Logan Ryan and Alfonzo Dennard

[BradyFTW!]

I think the point is regardless of AD's health which kept him off the roster, some posters think when healthy he is good enough to start in the NFL. Some dont.

Since he has done it in the past. I am going to go with he can. However, maybe its not this team given the grouping now assembled - BB's physical impact and MB's rise perhaps.

I think pretty much everyone would agree that if whatever was wrong with him last year is in the past, then he's a capable NFL starter. I may have missed someone disagreeing with that statement, but I think that's a consensus opinion here.

That said, I don't think it's at all a foregone conclusion that it is in the past. The solution to all of this is to accept that it's unknown for now and bring him to camp and see what he can do. If he's playing at his 2012 level, I think he makes the team. Hopefully he's capable of playing at that level.

The only alternatives are try to trade him at a time when he has basically zero trade value or cut him anyway, so keeping him around until you can see what he's capable of seems like the only sensible option.

 

[Bruins29]

I would agree. We have come a long way from the days of the Deltha O'neils. To have these types of problems in our backfield like what to do with AD and where to use Butler is refreshing change.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, and Dennard almost certainly wasn't. If that's the point that you're arguing for, then you're arguing for something that nobody's arguing against. I'm pretty sure everyone is in favor of bringing Dennard to TC and seeing if he can win a roster spot. That's exactly what TC is for. You bring him in, and either he wins a job or he gets cut.

The debate that Rob and I are currently having is re: the idea (and absurd one, IMO) that months before TC, with his 2014 non-season being the latest thing on his resume, someone would plausibly even consider trading a fourth rounder for the guy. I could see someone offering up a 7th, figuring that that's a worthy price to make sure you get him and get him ASAP rather than waiting to see if he gets cut and if he chooses to sign with you. Anything more than that, and I think all 31 other GMs would rather just take a flyer on this relatively deep CB draft class.

You are saying they would offer a seventh and you call my argument stupid? Why trade the guy then? His cap hit is relatively small and he has starter experience and prior to his offseason surgery he was a pretty decent starter. Why Belichick would give him up for so little is beyond me and he won't unless he shoulder is toast.

Don't forget Pat Chung went through a similar thing his last year here without injury and the Eagles gave him 3 years and $10 million. And after being the Pats' dog house in 2012 because a pretty decent starter last year.

I disagree with you about the availability of CBs (just ask last year's Jets). There are very few starting quality CBs in the league. Most teams are lucky to have even one. The 2013 Dennard could easily start on at least half the teams in this league. Maybe more. There is no guarantees a fourth or fifth round pick can even be a rotational guy.

If Dennard leaves the Patriots, odds are good that he will be a starter next year. If he returns to his 2013 form, people will be killing Belichick if he let him go for anything less than a 3rd (not saying that is what he will get and I don't think he will).

 

[Rob0729]

I missed all the posters here calling him a bum and stating we'd be lucky to get a 7th.

Strawperson much?

Hyperbole. Look it up. I was making a point by making a gross exaggeration.

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hyperbole

 

[BradyFTW!]

You are saying they would offer a seventh and you call my argument stupid? Why trade the guy then? His cap hit is relatively small and he has starter experience and prior to his offseason surgery he was a pretty decent starter. Why Belichick would give him up for so little is beyond me and he won't unless he shoulder is toast.

Don't forget Pat Chung went through a similar thing his last year here without injury and the Eagles gave him 3 years and $10 million. And after being the Pats' dog house in 2012 because a pretty decent starter last year.

I disagree with you about the availability of CBs (just ask last year's Jets). There are very few starting quality CBs in the league. Most teams are lucky to have even one. The 2013 Dennard could easily start on at least half the teams in this league. Maybe more. There is no guarantees a fourth or fifth round pick can even be a rotational guy.

If Dennard leaves the Patriots, odds are good that he will be a starter next year. If he returns to his 2013 form, people will be killing Belichick if he let him go for anything less than a 3rd (not saying that is what he will get and I don't think he will).

Yes, I am calling your argument stupid, in large part because it has exactly zero precedent behind it. You're arguing against all established NFL precedent based on your feelings.

