Are the Pats ready to deal Laurence Maroney?

[Deus Irae]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Difference being while Cassel was criticized this past offseason,He had not even one regular season game under his belt so it was not justified even though we were not exactly secure with Matt at the helm in september.

In Lomo's circumstance he has had 3 years to become a staple of this offense,Cassel did it in a few games - LoMo has yet to be an impact player 3 years later - injury excuses aside.

Hmmmmm.... your earlier take on this:

....and of course this bum Cassel who sucks without a doubt!.....

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/103723-jackson-cassel-hobson-survive-first-cutdown-page2.html#post983058

THAT wasn't justified, even though you were one of those doing it, but THIS is just A-OK.....

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Case adjourned. There really isn't any more that can be said regarding Maroney, as far as I'm concerned. Good post, FANPA. Unfortunately, it's an argument that you may ultimately lose in a Pats forum. No room for objectivity here . . . I tried and got burned already.

There is plenty more that can be said about Maroney. He's good when he's healthy, which he rarely is. Look at his YPC when he's healthy, and it's obvious that this is the case. Add in the fact that he's on a very manageable contract, and that the Pats wouldn't save much money by unloading his salary, and you have no good reason whatsoever to trade him.

Not saying that Maroney's awesome, or that he needs more time to develop. Just that he is what he is, and, for what he's paid, that's fine. If he does happen to stay healthy and turn in a big season this year, then that would be a great bonus. If not, then that's fine too.

 

[DW Toys]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Case adjourned. There really isn't any more that can be said regarding Maroney, as far as I'm concerned. Good post, FANPA. Unfortunately, it's an argument that you may ultimately lose in a Pats forum. No room for objectivity here . . . I tried and got burned already.

There are many "poster boys" for that title on this site Cousin. Someone said on a site a few days ago that the throngs were lighting their torches and getting their pitchforks. That was a great line (whomever said it).
DW Toys

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

And the question has never been answered why Morris and Jordan and yes even BJGE all looked better running behind that very same OL. Does the OL gather in a huddle and say - Hey it's that Maroney guy again, let's not block for him. Alright, good plan. Break!

BJGE looks better than Maroney? How the hell do you figure? Because he ran for a hundred yards that one time? Big deal. He ran for a full yard less per carry than Maroney did: contrary to the argument that you guys are trying to pull out of thin air, that's a *fact* which pretty clearly shows that Maroney is very effective when he's playing. Crappy running backs don't get 4.5 yards per carry. They just don't.

 

[supafly]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

3 quick points:

1.) I agree with your defense in the sense of there being a lot of Maroney bashing posts and few such posts for some other players. Sadly for the new guy, that wasn't what his post actually said, and he's kept defending it rather than just admitting error and moving on.

2.) While I'm not saying it's an identical situation, people were pummeling Cassel this past preseason and for the first few games of the season. The "mob rules" mentality of message boards is actually one of this medium's great weaknesses, not a strength.

3.) Pissing matches are also part of the life's blood of message boards, so don't hold back. Bring good points and that's really all most of us would ask of you, or of anyone else.

Cool, I can understand that.

I am in a happy medium anyway between the Maroney bashers, and Maroney lovers--which is where a lot of people probably are too, or should be. I agree that he has showed serious promise, but do feel that this very well could be his last chance if he performs poorly. His cap hit and upside, potential, are what's keeping him around. I think some people are just upset because he was a 1st rounder, and that is making them impatient to some degree. To answer the question of the OP, no, I do not think that our squad is ready to deal Maroney. I wouldn't be as shocked as some however, if a RB were taken. I think we have the luxury of not too many needs to fill, and some decent future talent out there--combined with a plethora of picks.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Hmmmmm.... your earlier take on this:



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/103723-jackson-cassel-hobson-survive-first-cutdown-page2.html#post983058

THAT wasn't justified, even though you were one of those doing it, but THIS is just A-OK.....

Many of us made mistakes with Matt and we were wrong and too critical because Matt never played a real game as a player and deserved a chance - LoMo has had his chances to shine around his annual glass injuries and there is no defending that.

Cassel was raw when he was criticized and that was not right as I and others have regretted saying, but after 3 years LoMo has not given most of us reason to expect anything more in 2009 than the usual he has shown the past few years which is mediocre games and maybe one decent game in the mix followed by his sitting on the bench with another injury which to me will be inevitable unless BB decides to make Taylor and Morris the primary running back,then LoMos chance of getting hurt get lighter but that wont happen since Lomo is still on top of the depth chart - for the last season I am betting.

 

[DW Toys]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

3 quick points:

The "mob rules" mentality of message boards is actually one of this medium's great weaknesses, not a strength.

