Poll: Is Chris Long an upgrade from Chandler Jones?

[Soul_Survivor88]

You're dreaming if you think Chris Long is an upgrade. Chris has made good plays in every game and does
deserve a new contract. I think the Patriots will likely re-sign him than re-sign Shead to an inflated
contract.

Yeah, Long was playing like crazy those first three games of the season. Kinda led to inflated expectations.

I do think he's still good (for what we pay him) and I think the Chandler Jones trade made a lot of sense. But I've had to since rethink the premise of my thread

 

[Mack Herron]

In terms of pass disruption, which is not the only metric, Jones wins. Pats seem to lack players who can win 1 on 1.

 

[Ring 6]

Watching the Patriot's defense drives me nutty. They give every quarterback ample time to find
his receivers by rushing only three or four players.

Would you be happier making him find more open receivers faster, allowing more points, and winning fewer games? Rex Ryan can do that for you.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

In terms of pass disruption, which is not the only metric, Jones wins. Pats seem to lack players who can win 1 on 1.

Between him, Hicks, and Easely, I think having those players helped Jabaal Sheard increase his stats.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Then it's still a win if you include cap considerations.

Right. And mind you, I think purely from a pass rushing perspective it's probably a loss, but from overall play as a DE I think he makes up for that loss

 

[Jimke]

Between him, Hicks, and Easely, I think having those players helped Jabaal Sheard increase his stats.

Would you be happier making him find more open receivers faster, allowing more points, and winning fewer games? Rex Ryan can do that for you.

I'm not complaining about the end result. Just commenting that they are not a flashy defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Do people actually realize what they are watching?
The priority in this game was to stop LeVeon Bell. Even Simms noted that the Patriot staff was concerned about how big the Pitt OL was and if it would be a mismatch in the running game.
So what happens? We drop into coverage, give Landry Jones time to throw into coverage (where we had 1 pick and could have had 2-3 more btw) making him move the length of the field with short passes (other than 1 play where coverage just sucked). And guess what happens? Pittsburgh becomes confident in their passing game. Bell get minimized in the game plan. Landry Jones throws it 47 times, and LeVeon Bell carries it 21-81.
In the second half, Jones was 15/27 for 102 yards. The defense in the second half was tremendous.
Second half defense:
6 possessions
Points allowed 6
Avg start 31 yard line. 1 starting in Patriots territory.
3 of 6 drives had zero first downs, including the one after the fumble that started on the +43.
Passing yards 102 QB 15/27-102
Rushing yards 54
Total Yards 156
Net yards, net of penalties 126
Yards gained in final 4 drives, 3,7,-3,29 total 36 yards in 21 plays.

Someone please explain to me why their is anything negative at all to say about the defense.

 

[SalemPats]

No, but in terms of value, yes

 

[luuked]

It is also about the economics of pass rushers and the economics of how the Pats do business.

In the Michael Holley book he quotes Matt Chatham..

I wish I could upvote this again and again and again. What usually goes under in this entire stupid conversation about edge rushers are the batshit insane economics right now as well as the fact that those upper tier pass rushers are usually highly specialized players that do what they do amazingly well but are weak in a lot of other basic tasks.

To a certain degree I'd rather have a couple of above average flexible players on defense for the price of one elite pass rusher. Because that makes your team difficult to prepare for as you don't know what you will get at any given matchday. When you play Denver you are playing exactly the same team again and again. They are great at what they are doing but if a team can put a wrench in it somehow they are amazingly lost.

Being flexible (with good players) gives you better odds to survive the war of attrition that is a football season than having a great but pretty static team.

 

[patfanken]

Do people actually realize what they are watching?
The priority in this game was to stop LeVeon Bell. Even Simms noted that the Patriot staff was concerned about how big the Pitt OL was and if it would be a mismatch in the running game.
So what happens? We drop into coverage, give Landry Jones time to throw into coverage (where we had 1 pick and could have had 2-3 more btw) making him move the length of the field with short passes (other than 1 play where coverage just sucked). And guess what happens? Pittsburgh becomes confident in their passing game. Bell get minimized in the game plan. Landry Jones throws it 47 times, and LeVeon Bell carries it 21-81.
In the second half, Jones was 15/27 for 102 yards. The defense in the second half was tremendous.
Second half defense:
6 possessions
Points allowed 6
Avg start 31 yard line. 1 starting in Patriots territory.
3 of 6 drives had zero first downs, including the one after the fumble that started on the +43.
Passing yards 102 QB 15/27-102
Rushing yards 54
Total Yards 156
Net yards, net of penalties 126
Yards gained in final 4 drives, 3,7,-3,29 total 36 yards in 21 plays.

