Poll: Is Chris Long an upgrade from Chandler Jones?

[DarrylS]

This type of argument has come up year after year after year, BB does not care about sacks, he cares more about setting the edge.. it is a different philosophy, while sack numbers seem sexy difficult to argues with the results of our philosophy 6 & 1.

 

[varjao]

Chris Long was not signed to be the main rusher, a star player or something like that. If the expectation was that, then it's a mistake. He is part of a group and can contribute, he is over 30 and he is generating pressure but he is being held sometimes and overall we are missing a guy that can go straight after the QB, then the other guys will show up much more. The stolen 1st round draft pick among some failures in past drafts (Easley) is hurting this positional group and I'm more inclined to trade Jimmy G if the price is right. Long term this team is going to suffer the effects of this lack of young impact players coming in to rebuild the defense.

 

[Ring 6]

This type of argument has come up year after year after year, BB does not care about sacks, he cares more about setting the edge.. it is a different philosophy, while sack numbers seem sexy difficult to argues with the results of our philosophy 6 & 1.

Of course BB cares about sacks. Setting the edge is run defense.
He would love to have a DE get 20sacks. Love it. But he isn't going to put a guy out there to play his own game in order to do it. It's about team defense. Here is an example. Dwight freeney used to used the spin move on probably half of his plays. Run or pass didn't matter. His only job was to rush the passer and he was literally playing his own defense by himself.
He would never do that here.
To varying extents other teams give pass rushers that freedom. BB does not believe in it because his first priority is team defense.

 

[DarrylS]

Of course BB cares about sacks. Setting the edge is run defense.
He would love to have a DE get 20sacks. Love it. But he isn't going to put a guy out there to play his own game in order to do it. It's about team defense. Here is an example. Dwight freeney used to used the spin move on probably half of his plays. Run or pass didn't matter. His only job was to rush the passer and he was literally playing his own defense by himself.
He would never do that here.
To varying extents other teams give pass rushers that freedom. BB does not believe in it because his first priority is team defense.

It is also about the economics of pass rushers and the economics of how the Pats do business.

In the Michael Holley book he quotes Matt Chatham..

This is what we started to do: We slowly accumulated winning stat guys as opposed to the high-sack, high-interception guys,” former Patriots linebacker Matt Chatham says. “Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel. Those guys are way more valuable if they get eight sacks rather than sixteen. Dominating the edge, getting on the tight end, blowing up wide receivers and never letting them get into the pattern. That’s way more valuable than sixteen sacks. “I think that the world thinks that the sixteen-sack guy is more valuable, but the Patriots don’t think that, and you can get into the economics of this: The sixteen-sack guy costs twice as much as the other guy. And once you get to a certain point, it’s saturation. It’s just sixteen plays and when you play five hundred snaps, it’s not that important. It just isn’t. Who are the best rerouters among outside linebackers? Who are the best edge-setters? Does anyone in the media know that?”

 

[aluminum seats]

he is being held sometimes

Like every other defensive player on the planet.

I think it's sort of homerish for the board to be raving about how much we love Long, his motor, this is great, blah blah blah the first couple of games and then shift to silence when he starts to disappear. I wasn't sure he was playing yesterday, and it's not like a CB where that's a good thing.

We all knew that for this year losing Jones would be a net loss. The trade was driven by a longer view that ultimately it would be an overall gain to trade one year of Jones for X, Y & Z. The hope was that guys like Long would step up. Sheard has faltered a bit not being able to play in Jones' shadow too.

Ninkovich is still rounding into form, and the defense overall is solid. But the pass rush at this point is a concern--it's no mystery why 3rd down is a struggle. As a certain point, you need somebody to make a play.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

This type of argument has come up year after year after year, BB does not care about sacks, he cares more about setting the edge.. it is a different philosophy, while sack numbers seem sexy difficult to argues with the results of our philosophy 6 & 1.

Why do homers keep patronizing us about sacks? No one is asking for nonstop, highlight reel plays. It just seems like through 7 games, mediocre QBs are getting lots of time to make throws, and as a result, convert on 3rd down.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

So far it feels like a lateral move

 

[ausbacker]

Why do homers keep patronizing us about sacks? No one is asking for nonstop, highlight reel plays. It just seems like through 7 games, QBs are getting lots of time to make throws, and as a result, convert on 3rd down.

Opponents are converting on 3rd down at 41.9% (39/93) good for 21st in the NFL however, teams are converting on 4th down at 22.2% (2/9) or good for 4th in the NFL. Keep in mind, the Patriots have played more games than some of the teams above them so their ranking could drop slight. Mind you, the Pats are 4th in the NFL for PPG at 15.3 so read into that what you will.

 

[Ring 6]

It is also about the economics of pass rushers and the economics of how the Pats do business.

In the Michael Holley book he quotes Matt Chatham..

That isn't economics that's defensive philosophy.
If you seriously think that bill belichick tries to have less success on the field so he can pay guys I don't know what to tell you.