Excellent point sir. You nailed it.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Many of us made mistakes with Matt and we were wrong and too critical because Matt never played a real game as a player and deserved a chance - LoMo has had his chances to shine around his annual glass injuries and there is no defending that.

Cassel was raw when he was criticized and that was not right as I and others have regretted saying, but after 3 years LoMo has not given most of us reason to expect anything more in 2009 than the usual he has shown the past few years which is mediocre games and maybe one decent game in the mix followed by his sitting on the bench with another injury which to me will be inevitable unless BB decides to make Taylor and Morris the primary running back,then LoMos chance of getting hurt get lighter but that wont happen since Lomo is still on top of the depth chart - for the last season I am betting.

Hello, My name is DW Toys. I was a Cassel abuser. Its been 7 months since I have abused his ability. I am now strait and clean and wish we had gotten more for him. Go figure!
DW Toys

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

BJGE looks better than Maroney? How the hell do you figure? Because he ran for a hundred yards that one time? Big deal. He ran for a full yard less per carry than Maroney did: contrary to the argument that you guys are trying to pull out of thin air, that's a *fact* which pretty clearly shows that Maroney is very effective when he's playing. Crappy running backs don't get 4.5 yards per carry. They just don't.

Nobody's claiming he's a 'crappy' RB. What Maroney has shown though are the following:

1. Lack of vision
2. Lack of urgency/burst to the hole
3. Lack of ability to stay healthy
4. Lack of toughness. IE the play where he tiptoed out of bounds instead of going for the 1st down marker last season.

It's a pretty weak argument to hang your hat solely on the 4.4 ypc stat. Know who else had a similar ypc his first 3 years AND similar career trajectory? Kevin Barlow. 4.63 YPC his first 3 years in the league. Always missed a few games each season. Where is he now? Probably bagging groceries at the local Walmart.

Kevan Barlow Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Maroney might make for a decent 3rd string RB, but has he lived up to the expectation for a 1st round pick? Not even close. He'd be lucky to turn out nearly as good a 3rd down back as Kevin Faulk.

In my recollection Maroney is also the only Patriot to receive criticism from the coaching staff who specifically mentioned there was 'less dancing' with the other Pats runningbacks. Obviously something is wrong with him. Can it be fixed? Who knows, but I'm not betting on it.

 

[apple strudel]

Man am I kicking myself for not getting in on this article earlier. What a horribly stupid trade idea. Carolina has 0 need for Maroney, and we're carrying the same number of RBs as last year - swap Taylor for Jordan and it's the same type of group. Oh boy.

 

[LeonPowe]

1. Lack of vision
2. Lack of urgency/burst to the hole
3. Lack of ability to stay healthy
4. Lack of toughness. IE the play where he tiptoed out of bounds instead of going for the 1st down marker last season.

Agreed. Number 2 has been especially frustrating for me to watch.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Nobody's claiming he's a 'crappy' RB. What Maroney has shown though are the following:

1. Lack of vision
2. Lack of urgency/burst to the hole
3. Lack of ability to stay healthy
4. Lack of toughness. IE the play where he tiptoed out of bounds instead of going for the 1st down marker last season.

It's a pretty weak argument to hang your hat solely on the 4.4 ypc stat. Know who else had a similar ypc his first 3 years AND similar career trajectory? Kevin Barlow. 4.63 YPC his first 3 years in the league. Always missed a few games each season. Where is he now? Probably bagging groceries at the local Walmart.

Kevan Barlow Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Maroney might make for a decent 3rd string RB, but has he lived up to the expectation for a 1st round pick? Not even close. He'd be lucky to turn out nearly as good a 3rd down back as Kevin Faulk.

In my recollection Maroney is also the only Patriot to receive criticism from the coaching staff who specifically mentioned there was 'less dancing' with the other Pats runningbacks. Obviously something is wrong with him. Can it be fixed? Who knows, but I'm not betting on it.

And for those first 3 years, Barlow was a very effective RB. I don't really care if Maroney's stocking groceries 3 years from now, to be honest. I care about how he can produce for us over the course of the upcoming season and, for his price tag, his production is worth it. When he's healthy, he's the best RB on the roster. If he gets hurt, as he probably will, then that sucks.

Has he lived up to his first round draft status? No, of course he hasn't, but once again, that's irrelevant at this point. The only thing that matters is how he can make the Patriots better this year. He is a cheap RB with big-play potential and durability issues. Pretty good for a $1.7M cap hit. Kevin Faulk is making over double Maroney's salary this year, so it's not like he's overpaid.