Again, I've already issued the challenge that will resolve all of this. Answering this question would pretty much end this whole discussion: on what basis is Dennard worth orders of magnitude more in trade value than Akeem Ayers was just this past year? On what basis is he worth just as much in trade value as a healthy Aqib Talib was in 2012?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Hyperbole. Look it up. I was making a point by making a gross exaggeration.



https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hyperbole

Well at least you've admitted that you deliberately misrepresent arguments that you disagree with. And here I was, trying to discuss this whole thing in good faith.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Hyperbole. Look it up. I was making a point by making a gross exaggeration.



https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hyperbole

So rather than address the cogent reasons that Denny won't go as a high mid pick you fantasize instead you duck the argument and go for hyperbole. OK.

 

[Rob0729]

You're still dodging the only part of this argument that really matters, and tellingly so. On what basis is Dennard worth orders of magnitude more in trade value than Akeem Ayers was just this past year? On what basis is he worth just as much in trade value as a healthy Aqib Talib was in 2012?

I missed that part about Ayers. I should have ignored it because it is a stupid comparison.

Because Akeem Ayers was a huge bust in Tennessee. He had one very good years, but sucked two years ago and didn't even get on the field this year. So Dennard had one year like that. Ayers had two. If Dennard comes back next year and has another year like he had last year, then that is a pattern that cannot be ignored and needs to drop him exponentially.

Talib is a fairer example, but he also had been suspended, constantly injured, and a pain in the arse. But the Bucs were/are a stupid organization that makes stupid deals. Even at the time, everyone said that the Pats fleeced them. Once Talib showed what he could do, it was even more exaggerated.

 

[Rob0729]

Well at least you've admitted that you grossly misrepresent every argument that you disagree with as a matter of habit. And here I was, trying to discuss this whole thing in good faith.

Not really. I never said that. I am saying that people are dismissing what he did in his first two years and only focusing on last year. I used hyperbole to hammer that point.

And I tried to discuss this with you thinking you were intelligent enough to understand hyperbole. I guess we both grossly overestimated the person we were debating with.

 

[Rob0729]

So rather than address the cogent reasons that Denny won't go as a high mid pick you fantasize instead you duck the argument and go for hyperbole. OK.

When did I say high mid round? I said a fourth or a fifth. I said a low third "wasn't out of the question", but I guess I thought it was implied that if someone was stupid enough to overpay for him.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I missed that part about Ayers. I should have ignored it because it is a stupid comparison.

Because Akeem Ayers was a huge bust in Tennessee. He had one very good years, but sucked two years ago and didn't even get on the field this year. So Dennard had one year like that. Ayers had two. If Dennard comes back next year and has another year like he had last year, then that is a pattern that cannot be ignored and needs to drop him exponentially.

Talib is a fairer example, but he also had been suspended, constantly injured, and a pain in the arse. But the Bucs were/are a stupid organization that makes stupid deals. Even at the time, everyone said that the Pats fleeced them. Once Talib showed what he could do, it was even more exaggerated.

Ayers was not a huge bust in Tennessee. He was a capable-but-inconsistent football player who flashed inconsistent starter potential (he flashed more potential than Dennard did, but was definitely more inconsistent in flashing it), then got buried on the bench for reasons that everyone assumed were probably injury-related. Exactly like Dennard did. Out of curiosity, how many Titans games did you actually watch while Ayers played for them?

As for Talib, I'm glad that you outright stated that you think Talib is a fair-ish comp to Dennard. To put it bluntly, nobody who has even the faintest idea what they're talking about would even discuss those two players in the same sentence. I'm comfortable enough in that being a self-evident statement that I'm just going to leave it at that without elaborating.

 

[Rob0729]

Ayers was not a huge bust in Tennessee. He was a capable-but-inconsistent football player who flashed inconsistent starter potential (he flashed more potential than Dennard did, but was definitely more inconsistent in flashing it), then got buried on the bench for reasons that everyone assumed were probably injury-related. Exactly like Dennard did. Out of curiosity, how many Titans games did you actually watch while Ayers played for them?

As for Talib, I'm glad that you outright stated that you think Talib is a fair-ish comp to Dennard. To put it bluntly, nobody who has even the faintest idea what they're talking about would even discuss those two players in the same sentence. I'm comfortable enough in that being a self-evident statement that I'm just going to leave it at that without elaborating.

