Defense wins championships

[RhodyPatriot]

Yep. Tom can do his magic. But he needs a defense to help stop the other team. He can't do it all.

The Patriots don't need Tom to do it all in the playoffs. What they need from Tom is for him to play to his potential and make the plays that are there to be made but that is not something we have seen from him for several years.

Upgrading this defense needs to be priority number 1.

 

[upstater1]

Don't forget that Dunlap was a top 10 talent who was a major dog in college. He didn't play very hard and his college coach gave him poor evals. Belichick was going to stay away with a ten foot poll. You can get injured in college, you can do drugs, you can even be a headcase like Dez bryant (who played hard) but if you're lazy or take plays off, that's a killer for the draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

...The difference is that Seattle has had a consistent blueprint of what kind of defensive scheme they wanted to run, and what kind of player fit that scheme. BB has been bouncing around - he's taken guys like Jones but passed up guys like Dunlap in favor of Cunningham, he's taken guys like Jamie Collins but passed up fluid LBs like Lavonte David in favor of big thumpers like Dont'a Hightower, and he's traded for a big CB like Aqib Talib (and drafted Ras-I Dowling at 33) but passed up numerous opportunities to get more of those guys on day 3 of the draft.

There have been a ton of wasted opportunities to get impact players because the FO wasn't clear on what direction it wanted the defense to go in. That falls on BB. Schneider and Carroll deserve props for having a unified, clear vision and executing it. Clarity = power.

This!

1,000 times, this!

The Patriots had a 3-4 LB corps (Nink, Mayo, Spikes, Hightower), and a 3-4 NT (Wilfork), and they didn't have the 3-4 DEs. Instead of getting the 3-4 DEs, BB drafted a 4-3 DE (Jones) and whatever you want to call Collins (Certainly not a BB-style 3-4 DE or LB). He also started signing guys like Fortson and Jones, instead of legit 3-4 DL.

I don't know if he saw all the teams converting to the 3-4 and decided that he didn't want to compete for players, or if it was something else. Whatever it was, his schizophrenic approach (and some lousy draft picks) mean that the team isn't going to be properly set up again this year, no matter which direction he decides to go, and it'll have to be cut /paste for at least another season.

 

[SalemPats]

Our defense was our strength this year and we lost 3 of our top players in Wilfork/Mayo/Kelly. Next year we will be healthy, our secondary is solid, BB is developing a top 5 defense. Next year we will win it all

 

[TonyTucker]

The Patriots could have had their own legion of boom, with "Third Leg" Steve Gregory, Ras-I Dowling, Tavon Wilson, Terrence Wheatley, Jonathan "The Hammer" Wilhite, and Brandon Meriweather.

 

[mb6592]

BB is building an elite defense and with Brady we can win it all

When everyone was healthy, we had a top five D that could rush the passer up the A and B gaps.

We had a pretty good defense this year, it would have been a top 5 or 6 D if we had not had the injuries.

I have no problem with the Pats defensive philosophy because it has been successful over the last decade…

BB is developing a top 5 defense.

Geesh, where do you guys get this crap from? You don't become a top 5 defense by say so. The defense looked promising (especially to us defense starved fans) prior to the start of injuries. That's a far cry from a top 5 defense - a title that is earned over a longer hall (like Seattle, 49ers, Panthers, Chiefs and the Ravens of old). Only after sustained success - not after three or four games - should this boast be uttered.

 

[condon84]

While I agree here, compare how Brady played against the Giants to Manning.

You simply can't choke there and give up interceptions by throwing the ball up eyes closed. A gamble INT 50 yards downfield is a different story, but those pick 6s are absolute killers.

I see a difference in composure when these 2 QBs are under pressure.

Yeah, Peyton wilted despite not getting hit the way Brady was getting hit against the Giants.

But for the conversation in regards to our defense, it's time BB goes out there and get speed guys on the DL/front 7. Drafting Collins was a step in the right direction.

 

[Deus Irae]

Geesh, where do you guys get this crap from? You don't become a top 5 defense by say so. The defense looked promising (especially to us defense starved fans) prior to the start of injuries. That's a far cry from a top 5 defense - a title that is earned over a longer hall (like Seattle, 49ers, Panthers, Chiefs and the Ravens of old). Only after sustained success - not after three or four games - should this boast be uttered.

The people who are pimping the Patriots defense from the start of the year are either ignoring the level of opponents, or just making optimistic projections. It's a hope based upon beating E.J. Manuel, Geno Smith, Josh Freeman, a devastated Falcons offense and a Bengals offense that hadn't gotten in rhythm yet. Things looked good, but they didn't hold up.

The Patriots didn't face a good offense that was playing well until they played the Saints, and the defense didn't stop that team. The hope is that a lot of it was injury related. The fact is that we just don't know.