Instead of looking at Maroney in a rational, evenhanded, and utilitarian way, you're basing your opinion entirely on random crap that has little to nothing to do with how he's going to help the Patriots this year. Case in point: "he hasn't lived up to his draft status!" or "he doesn't hit the hole!" (seriously, how can a guy get 4.4 YPC if he's getting tackled behind the line every carry, as you claim. It's physically impossible). Where he was drafted doesn't matter anymore. It's simply a matter of what he brings to the table, how much he makes, and what the next-best available player can offer in his stead.

Basing judgments of a player on other subjective and meaningless criteria is the hallmark of a belligerent fan. If you think that overly-emotional sentiments like that have any place in player evaluation, then clearly you have no idea why Belichick is so good at what he does.

 

[Mogamedogz]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Maroney IS very good catching passes out of the backfield where he can use his speed and agility when no one is right in your face, but if you put him behind the LOS and expect him to power his way out of a negative gain then good luck and pray for him to get at least back to the LOS,a gain is not happening 95% of the time.

I agree. I think maroney's greatest value to this team would be as an eventual replacement for Kevin Faulk.

He is not a 3 down 15-20 carry per game back (IMO), but he could be a major play-maker in the passing game. I think their best bet would be to start have him working on his blocking and pass catching skills, then see if he has what it takes to make it in that role going forward.

If they could pick up a big power back late in the second/early in the third... that would be ideal. Andre Brown of N.C State could fit the bill.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

What some homers fail to answer is do you really think this 4.4 average would still be the average if LoMo was miraculously healthy for whole seasons at a time?

Lets see a 4.4 average hold up for 16 regular season games and normal amounts of carries and as a top depth RB as well - then you can say that 4.4 was numbers that were not based as a stat because he missed major portions of every season.

When Maroney plays like 6 games out of 16 and in those games that he does play he carries 15 times and you are boasting about a 4.4 - Get real homers,you are talking out of your arse

The fact that Molewisrocks even mentions Maroney's 11.1 yards average against arguably the worst defense in 2007 and maybe one of the worst teams this decade in the 07 Dolphins makes me piss in my pants with laughter - He was nowhere to be found when NE played the 08 Dolphins.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

I agree. I think maroney's greatest value to this team would be as an eventual replacement for Kevin Faulk.

He is not a 3 down 15-20 carry per game back (IMO), but he could be a major play-maker in the passing game. I think their best bet would be to start have him working on his blocking and pass catching skills, then see if he has what it takes to make it in that role going forward.

If they could pick up a big power back late in the second/early in the third... that would be ideal. Andre Brown of N.C State could fit the bill.

You could also add that Maroney is, IMO our best kick returner (as good as Hobbs) and therefore very dangerous on STs

Maroneys strengths are catching short passes out of the backfield and kick returns because he is very tough to catch or tackle once out in the open but if you have him behind the LOS and he is dead meat more often than not.

A Kevin Faulk replacement and a STs return ace would be reason enough to keep him in 2010 but if he has another lousy season at RB I think he is toast.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Instead of looking at Maroney in a rational, evenhanded, and utilitarian way, you're basing your opinion entirely on random crap that has little to nothing to do with how he's going to help the Patriots this year. Case in point: "he hasn't lived up to his draft status!" or "he doesn't hit the hole!" (seriously, how can a guy get 4.4 YPC if he's getting tackled behind the line every carry, as you claim. It's physically impossible). Where he was drafted doesn't matter anymore. It's simply a matter of what he brings to the table, how much he makes, and what the next-best available player can offer in his stead.

It's not at all physically impossible given Maroney's makeup.

Stuffed for 2, gain 5, stuffed for 2, hit the corner for 6, stopped for 3, break off a run for 9. What's the ypc? 4.5. Maroney's just not a North-South runner and it doesn't look like he ever will be. Sure he has speed to get to the corner if he gets the blocking, but he's also known to be indecisive and dance in the hole. His ypc may appear fine and dandy but his lack of consistency is his big weakness.

BTW I've never once said we should trade Maroney in this thread and that's because we wouldn't be able to get anything of value for him. If other teams in the league also share this opinion, what do you think the NFL thinks of Maroney's worth and thus his abilities as a player? Let's not sugar coat it, we won't get even a 2nd for Maroney and we'd be lucky to get a 3rd which we really don't need this year.

I'm not going to advocate trading Maroney as that doesn't make sense, but I'm not going to defend him blindly when his weaknesses are pretty obvious to anyone who looks at it objectively. The 4.4 ypc mantra that keeps getting touted just doesn't hold water.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

It's not at all physically impossible given Maroney's makeup.

Stuffed for 2, gain 5, stuffed for 2, hit the corner for 6, stopped for 3, break off a run for 9. What's the ypc? 4.5. Maroney's just not a North-South runner and it doesn't look like he ever will be. Sure he has speed to get to the corner if he gets the blocking, but he's also known to be indecisive and dance in the hole. His ypc may appear fine and dandy but his lack of consistency is his big weakness.

