Logan Ryan and Alfonzo Dennard

getting even a 7th for Dennard would be unlikely IMO

Rob0729 said:

If he is traded at the of camp, it would be only be one of two reasons - last year damaged him in some way either mentally or physically and he is done or he shines in the preseason and someone overpays for him for him because they are desperate for a starting CB. If he is traded at the end of the preseason it will either be a boom or bust trade and doubtful anywhere in between. So either a 6th or a 7th or something like a 3rd.

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A 3rd for one year of a guy who isn't an elite player is pretty much an impossibility. If he's traded, it'll be for virtually nothing because the team was going to release him otherwise.

Oswlek said:

A 3rd for one year of a guy who isn't an elite player is pretty much an impossibility. If he's traded, it'll be for virtually nothing because the team was going to release him otherwise.

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Only an elite player could get a third rounder? Maybe the Pats should send a third rounder to Dallas for Dez Bryant. Sorry, but a third round is something that someone would give up for a young and upcoming player.

A third rounder is not likely, I am just throwing that out there as someone overpaying for him to pry him away from the Pats. But the guy was a rising player before this past year. If he can show that he is back on track and last year was because of injuries, someone might overpay for him.

But if he does rebound in the preseason, there is no way the Pats would trade him unless someone overpaid for him. If he looks like the 2013 Dennard in the preseason, do you really think Belichick will dump him for a 6th or 7th rounder?

If he plays like the 2013 Dennard he's likely to make the 53 because he'd likely be better than Logan Ryan. Thus my 1st post, that's what pre-season is for...picking your best 53.

So, a player who started for patriots and then spent a year as the 6th DB is worth a mid-level draft choice?

OBSERVATIONS
1) If Dennard is a starter quality player, the patriots would definitely not cut him to save a million dollars. The team would keep him and perhaps even extend him. If he is DEFINITE starter quality, that put him higher than both Ryan and Butler in the depth chart, and perhaps able to beat out Arrington this year or next (or Butler might).

2) Just because a player started doesn't mean he was any good; it means that he was better than the players below him on the depth chart. Who did Dennard start instead of? Ryan? OK, I'll stipulate that a healthy Dennard is a better outside corner than Ryan.

Dennard was so good? How good was he? He was so good that the #1 priority of the patriots in 2014 was to upgrade the secondary. Even signing Revis and Chung wasn't enough. Even after these two additions, with Dennard and Ryan in place to compete for the starting spot, the team signed Browner, and paid him a considerable salary in 2o14 (and will do so again in 2015).

It is clear that the PATRIOTS do not consider Dennard a starter on the outside or at nickel. It is also unclear whether Dennard is good enough to be the first off the bench. Ryan and Butler had that role in 2014. Who is Dennard better than?

A SIDE ISSUE
McCourty is not exactly 100% to be back. Perhaps, it will be necessary to move Ryan to safety.

BOTTOM LINE
Dennard should be given an opportunity in camp. We should have at least 6 corners in camp. I thinka late round draftee is likely again (as in 2014). The team will also consider whether Ryan is a backup safety (as in 2014). It seems that we have three backups who are on the team to play special teams: Ryan, Wilson and Ebner.

Rob0729 said:

Only an elite player could get a third rounder? Maybe the Pats should send a third rounder to Dallas for Dez Bryant. Sorry, but a third round is something that someone would give up for a young and upcoming player.

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Not one with only a single year remaining.

I understand what your point is, but even assuming Dennard has a terrific camp, the very top of his market - the very, very top - is a late 4th. More likely a premium payment is a 5th or early 6th. That's why I think he'd only be traded for peanuts, because if he plays well enough to warrant that kind of attention, he'll be on the team.

It is an interesting conversation, but I think keeping the trade amounts realistic would help, IMO.

mgteich said:

It is clear that the PATRIOTS do not consider Dennard a starter on the outside or at nickel.

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Given that Dennard has started 20 games for the Patriots, including four games just this past season, prior to Browner's appearance, I'd say that it's not clear at all.

Deus Irae said:

Given that Dennard has started 20 games for the Patriots, including four games just this past season, prior to Browner's appearance, I'd say that it's not clear at all.

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Perhaps we should re-sign Welker. After all, he started for us a couple of years ago.

In any case, there is no reason to trade Dennard.

Oswlek said:

Not one with only a single year remaining, particularly when he's coming off his worst season.

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If Dennard rebounds and is playing at a good starter level, you don't unload him for a sixth rounder. Who cares about next year. Browner is going to be 31 and Butler has never started except in spot duty. Why unload him him for nothing? Sixth rounders rarely do much on this team. Would you rather have a 2013 version of Dennard for one year or a Jemea Thomas (one of the Pats' sixth rounders in 2014 who didn't make the final cut for the 53 man roster and currently on his fourth team in one season) for as long as he last?

Hell, if he has a good year, his compensatory pick might be more than a sixth rounder and they had his contribution for the entire year.

You are better off keeping him and hoping for a team getting desperate before the trade deadline. If Dennard rebounds this preseason, you don't trade him unless someone overpays.

Rob0729 said:

If Dennard rebounds and is playing at a good starter level, you don't unload him for a sixth rounder. Who cares about next year. Browner is going to be 31 and Butler has never started except in spot duty. Why unload him him for nothing? Sixth rounders rarely do much on this team. Would you rather have a 2013 version of Dennard for one year or a Jemea Thomas (one of the Pats' sixth rounders in 2014 who didn't make the final cut for the 53 man roster and currently on his fourth team in one season) for as long as he last?

Hell, if he has a good year, his compensatory pick might be more than a sixth rounder and they had his contribution for the entire year.