 

[DarrylS]

That isn't economics that's defensive philosophy.
If you seriously think that bill belichick tries to have less success on the field so he can pay guys I don't know what to tell you.

Never said or implied what you utter here.. it is "also" about________. I do not think BB does anything on the field to lessen the Pats chance of success.. everything is calculated.

You read it your way, I read it mine..

Bill does not value a guy with a high sack total the way other coaches do.. not that complicated, my eyeball tells me he prefers a multi talented guy vs. a specialist.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Opponents are converting on 3rd down at 41.9% (39/93) good for 21st in the NFL however, teams are converting on 4th down at 22.2% (2/9) or good for 4th in the NFL. Keep in mind, the Patriots have played more games than some of the teams above them so their ranking could drop slight. Mind you, the Pats are 4th in the NFL for PPG at 15.3 so read into that what you will.

Do you mean how many points allowed is a reasonable metric to determine how effective a defense is?

There are several trends below. Lets see if other posters can pick them up.

Points Allowed Rank- Yards Allowed Rank
2000- 17th - 20th
2001- 6th- 24th
2002- 17th- 23rd
2003- 1st- 7th
2004- 2nd- 9th
2005- 17th- 26th
2006- 2nd- 6th
2007- 4th- 4th
2008- 8th- 10th
2009- 5th- 11th
2010- 8th- 25th
2011- 15th- 31st
2012- 9th- 25th
2013- 10th- 26th
2014- 8th- 13th
2015- 10th- 9th
2016- 4th-14th

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Opponents are converting on 3rd down at 41.9% (39/93) good for 21st in the NFL however, teams are converting on 4th down at 22.2% (2/9) or good for 4th in the NFL. Keep in mind, the Patriots have played more games than some of the teams above them so their ranking could drop slight. Mind you, the Pats are 4th in the NFL for PPG at 15.3 so read into that what you will.

That's fine. All credit to our defense then. I'd rather just see them get off the field more quickly, to offset time of possession and give our offense as many oppotunities to score as they need.

Last night, the Pats only had the ball 4 minutes in the third quarter.

Might seem like nitpicking to you, but it could prove costly to this team down the road

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

No.

and that is not even counting that Jones is way younger

 

[Gronkowski123]

Why do homers keep patronizing us about sacks? No one is asking for nonstop, highlight reel plays. It just seems like through 7 games, QBs are getting lots of time to make throws, and as a result, convert on 3rd down.

well said, chiuba.

only rushing 3 certainly doesn't help chris long..

 

[Ring 6]

Never said or implied what you utter here.. it is "also" about________. I do not think BB does anything on the field to lessen the Pats chance of success.. everything is calculated.

You read it your way, I read it mine..

Bill does not value a guy with a high sack total the way other coaches do.. not that complicated, my eyeball tells me he prefers a multi talented guy vs. a specialist.

That's all fine but your comment was it was about economics. The economics are a side effect. Other teams use players differently and value them that way. If other teams valued all-around players BB wouldn't eschew them because of cost

 

[Nikolai]

So far it feels like a lateral move

Then it's still a win if you include cap considerations.

 

[BelichickFan]

Chris Long is irrelevant to it.

4 years of Joe Thuney >>>>>>>> 1 year of Chandler Jones.

That's not factoring in what Mitchell might do or the cap savings from this year or the solid play of Long.

 

[Ring 6]

That's fine. All credit to our defense then. I'd rather just see them get off the field more quickly, to offset time of possession and give our offense as many oppotunities to score as they need.

Last night, the Pats only had the ball 4 minutes in the third quarter.

Might seem like nitpicking to you, but it could prove costly to this team down the road

I'm not sure how this board turned into this but for some reason there is an expectation that everything must be perfect in every game or it's a sign of doom in the future.
To double down we must be excellent at things that schemes must choose to favor vs each other. We must be perfect at eliminating any big plays with a great conservative approach but while we are at it we should generate enormous pressure with an aggressive scheme.
Literally winning isn't good enough and winning while allowing a TD a game over 5 weeks.

0, 16, 13, 17, 16

I do not understand what is wrong with that.

Fun fact 85 bears points allowed through 7 games 105
16 patriots points allowed through 7 games 107

Highest to lowest
Pats. 24,21,18,16,16,13,0
Bears 28,24,19,10,10,7,7

I bet all those bears fans were complaining about how crappy their defense was right?

 

[Jimke]

You're dreaming if you think Chris Long is an upgrade. Chris has made good plays in every game and does
deserve a new contract. I think the Patriots will likely re-sign him than re-sign Shead to an inflated
contract.

 

[Jimke]

That's fine. All credit to our defense then. I'd rather just see them get off the field more quickly, to offset time of possession and give our offense as many oppotunities to score as they need.

Last night, the Pats only had the ball 4 minutes in the third quarter.

Might seem like nitpicking to you, but it could prove costly to this team down the road

Watching the Patriot's defense drives me nutty. They give every quarterback ample time to find
his receivers by rushing only three or four players.