BTW I've never once said we should trade Maroney in this thread and that's because we wouldn't be able to get anything of value for him. If other teams in the league also share this opinion, what do you think the NFL thinks of Maroney's worth and thus his abilities as a player? Let's not sugar coat it, we won't get even a 2nd for Maroney and we'd be lucky to get a 3rd which we really don't need this year.

I'm not going to advocate trading Maroney as that doesn't make sense, but I'm not going to defend him blindly when his weaknesses are pretty obvious to anyone who looks at it objectively. The 4.4 ypc mantra that keeps getting touted just doesn't hold water.

That six play sequence that you just outlined is awfully good, actually. Never gets less than 2 yards, gets 5+ 50% of the time, and gets as many as 9? I'll take it. That's the point: no matter how you slice and dice it, 4.5 YPC is a good average. If a guy's getting stopped at the line half the time and running for 9 half the time versus getting 4.5 every carry, it changes the dynamic of when and how you use him, but either way it's a very good average.

I'm not saying that Maroney's an awesome RB or making excuses for him: I'm just saying that where he was drafted is irrelevant. He's the third highest paid RB on the roster, he has some durability issues, and he has the talent to more than justify his paycheck. What you did say in this thread was that BJGE looks better running behind the same line, which is simply not true.

 

[Rob0729]

What some homers fail to answer is do you really think this 4.4 average would still be the average if LoMo was miraculously healthy for whole seasons at a time?

Lets see a 4.4 average hold up for 16 regular season games and normal amounts of carries and as a top depth RB as well - then you can say that 4.4 was numbers that were not based as a stat because he missed major portions of every season.

When Maroney plays like 6 games out of 16 and in those games that he does play he carries 15 times and you are boasting about a 4.4 - Get real homers,you are talking out of your arse

The fact that Molewisrocks even mentions Maroney's 11.1 yards average against arguably the worst defense in 2007 and maybe one of the worst teams this decade in the 07 Dolphins makes me piss in my pants with laughter - He was nowhere to be found when NE played the 08 Dolphins.

Maroney played 13 games in 2006 (32nd in the league in rushing attempts, 31st in yards, and 20th in TDs), 14 games in 2007 (26th in the league in rushing attempts, 23rd in yards, and 18th in TDs), and 3 games in 2008 (stats don't matter because he only played 3 games). So let's not make it sound like the guy plays six games a season and rushed for less yards a season than most team's back up RBs. Other than last year, Maroney did play for most of the season every year and rushed at least to rank him in the top 32 in the top 32 teams. Yes, those attempts are considerably lower than guys in the top 5, but McDaniels and Belichick believed in the RB by committee approach.

You are doing the same thing you are accusing the homers are doing. You are throwing things out there without really having the facts to back it up.

Maroney has been a disapointment since he got here, but not an outright failure.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, the 10th leading RB in attempts in 2006 (Chester Taylor) carried the ball 18.9 times a game. In 2007, the 10th ranked guy in this category (Westbrook) averaged 17.4 carries a game. So if Maroney carried the ball 15 times a game, that is about the average.

The days of most RBs carrying the ball 25-30 times a game is gone. This past season, only 3 RBs averaged over 20 carries a game. Steve Slaton who was 10th in attempts averaged 16.75 carries a game this year.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

That six play sequence that you just outlined is awfully good, actually. Never gets less than 2 yards, gets 5+ 50% of the time, and gets as many as 9? I'll take it. That's the point: no matter how you slice and dice it, 4.5 YPC is a good average. If a guy's getting stopped at the line half the time and running for 9 half the time versus getting 4.5 every carry, it changes the dynamic of when and how you use him, but either way it's a very good average.

I'm not saying that Maroney's an awesome RB or making excuses for him: I'm just saying that where he was drafted is irrelevant. He's the third highest paid RB on the roster, he has some durability issues, and he has the talent to more than justify his paycheck. What you did say in this thread was that BJGE looks better running behind the same line, which is simply not true.

That was a very small sample sequence. The problem with Maroney is that on any particular set of downs, you don't get a reliable result, if he gets stuffed the first two times and it's 3rd down and long now his ypc doesn't matter a bit. His inconsistency means that Maroney is not the kind of RB you rely on to sustain drives. Morris when healthy is that kind of back. And hopefully Fred Taylor will be that kind of back but better.

Current RB pecking order:
1. Fred Taylor
2. Sammy Morris
3. Kevin Faulk
4. Maroney or BJGE or draftee. Let em fight it out in camp.