 

[SalemPats]

Geesh, where do you guys get this crap from? You don't become a top 5 defense by say so. The defense looked promising (especially to us defense starved fans) prior to the start of injuries. That's a far cry from a top 5 defense - a title that is earned over a longer hall (like Seattle, 49ers, Panthers, Chiefs and the Ravens of old). Only after sustained success - not after three or four games - should this boast be uttered.

The front seven was fantastic when healthy. Wilfork/Kelly were great against the run. Jones was never doubled on the outside and was developing very nicely. Our LB corps was elite with Mayo/Collins/Ninko/Spikes.

Look at the first 5 games, our defense was top 5. BB had to rebuild a defense and our young guys were finally developing into an elite group. What i was most impressed with was how our secondary improved. Talib looks like a shutdown outside corner, Dennard look good, arrington/Ryan were solid in the nickel. McCourty had a great year.

I'm not sure what games you were watching, but why would you not think our defense is going to be strong next year. You might want to watch some of the games

 

[captain stone]

...You can build a Seattle caliber defense if you hit on all your draft picks on that side of the ball in a three year span. Not all of those guys are first rounders. However, that means having to forego drafting Tavon Wilson in the third round, just as an example.

Or worse, Tavon Wilson in the 2nd round (48th overall!?!). Perhaps you were thinking of another
of Bill's Blunders, Jake Bequette (a 5th-round value) in the 3rd round of the very same draft. Inexcusable.

 

[Kontradiction]

Or worse, Tavon Wilson in the 2nd round (48th overall!?!). Perhaps you were thinking of another
of Bill's Blunders, Jake Bequette (a 5th-round value) in the 3rd round of the very same draft. Inexcusable.

Actually, I was thinking about Harmon, I believe.

 

[patsfan-1982]

defense does win championships but I don't see the pats ever having a defense as good as the Seahawks for the few years left in the Brady era, but if they can re-sign Aqib Talib, redo wilfork contract and hope him a Kelly can play the way they did before injury with Mayo coming back and lots of upside in Jamie Collins and Logan Ryan and add one more pass rusher they can be good a nuff to win a SB

 

[Deus Irae]

For those of you who've been telling me I'm wrong to think the safety spot is an issue, take it up with Rodney:

“I really believe, if they could get that physical, hard-hitting safety … I think that's something they need to look for,” he said. “Someone like [Seattle's] Kam Chancellor, or even not that big of a safety because it's hard to find safeties that big that can still move. But just somebody when you come across the middle you know you're going to get whacked.”

Rodney Harrison assesses New England Patriots' future - ESPN Boston

 

[Deus Irae]

Follow up, from the mouth of a Seattle player:

"Watching the film coming into the week, we'd seen that they haven't played a defense like ours. They haven't played a defense that flies around like we do, that hits like we do, and we just do it every single play.

Peyton Manning's Super Bowl dream goes bad in a snap - latimes.com

 

[manxman2601]

Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy "fit the mold" every bit as much as Chandler Jones. The difference is that Seattle has had a consistent blueprint of what kind of defensive scheme they wanted to run, and what kind of player fit that scheme. BB has been bouncing around - he's taken guys like Jones but passed up guys like Dunlap in favor of Cunningham, he's taken guys like Jamie Collins but passed up fluid LBs like Lavonte David in favor of big thumpers like Dont'a Hightower, and he's traded for a big CB like Aqib Talib (and drafted Ras-I Dowling at 33) but passed up numerous opportunities to get more of those guys on day 3 of the draft.

There have been a ton of wasted opportunities to get impact players because the FO wasn't clear on what direction it wanted the defense to go in. That falls on BB. Schneider and Carroll deserve props for having a unified, clear vision and executing it. Clarity = power.

What evidence is there that BB doesn't have a consistent blueprint? All that can be known is that we don't know what that blueprint is. BB is one of the great defensive minds, it's a little presumptuous to think he doesn't think with clarity.

 

[mayoclinic]

What evidence is there that BB doesn't have a consistent blueprint? All that can be known is that we don't know what that blueprint is. BB is one of the great defensive minds, it's a little presumptuous to think he doesn't think with clarity.

- In 2010 reports were that he picked Cunningham or Dunlap in large part because he thought Cunningham was a better fit at 3-4 OLB. He then switched to a 4-3 base and Cunningham didn't fit well at all, and didn't last out his rookie contract, while Dunlap flourished in a 4-3 base with Cincinnati. Meanwhile in 2012 Belichick drafted Chandler Jones, who fit much more as a 4-3 base DE than as a 3-4 OLB.