Someone please explain to me why their is anything negative at all to say about the defense.

Right on point, Andy. You reminded me that with the exception of the Miami game, the Pats D in the 2nd half has been particularly effective. And after 7 games could be a pattern that we should be looking at more closely. Thanks for doing the work, I'm too lazy to do most of the time.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

I have started to feel confidence in the second half defense that I used to feel back in the Bruschi days. It used to be that once they get to halftime and made adjustments they would come out and play even better. Like the first half was just a trial run. We were missing those adjustments (or maybe just the players) for a while between 09-13 but now when I'm watching games, I keep finding myself thinking "(Opposing team) better score as much as they can right now, cause once the second half hits they're not going to do nearly as good as they have." The Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and Bengals games all felt like that to me

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Jones is playing better in the Cardinal's defense than he would in the Patriots because it's a better fit. Jones played well for the Patriots but his responsibilities are different in the Cardinal's defense. The Patriots do not play a pressure defense like the Cards do. Jones is a good player who is playing better than he would in the Patriots. Rushing was never Jone's issue. He's weakest in holding up against the run. He's not required to do that as much for the Cards. Would I have loved to keep him, yes. Would I have paid him top defensive rush money to only rush in situational football, no.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Jones is playing better in the Cardinal's defense than he would in the Patriots because it's a better fit. Jones played well for the Patriots but his responsibilities are different in the Cardinal's defense. The Patriots do not play a pressure defense like the Cards do. Jones is a good player who is playing better than he would in the Patriots. Rushing was never Jone's issue. He's weakest in holding up against the run. He's not required to do that as much for the Cards. Would I have loved to keep him, yes. Would I have paid him top defensive rush money to only rush in situational football, no.

Jones is definitely playing in a fast, more aggressive defense that plays into his strengths. He's playing extremely well in his contract year, and at the rate he's at, he's sure to get a great contract. I'm proud of him, and wish nothing but the best!

 

[captain stone]

Do you mean how many points allowed is a reasonable metric to determine how effective a defense is?

There are several trends below. Lets see if other posters can pick them up.

Points Allowed Rank- Yards Allowed Rank
2000- 17th - 20th
2001- 6th- 24th
2002- 17th- 23rd
2003- 1st- 7th
2004- 2nd- 9th
2005- 17th- 26th
2006- 2nd- 6th
2007- 4th- 4th
2008- 8th- 10th
2009- 5th- 11th
2010- 8th- 25th
2011- 15th- 31st
2012- 9th- 25th
2013- 10th- 26th
2014- 8th- 13th
2015- 10th- 9th
2016- 4th-14th

One trend I noticed is that we haven't been top-10 in both points allowed/yards allowed during the same season in almost 10 years.

 

[Ring 6]

One trend I noticed is that we haven't been top-10 in both points allowed/yards allowed during the same season in almost 10 years.

2015 says hi

 

[JMC00]

Yards gained in final 4 drives, 3,7,-3,29 total 36 yards in 21 plays.

And 11 plays and 29 yards of that was steelers last drive when the Pats were allowing easy yards to kill clock and the steelers had to convert a 4th down on that drive to keep it going.

 

[Ring 6]

And 11 plays and 29 yards of that was steelers last drive when the Pats were allowing easy yards to kill clock and the steelers had to convert a 4th down on that drive to keep it going.

true.
Another reason why you can use stats to evaluate football.
There is nothing to segregate the importance of a play, series or situation

 

[RobertWeathers]

One trend I noticed is that we haven't been top-10 in both points allowed/yards allowed during the same season in almost 10 years.

A big trend is that only twice in 17 years was their yards allowed ranking lower or equal to their points allowed one.

The other one is that they ranked in the top 10 in PA 13 out of 17 seasons.

I'm looking at TO rank and Red Zone rank as well and how it correlates.

 

[Ring 6]

A big trend is that only twice in 17 years was their yards allowed ranking lower or equal to their points allowed one.

The other one is that they ranked in the top 10 in PA 13 out of 17 seasons.

I'm looking at TO rank and Red Zone rank as well and how it correlates.

TO is crucial.
Red zone rank not so much, because not all TDs are scored in the red zone.
I think fans get mixed up on this. Red zone defense is critical, when you are in the red zone and can be game changing, but in the bigger picture, if you win and are not allowing a lot of points, its a conversation piece.

 

[FourierSeries]

One trend I noticed is that we haven't been top-10 in both points allowed/yards allowed during the same season in almost 10 years.

2015.

Are you trying to set a record for most erroneous comments on this forum?