You are better off keeping him and hoping for a team getting desperate before the trade deadline. If Dennard rebounds this preseason, you don't trade him unless someone overpays.

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Read the rest of my post.

Oswlek said:

That's why I think he'd only be traded for peanuts, because if he plays well enough to warrant that kind of attention, he'll be on the team.

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Even prior to adding that edit, I never once advocated trading Dennard, I only discussed the most likely scenario in which he'd be moved.

mgteich said:

Perhaps we should re-sign Welker. After all, he started for us a couple of years ago.

In any case, there is no reason to trade Dennard.

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Perhaps they should re-sign Welker, and perhaps they should not, but that's completely irrelevant to your comment, and my response, about Dennard.

Rob0729 said:

If Dennard rebounds and is playing at a good starter level, you don't unload him for a sixth rounder. Who cares about next year. Browner is going to be 31 and Butler has never started except in spot duty. Why unload him him for nothing? Sixth rounders rarely do much on this team. Would you rather have a 2013 version of Dennard for one year or a Jemea Thomas (one of the Pats' sixth rounders in 2014 who didn't make the final cut for the 53 man roster and currently on his fourth team in one season) for as long as he last?

Hell, if he has a good year, his compensatory pick might be more than a sixth rounder and they had his contribution for the entire year.

You are better off keeping him and hoping for a team getting desperate before the trade deadline. If Dennard rebounds this preseason, you don't trade him unless someone overpays.

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Let's understand your scenario
1) Dennard plays well in the preseason, but not well enough to beat out our 2 starters and Butler.
2) Unless someone "overpays", we should keep him on the inactive roster (Ryan would be active because of his special team play.
3) After a 2nd season as the patriots #6 corner, you would expect more than a 6th compensatory pick for Dennard?

I don't understand.

No way someone gives a 3rd for Dennard, a 6th would be fair, going around this, maybe a 5th.

If (big if) a team get all their starters injured in pre season games, a team that Dennard had a good game against in the past so they know him very well, then maybe a conditional 4th, with the Patriots shipping a late round pick, that's the most optimistic scenario I can see, and I like Dennard.

I agree that it's more valuable to us keeping him than getting a 6th or 7th unless they are very very confident in Butler.

mgteich said:

Perhaps we should re-sign Welker. After all, he started for us a couple of years ago.

In any case, there is no reason to trade Dennard.

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I know the analogy you are trying to make but come on. WW was at the end, at an age where the drop off usually starts, with a body that has taken a beating. AD is 25 and has a lot of mileage left.

The difference between WW now and 2 years ago is a lot different than AD 2 years ago than now. You could assume that AD will be better while anyone would surmise that WW would probably be worse. And considering we already know WW is worse, its not a great comparison.

mgteich said:

Perhaps we should re-sign Welker. After all, he started for us a couple of years ago.

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They would have kept Welker as a starter if he decided to take his contract. Now he is old and worn down from a long string of concussions. I don't know if it is the same thing.

Dennard is still young and has a lot of the skills to be a very good CB. We just don't know if his fall last year was a real regression or just injuries.

mgteich said:

Let's understand your scenario
1) Dennard plays well in the preseason, but not well enough to beat out our 2 starters and Butler.
2) Unless someone "overpays", we should keep him on the inactive roster (Ryan would be active because of his special team play.
3) After a 2nd season as the patriots #6 corner, you would expect more than a 6th compensatory pick for Dennard?

I don't understand.

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1.) I said returns to his 2013 form. That would make him competing with Browner for starter playing time. If he doesn't play well enough to be more than the 5th CB, he didn't play well in the preseason.
2.) If he returns to his 2013 form, he won't be on the inactive roster. If he is on the inactive roster, he is in my other scenario where he is either damaged physically or mentally and will not return to his 2013 form and will be cut or traded for a low pick.
3.) Never said that. I said if he returns to his 2013 form, he would get significant playing time and likely sign with someone in hopes to make him a full time starter which might get his compensatory pick to a fifth rounder. If he really rebounds in 2015, he might get a fourth but unlikely (hell, the Pats might re-sign him if he rebounds that much).

Rob0729 said:

1.) I said returns to his 2013 form. That would make him competing with Browner for starter playing time. If he doesn't play well enough to be more than the 5th CB, he didn't play well in the preseason.
2.) If he returns to his 2013 form, he won't be on the inactive roster. If he is on the inactive roster, he is in my other scenario where he is either damaged physically or mentally and will not return to his 2013 form and will be cut or traded for a low pick.
3.) Never said that. I said if he returns to his 2013 form, he would get significant playing time and likely sign with someone in hopes to make him a full time starter which might get his compensatory pick to a fifth rounder. If he really rebounds in 2015, he might get a fourth but unlikely (hell, the Pats might re-sign him if he rebounds that much).

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OK, I now understand our disagreement. You believe that Dennard 2013 would be at least as good as Browner. I strongly disagree with that assessment.

BTW, if Dennard were as good as Browner, why would you not extend Dennard with the idea of him starting in 2016.

mgteich said:

OK, I now understand our disagreement. You believe that Dennard 2013 would be at least as good as Browner. I strongly disagree with that assessment.

BTW, if Dennard were as good as Browner, why would you not extend Dennard with the idea of him starting in 2016.

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I never said that. I said the 2013 Dennard would push him for playing time at starter. There would be match ups where the 2013 Dennard would be better to start over Browner. I said this before thIS SEASON season and assuming Dennard was going to be the same guy he was in 2013 or better. It would be a match up thing. Dennard getting the smaller shiftier guys that Browner struggles with and Browner get the rest.

Again, I am not saying the 2013 Dennard is better or worse than Browner. He is just more suited to cover guys that Browner typically struggles with and visa versa.