That was a mistake, he should have stuck to his old philosophy.

 

[mayoclinic]

It's a shame they didn't go out and get Ray Horton when he was available, he would have transformed the Patriots defense into a top 10 - possibly top 5 in every defensive category.

I've wanted Horton for the past 2 years. He ran a hybrid 3-4/4-3 at Arizona, and could have fit nicely.

 

[primetime]

The difference between Seattle and most every other team in the league is that Seattle has been consistently good at drafting on the defensive side of the ball.

The problem is that 'good at drafting' and 'blessed with pure dumb luck' may as well be synonyms. Playing make-believe where the Patriots draft a team consisting entirely of All-Pros who were available at that draft position is absurd, especially considering those players may not have even been All-Pro caliber players if on a different team in a different situation.

 

[mayoclinic]

TO be honest, as long as we keep Talib and dont have any major injuries I really like our defense next year. before we lost talib, mayo, wilfork our defense actually looked pretty dominant at times out there.

Secondary: Talib, Dennard, Logan Ryan(2nd year), arrington
safety: mcCourty, harmon
LB: Mayo, Hightower, Collins
DL: Chandler jones, Wilfork, chris jones, ninkovich.

only thing I could think of wanting is another pass rusher to compliment Chandler jones.

Collins, harmon, Logan ryan all had promising rookie seasons and should improve in their 2nd year.

You're assuming that Wilfork can come back at a meaningful level, which isn't at all clear. And he's 33.

My wish list (aside from Talib coming back):

1. A replacement for Wilfork at NT if it's not likely that he can return to form (I personally think it's unlikely). Siliga is great as a backup and rotational guy. Linval Joseph in FA, Louis Nix round 1, or Justin Ellis day 3 are my preferences.
2. A rotational DE or two for depth and variety. Chandler Jones and Ninkovitch played over 1000 snaps last year. Way too much.
3. Another hybrid DE/LB who can play in space. We need to get much more fluid in our LB group. Christian Jones, Marcus Smith or Kyle Van Noy would all be terrific.
4. If the value is there, a 3-tech. I don't see Chris Jones as a starter. Armstead could emerge, but he's an unknown right now. Tommy Kelly could be back as a stopgap, but if the right guy is available at the right time, someone like Ra'Shede Hageman, Timmy Jernigan or Aaron Donald could be a revelation.
5. Depth at DB, especially a big outside CB so that we never see Kyle Arrington outside again. Stanley Jean-Baptiste, Antone Exum, Aaron Colvin and Jonathan Dowling are all interesting. An upgrade at SS would also be nice, and some of these guys can play safety as well as CB.

It's not just about the "starting 11". Depth is critical, as Seattle showed.

In addition, we have to be much more physical and more aggressive (not undisciplined, but aggressive) on defense. You have to take it to the offense, or they will take it to you. We're much too passive.