- In 2010 Belichick drafted a thumper LB in Brandon Spikes who was a natural fit in a 3-4 base. Then in 2012 he looked at every smaller, faster LB (Lavonte David, Bobby Wagner, Mychael Kendricks, Zach Brown, Demario Davis) and was widely rumored to have interest, only to take another 3-4 thumper in Dont'a Hightower who was largely redundant with Spikes. Then in 2013 he drafted a much more fluid LB in Jamie Collins.

We obviously don't have access to BB's thought processes, and he's not exactly likely to explain himself, but it seems like he has been rather inconsistent in the type of player he has been targeting, or the kind of defense that he wants to run.
He has spoken openly about the evolution of the game and moving to different types of players than he would have previously targeted (I believe those comments were made after drafting Chandler Jones), so great mind or not, he seems to be moving in a somewhat new direction at times, while at other times he seems mired in old habits.

I think that if BB were truly clear about trying to run a hybrid scheme with a predominantly 4 man front he would have been more aggressive about some of the players he passed up. But that's only my surmise. Short of BB explaining himself, we won't have clear "evidence".

 

[BelizePats]

Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy "fit the mold" every bit as much as Chandler Jones. The difference is that Seattle has had a consistent blueprint of what kind of defensive scheme they wanted to run, and what kind of player fit that scheme. BB has been bouncing around - he's taken guys like Jones but passed up guys like Dunlap in favor of Cunningham, he's taken guys like Jamie Collins but passed up fluid LBs like Lavonte David in favor of big thumpers like Dont'a Hightower, and he's traded for a big CB like Aqib Talib (and drafted Ras-I Dowling at 33) but passed up numerous opportunities to get more of those guys on day 3 of the draft.

There have been a ton of wasted opportunities to get impact players because the FO wasn't clear on what direction it wanted the defense to go in. That falls on BB. Schneider and Carroll deserve props for having a unified, clear vision and executing it. Clarity = power.

This here is a pretty good post! I can't disagree with any of it.

 

[upstater1]

I bet a lot of coaches are now going to run around trying to draft the next Chancellor. They are going to end up with a lot of Taylor Mays's instead.

I always see 6'3" 225 pound guys playing safety in college. The trouble is they should be playing OLB instead. Almost all of them are horrid in coverage.

 

[manxman2601]

- In 2010 reports were that he picked Cunningham or Dunlap in large part because he thought Cunningham was a better fit at 3-4 OLB. He then switched to a 4-3 base and Cunningham didn't fit well at all, and didn't last out his rookie contract, while Dunlap flourished in a 4-3 base with Cincinnati. Meanwhile in 2012 Belichick drafted Chandler Jones, who fit much more as a 4-3 base DE than as a 3-4 OLB.

- In 2010 Belichick drafted a thumper LB in Brandon Spikes who was a natural fit in a 3-4 base. Then in 2012 he looked at every smaller, faster LB (Lavonte David, Bobby Wagner, Mychael Kendricks, Zach Brown, Demario Davis) and was widely rumored to have interest, only to take another 3-4 thumper in Dont'a Hightower who was largely redundant with Spikes. Then in 2013 he drafted a much more fluid LB in Jamie Collins.

We obviously don't have access to BB's thought processes, and he's not exactly likely to explain himself, but it seems like he has been rather inconsistent in the type of player he has been targeting, or the kind of defense that he wants to run.
He has spoken openly about the evolution of the game and moving to different types of players than he would have previously targeted (I believe those comments were made after drafting Chandler Jones), so great mind or not, he seems to be moving in a somewhat new direction at times, while at other times he seems mired in old habits.

I think that if BB were truly clear about trying to run a hybrid scheme with a predominantly 4 man front he would have been more aggressive about some of the players he passed up. But that's only my surmise. Short of BB explaining himself, we won't have clear "evidence".

I don't think BB was inconsistent at LB at all. BB prioritises defending the run, I think in part because he wants teams to put the ball in the air, a lower percentage play. To that end, he makes sure that he's got size at the LB position to destroy blockers without having to stack the box. Spikes clearly fits that mould. Hightower was brought in to be a Spikes replacement but in addition, Hightower was the defensive leader on arguably the best college defense in recent years. As for the mini linebackers, yes he did look at them and then didn't draft them but still took a coverage linebacker that is potentially as good as David and Kendrick's et al but happens to fit his 250+ requirement. That seems wholly consistent to me,

As for crediting Schneider and Carroll. It's easy to be consistent of vision when you've only been doing it three years. Not so easy when you've had fifteen years of almost perpetual low picks.

 

[Deus Irae]

Slightly OT, but important:


A lot of people have been spending the past few years insisting that BB's approach is "the best", as if they could rank one successful way clearly ahead of others. We got a lot of this when people were discussing Julius Jones. While BB hoards his draft picks like Gollum with his precious, the Seahawks were willing to give up multiple picks, including a first, for Percy Harvin.


Last night, Harvin showed why you sometimes make those deals.