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Anyone Else Think Connor Barwin Is Overrated?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by maverick4, Mar 24, 2009.

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  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Barwin had a great senior year but is no elite player at any position. By most accounts he is a great physical talent but super raw at DE, OLB, and TE, and on defense is bad at stopping the run or holding his position.

    The last time we drafted a very smart, high motor, athletic freak with raw skills was Ben Watson, and that hasn't panned out nearly as well as I would have liked for a 1st round pick.

    I would like to draft a proven football player with our Day 1 picks. It takes a ton of reps and experience to learn how to play intricate pro football, you can't just be a physical freak and learn how to play in a year or two.

    I think Barwin is good value after the 3rd round, and is only shooting up the draft boards because he smartly compared himself to Vrabel. In my opinion he is nothing like Vrabel. Pre-injury Vrabel was a stud against the run, a great timely pass rusher, not to mention one of the smartest football players Belichick ever coached. Barwin plays like Beisel against the run, is a good pass rusher, but is super raw and inexperienced.
  2. WhiZa

    WhiZa Rookie

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    At this point, any OLB in this draft is going to be a project. We can go back and say this player was overrated or this player had the ability to make the transition, but we just won't know until they hit the field.
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I disagree with this. This year's draft is loaded at linebacker, with several finished products who actually played ILB or OLB. These DE-to-OLB player types take years to convert.

    Bruschi and Vrabel did not blossom until they were about 27 years old.
  4. midwestpatsfan

    midwestpatsfan Rookie

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    What prospects are you talking about? I cannot think of one OLB or ILB prospect that does not have question marks. You have to look at it another way. What prospect do you put ahead of Barwin that has his upside? He may be raw, but he also showed some skills in that one year that you would have made you think he had been playing the position all through college. His versatility also has to be taken into account.

    Is he overratted, maybe a little. That being said, I have seen him go from a 5/6 round prospect by the pro scouts to a 2nd round prospect and maybe even a 1st round.

    For me personally, and while I am not as vocal on this site as someone like Box (I am trying to be more active) I have been high on Barwin for some time and just think that with the offseason the Pats have had, taking Barwin at 23 would make me happy. I just get nervous of the teams after 23 to 34 that would seriously consider Barwin.
  5. Ricey

    Ricey Rookie

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    As a first rounder. Yes

    As a second rounder. No. Great Value, Has all the qualities u look for. One thing ppl dont really take into account is that Barwin is not only a freak athlete but he has tremendous work ethic and from what I hear, extremely coachable. Not to mention he was pretty productive in his first year starting on Defense.
  6. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    like who?

    I betcha a dollar I can shoot every single one of them not named aaron curry down just like you did to barwin.........

    in his first year as a defensive player, he out played most of them.........

    he's a natural........

    the last time I can recall such a natural at any game is hakeem olajuwon
  7. MetalBleachers

    MetalBleachers Rookie

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    If we're looking for Barwin to tally 11 sacks and 70 tackles this year, then he is sorely overrated. I expect him to contribute right away on special teams, work into a rotation by midseason, and have some production by the end of the year, looking to make a huge jump his second year.
  8. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    The fact he has only played 1 year on D is a huge red flag.

    As for the "intangibles" you mentioned... Tedy Bruschi was the all time sacks leader when he graduated, a super competitive fiery leader, high motor, wanted to improve his combine results just like Barwin, basically off the charts intangibles AND college production... and he went in the 3rd round.

    Just because the guy is versatile doesn't mean anything. If he can't play at an elite or starter level at any position, that does not warrant a top-3 round pick.

    One issue the Barwin lovers hasn't addressed is almost every single scouting and draft report I've read says this guy is WEAK against the run, can't set the edge, and gets pushed back Beisel style. That is a no-no in a Belichick defense. We don't need another tight end.
  9. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    I'll fully admit to never having watched Barwin play much. I saw a couple Cincy games but I certainly wasn't focused on him.

    That said, based on the fact he is a converted TE with one year of playing DE and the Pats would want to convert him again to OLB, I would have to say talking about him as a first makes him way overrated. That is just too much risk for a first. I think the Watson comparison is spot on.