Ayers was a high second round pick who absolutely sucked the last two year here was there. He had a year and a half worth of sucking. Yes, part of his problems were injury related. And how does neither of us watching Titans' games make you more of an authority on him? Because you just know better. Maybe calling him a bust is overboard since Talib may have been more of a bust in Tampa since he was a fairly high first round draft pick, but he was a major disappointment. The Pats have had as productive second round picks as Ayers that people here have trashed.

I am saying Talib is fairish because both were productive starters for a period of time who have checkered pasts. Talib was very good his rookie year and was average after that (he was never anything special after his rookie year in Tampa until 2013). Also, both would be traded for the purpose of being fulltime starters (or at least competiting for that chance) while Ayers was stop gap filler for Chandler Jones. That is what I am talking about. The Talib that played in Tampa couldn't have started on this team and since he couldn't play nickel either, he would be fighting for 4th or 5th CB. He just rebounded his career in New England (in large part because he was misused in Tampa).

I never said that Dennard is as good as Talib and he will never be. I am comparing their situations. Not their players. Talib probably should have gone for a lot more if the Bucs had a competent GM.

 

[Rob0729]

One thing I did forget to mention about Dennard. One thing that hurt him with when he lost his starting job to Browner was that he doesn't play special teams. Both Ryan and Butler do. That put him in a bad spot when he lost his starting job and couldn't play the slot. It is tough to have back up CBs on the roster if they cannot play special teams.

 

[Oswlek]

There is no way in hell that anyone would give a 4th rounder for Dennard. A 6th would be a coup.

 

[Rob0729]

There is no way in hell that anyone would give a 4th rounder for Dennard. A 6th would be a coup.

If that is true, keep him. The 2013 Dennard is far, far more valuable than a sixth rounder. I would rather bring him to camp and let him show he can rebound from last year then take a sixth rounder for a guy that if he returns to his 2013 would be worth far more to this team than what you can get in the 6th round.

Unless the Pats get a 4th or 5th rounder, I don't see any way the Pats don't bring him back into camp. There is no downside in doing it. They save the same amount of money cutting him in September at the final cut down as it does cutting him today. Carrying the extra $1 million in cap money is worth giving him a chance to rebound.

 

[Oswlek]

If that is true, keep him. The 2013 Dennard is far, far more valuable than a sixth rounder.

Agreed. If he gets traded, it'll be for peanuts at the end of camp.

 

[Deus Irae]

There is no way in hell that anyone would give a 4th rounder for Dennard. A 6th would be a coup.

I've been a big Dennard backer, and I wouldn't give up a 4th for him with just the currently available information.

 

[Rob0729]

Agreed. If he gets traded, it'll be for peanuts at the end of camp.

If he is traded at the of camp, it would be only be one of two reasons - last year damaged him in some way either mentally or physically and he is done or he shines in the preseason and someone overpays for him for him because they are desperate for a starting CB. If he is traded at the end of the preseason it will either be a boom or bust trade and doubtful anywhere in between. So either a 6th or a 7th or something like a 3rd.

 

[PatsFan2]

I say great problem to have I wouldn't Trade either, when healthy Dennard is leagues better than Logan Ryan. I think Dennard was hurt all last year he look slow and stiff he didn't look like that in his first two years in the league. I think Dennard will have a bounce back year battling Malcom Butler for the #2 CB spot. As already stated Logan Ryan might be a nice back-up Safety down the road he might be better facing the ball and not with is back to it.

 

[Rob0729]

I say great problem to have I wouldn't Trade either, when healthy Dennard is leagues better than Logan Ryan. I think Dennard was hurt all last year he look slow and stiff he didn't look like that in his first two years in the league. I think Dennard will have a bounce back year battling Malcom Butler for the #2 CB spot. As already stated Logan Ryan might be a nice back-up Safety down the road he might be better facing the ball and not with is back to it.

The problem with Ryan and McCourty before them, they came from a zone system. I think both would be far suited for a zone system more. Now that the Pats have gone to man far more, they both need to be more center of the field type of players.

I think if Ryan does end up getting cut, I think he could go to a place like Tampa and do fairly well. Maybe not a solid starter, but a contributor.