Anyone Else Think Connor Barwin Is Overrated?

I think that Barwin is overrated. Today I have read that we will be lucky to have him left at 23, that he is an all-pro OLB and that he is a sure first year starter for us at OLB.

mgteich said:

I think that Barwin is overrated. Today I have read that we will be lucky to have him left at 23, that he is an all-pro OLB and that he is a sure first year starter for us at OLB.

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Yep! And he's also underrated, because I've read that he's an intriguing athlete without a position, probably a TE, and realistically worth a mid-round flyer.

The truth is surely somewhere in between.

mgteich said:

I think that Barwin is overrated. Today I have read that we will be lucky to have him left at 23, that he is an all-pro OLB and that he is a sure first year starter for us at OLB.

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Brace yourself for dabruinz and Box claiming know-it-all status and berating you for thinking Barwin is overrated as a 1st rounder.

How good is Connor Barwin at shedding blocks? Iam pretty sure shedding block is a very important thing for a LB, because if it wasnt that important, then every team will just use a more athletic CB/S as their linebacker.

As a pre-emptive strike:

Since we have six picks in the first 100, we can afford to take a chance on a 2-year project like Barwin at 34. I wouldn't do it, but I can understand the position.

I did a little google search about barwin and shedding blocks. Well...

Scout.com: Connor Barwin Profile

Barwin is a versatile player who has experience playing on both sides of the ball. He has a great frame; a bit undersized, but has a strong upper-body and is aggressive at the point of attack. He initiates contact off the snap and plays with great leverage. He has quick feet, savvy moves and is relentless off the edge. He has to shed blocks cleanly and be consistent defending the run. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com

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Yeah that last part seems to mean that he has to improve in defending the run and shed blocks cleanly. And under areas of improvement it mentions disengaging skills, which probally means shedding blocks.

maverick4 said:

The fact he has only played 1 year on D is a huge red flag.

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Why? Red flag for what? He has shown he can play the position.

PatsandTrojans55 said:

900


Thanks Bucky,
I will put the values in BOLD. Dabruinz is right about the Value chart being a guideline but if he thinks the Texans would trade pick 15 (valued at 1050 points) to the Patriots for pick 23 and 3rd round pick 89 (which both total 905 points) then he should become VP of operations for the Patriots stat.

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Why? THat would be a very fair trade. As Bucky pointed out, there was a trade for the 18th with a 26th and #89 and a sixth rounder. That is roughly equivalent to a 15th for a 23rd and #89. I guess we could toss in a sixth rounder for good measure but that is just a throwaway pick.

mesoslo said:

I did a little google search about barwin and shedding blocks. Well...

Scout.com: Connor Barwin Profile



Yeah that last part seems to mean that he has to improve in defending the run and shed blocks cleanly. And under areas of improvement it mentions disengaging skills, which probally means shedding blocks.

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NFL Draft Scout offers this assessment: "Uses his hands well to keep blockers away and shed to make tackles."

CBS Sports has partnered with them for this draft, NFL.com has used them for their draft profiles the past 2-3 seasons too. Here's Barwin's profile at the CBS site: Connor Barwin, Cincinnati, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football

spacecrime said:

Why? Red flag for what? He has shown he can play the position.

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How so? He is projected at OLB, he's never played that in his life. He played DE for one year. He is coming in more raw and unpolished than any other DE-to-OLB project. I also don't buy the argument that somehow playing DE more years makes a player less able to transition to OLB.

It would be helpful if you could list any defensive prospect that raw and unpolished (1 year total defensive experience, no experience at projected NFL position) and making a name for himself over the past 20 years. How many players are on that list? John Lynch, who else?

spacecrime said:

Why? Red flag for what? He has shown he can play the position.

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As Barwin continues to rise on prospect ranking lists, his name alone is now a red flag for the consistently logical maverick4.

Box_O_Rocks said:

NFL Draft Scout offers this assessment: "Uses his hands well to keep blockers away and shed to make tackles."

CBS Sports has partnered with them for this draft, NFL.com has used them for their draft profiles the past 2-3 seasons too. Here's Barwin's profile at the CBS site: Connor Barwin, Cincinnati, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football

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I dont know what is the proper technique when it comes to shedding blocks, but Iam sure it takes more than just hands to shed a block. CBs and safties have pretty good hands but I dont think a CB/safety will be able to shed blocks that easily. Remember when Ed hochuli said "the defender was just overpowered"? I think that was a patriot LB that was overpowered.

FOR THE LOVE OF SPORTS: Ed Hochuli says defender was just overpowered
the you tube video doesnt work though.

Iam just hoping that once barwin does get blocked he has the strength to shed it. He has the athletic ability to keep blockers away, but once he is engaged can he shed the block or collapse the blocker?

mesoslo said:

I dont know what is the proper technique when it comes to shedding blocks, but Iam sure it takes more than just hands to shed a block. CBs and safties have pretty good hands but I dont think a CB/safety will be able to shed blocks that easily. Remember when Ed hochuli said "the defender was just overpowered"? I think that was a patriot LB that was overpowered.

FOR THE LOVE OF SPORTS: Ed Hochuli says defender was just overpowered
the you tube video doesnt work though.

Iam just hoping that once barwin does get blocked he has the strength to shed it. He has the athletic ability to keep blockers away, but once he is engaged can he shed the block or collapse the blocker?