    For a late second, I'd say that type of player is worth the risk, but when you are talking late first early second for a big time conversion project with great measurables and "potential" like him, that is the definition of overrated.
  10. MetalBleachers

    MetalBleachers Rookie

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    Beisel played ILB. Different set of talents.
  11. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    who said that?
  12. Ricey

    Ricey Rookie

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    Barwin is way way more physically talented than Bruschi, also with so many teams switching to a 3-4, Barwin has the size and speed ratio that 3-4 teams look for in their OLB. Another thing is Bruschi coming out of college was a DT(a severely undersized one at that) if im not mistaking so ppl couldnt gauge what position he would playing at that time. Who would of thought all these years later Bruschi's natural fit was at Middle Linebacker as oppose to OLB or DE.
  13. tjones7

    tjones7 Rookie

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    I dont think any of the OLBs in this draft are good value at #23 (I expect Curry and E. Brown to be long gone, Orakpo as a DE).

    But If the Pats decide to take an OLB at #23 I would want them to be a high ceiling guy... either Conner Barwin or Michael Johnson from GT...Both players are still learning the position (MJ was a highly recruited TE and basketball player) and have amazing athletic, and mental capabilities.
  14. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Heck, I'm one of the folks dreaming of Barwin at #23, and even I think he's overrated! I'm not comfortable taking him that high, I just suspect it's necessary. And I'd gnash my teeth and do it because I'm greedy. I want that impact OLB who has to be accounted for on every play, and he looks like my best bet to get one.

    (BTW, weakness setting the edge against the run is definitely a strike against Barwin, but it's also a strike against English, Maybin, Johnson, Matthews, etc. Seems to come with the territory.)
  15. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    what intangibles? like the clay matthews crowd .... 'oooh, his dad was a football player!!!!' ..... alll the guy does is blitz, he cant cover to save his life........as a prospect at LB in the pats scheme, barwin is just as far along as matthews

    I just think he's a better prospect than matthews, sintim, cushing or anyone else who stands to be there later in the first round or early in the 2nd.......I do believe there will be a better prospect for some other position who will be there at 23, but I believe that once aaron curry is gone, that barwin is the next best prospect for OLB

    as for him being weak against the run, he might have gotten pushed around as a DE when an OT locks on, but he has no problems shedding blocks, and will excel at setting the edge as an OLB
  16. midwestpatsfan

    midwestpatsfan Rookie

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    Sintim is the only 3-4 OLB in this draft that is not a conversion project, so in a sense, they are all starting at square one. So you have to look at the skill sets that each one of these players posess and rank them accordingly. Again, I see Barwin as having the high skill set as well as the high motor, work ethic and versatility that put him ahead of many others. Barwin against the run, yes, he does have to work on that part of his game, but tell me what prospect does not have a part of their game that needs to be worked on. The difference is how willing and how hard will they work to do it. Barwin seems to crave learning a new skillset and will work hard to do it. Michael Johnson, on the other hand, does not seem to have the drive to make the conversion, that is why I do not like him.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First of all, you can't compare the round they went in like that. Why? Because the amount of talent varies from draft to draft. Bruschi has some issues coming out as well. And its why he fell to the 3rd round. Stop pretending like he didn't.

    WOW. Nothing like making stuff up. First of all, NONE of the sites i've looked at say that Barwin gets pushed back "Beisel style". That is you taking out your arse. Kinda like you did with McDaniels... Secondly, no one has said he isn't raw. He is. But he's much better against the run than you want to give him credit for.
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :rofl: Keep it coming mav.
  19. MetalBleachers

    MetalBleachers Rookie

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    BB sets a basic round value and sticks with it, but the development of the draft has to be a factor (e.g., taking Logan Mankins at 32 knowing that he wouldn't be available at 64). If BB sets Barwin's value at 3rd round (as some are saying), he may as well not even bother because Barwin will be gone.

    Hope for 34.
  20. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Overrated by who? Most of the rankings have him as a high to mid 2nd rounder, some maybe late 1st rounder.

    If he is drafted in the 2nd round, I would say that is just about right. I would not use #23 on him, I could use #34 on him but #47 would be just about right, IMO.

    There has been a lot of hype about him and I'm not even including people on this board. In about 2 weeks we will see the dust settle on many of these prospects and I don't think he will be taken in the 1st round.
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