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Like every NE Linebacker I've watched, I saw Barwin stack and shed, and I've watched him struggle to get off the block. He'll need to get stronger and need to do a better job with his technique, but that's a given for his experience level. Part of what makes him good with his hands is his experience as a TE blocking, he's had to defeat defender's hands to get his own into their bodies to block them cleanly. The nice thing to read in his NFL Draft Scout profile is how coachable he is and what makes him so coachable.

It seems there is now a more general view that he could well be a late first round pick and the Cheifs may trade down for him if Curry is off the board

NFL Forum :: - Connor Barwin

Pro day recaps: Strong outings for Nittany Lions - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Box_O_Rocks said:

As Barwin continues to rise on prospect ranking lists, his name alone is now a red flag for the consistently logical maverick4.

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Logical flaws, eh? You keep quoting prospect ranking lists, yet unfortunately for you most of them have Barwin as a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Even the recent rankings, influenced by the "potential" of Barwin, don't have him higher than where the Pats pick. And yet you continue to think we would be LUCKY to get Barwin at #23?

You're insane. You don't even understand the most basic concepts behind this thread.

maverick4 said:

Logical flaws, eh? You keep quoting prospect ranking lists, yet unfortunately for you most of them have Barwin as a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Even the recent rankings, influenced by the "potential" of Barwin, don't have him higher than where the Pats pick. And yet you continue to think we would be LUCKY to get Barwin at #23?

You're insane. You don't even understand the most basic concepts behind this thread.

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well, its right in line with your player assessment capabilities

maverick4 said:

It would be helpful if you could list any defensive prospect that raw and unpolished (1 year total defensive experience, no experience at projected NFL position) and making a name for himself over the past 20 years. How many players are on that list? John Lynch, who else?

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Mav, how about we split the work: you come up with a list of offensive starters who were switched to defense as seniors and ended up leading their conferences in major defensive categories, and who had exceptional NFL measurables at their new positions. Then I'll take the next stage and sort out which ones made an impact as pros.

IOW, we're in largely uncharted waters here. You can't make much of a list of prospects like Barwin who succeeded or failed.

spacecrime said:

Why? THat would be a very fair trade. As Bucky pointed out, there was a trade for the 18th with a 26th and #89 and a sixth rounder. That is roughly equivalent to a 15th for a 23rd and #89. I guess we could toss in a sixth rounder for good measure but that is just a throwaway pick.

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Space,
Are you serious? Take off the rose colored glasses for 1 second. Are you saying trading pick #26 1st round, #89 3rd round, and #161 6th round (valued at 873 points) for pick #18 1st round (valued at 900 points)

Is the same or equivalent to pick #23 1st, #89 3rd round and #189 (valued at 921 points (if you as you put it throw in a 6th round pick but 905 if you don't add 6th round pick)
for pick #15 1st round (valued at 1050 points)?

Here's another look #23, 58 (valued at 1080) to Texans for #15 (valued at 1050)

So yes I see how the Texans would take pick #89 instead of the 3rd Patriots 2nd round pick #58 and give up over 100 points of value. Yes a fair deal indeed for all Patriots fans across the world.

Box_O_Rocks said:

Part of what makes him good with his hands is his experience as a TE blocking, he's had to defeat defender's hands to get his own into their bodies to block them cleanly.

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That would assume that he was a good blocking TE - which we have no evidence of either. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if he were a dominant TE, he wouldn't have been switched to DE. What you're saying makes sense on one level. On the other side of that argument, remember that TEs can't actually use their hands as much as defenders. So his "experience" using his hands might actually be something he has to overcome as he learns the proper OLB techniques.

I'm not saying I subscribe to this argument, but I think it's just as valid as your argument of being a TE actually helping. It's the same thing with coverage. Running a route is a VERY different skill from covering one because when you're running a route you know where you're going ahead of time while on defense you're reacting. Whichever argument makes sense to you probably depends on whether you like the guy as a prospect or not.

bucky said:

That would assume that he was a good blocking TE - which we have no evidence of either. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if he were a dominant TE, he wouldn't have been switched to DE. What you're saying makes sense on one level. On the other side of that argument, remember that TEs can't actually use their hands as much as defenders. So his "experience" using his hands might actually be something he has to overcome as he learns the proper OLB techniques.

I'm not saying I subscribe to this argument, but I think it's just as valid as your argument of being a TE actually helping. It's the same thing with coverage. Running a route is a VERY different skill from covering one because when you're running a route you know where you're going ahead of time while on defense you're reacting. Whichever argument makes sense to you probably depends on whether you like the guy as a prospect or not.

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Define "dominant" TE.

Barwin had 31 receptions as a junior, his predecessor at starter the year before had 35 (that same predecessor took his limited skill set into the NFCC game against Arizona and collected 10 receptions/2 TDs for the hapless passing attack of the Iggles). The way that reads, Cincinnati used Barwin in much the same way. Their starting TE who took Barwin's place had 18 receptions in 2008, of course a team with 2 1,000 yd receivers who also shuffled between four different QBs over the course of a 14 game season may not have gotten the same production out of each position.

As a pass rusher, Barwin's hand technique might be a little more developed than as a blocker, he'd have had to learn to defeat the jam at the LOS in order to get out into his routes and that skill is going to translate to defeating OL trying to get their hands on him. Recall that he was a Big East basketball player for a couple years, which probably contributes to his hand fighting skills. In terms of his hand technique for stacking and shedding run blocks, we'll have to see, I thought he wasn't too bad for a kid with his ears pinned back all the time when I watched him, there's one good look at him stacking & shedding against VT in the Orange Bowl on the youtube highlight clip. Perhaps an aberration, perhaps not.