ATippett56
Pro Bowl Player
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For starters, put Joe Vellano on waivers.Aside from griping about who saw what, exactly what is being proposed we do differently that would improve the run D?
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.For starters, put Joe Vellano on waivers.Aside from griping about who saw what, exactly what is being proposed we do differently that would improve the run D?
Huh? Jones is a DE not a LB. Are you saying he was misused his entire career?After 5 pages, of arguing where Jones was lining up, one thing is still clear to me regardless of whether Jones was one gapping or two gapping or was a five technique or whatever - The Pats did not put him in the best position to succeed on Sunday. The almost the entire second half he played a 3-4 DE when he is still best suited for an OLB in the 3-4 scheme whether he was one gapping, two gapping or whatever at DE.
Where would you play him?In fact, I don't think they put the entire defense in position to succeed. Collins was wasted as a 3-4 ILB and he looked bad because of it.
This is 100% wrong. Nink played every single snap of 34. He was taken off the field in sub because Hightower played instead of him.Nink spent a huge amount of time on the bench because he really doesn't have a position in the 3-4.
2 which were Nink and Hightower.I think he is better suited for OLB in the 3-4, but how many OLBs can you play?
We didn't ALL kill Schiano because you don't design an entire scheme in all 16 games around what one player does best. We will play a lot of man, and we will play a lot of zone, which is just what we should be doing.He is more of a 4-3 WLB if anything. They played a lot of zone with Revis playing 5-10 yards off the line whether he was covering Wallace or not (didn't we all kill Schiano for getting a Ferrari and never driving it over 40 MPH by playing zone defense with Revis). Revis is best suited to be a press man coverage CB lining up on the line of scrimmage. The only person I can think of who benefitted from the schemes they ran on Sunday was Hightower.
The base defense is exactly the same as the 43 they used last year, but they have shifted the DL and LBs. Put Ninks hand on the ground lined up exactly where he is and tell me what you have.The Pats have been building a 4-3 attack style, man defense for the last few years. Now they are trying to play to a two gap 3-4 zone defense (at least a lot of the time) for the most part.
No disrespect but if you don't understand the game plan how can you judge it? The results were bad, but thats not the same thing.As much as people want to kill the offense and McDaniels' play calling, I thought the defensive game plan was 1,000 times worse. The Pats are an opponent specific game plan team, but Sunday it looks like they didn't even scheme for the Dolphins and wanted to force their 3-4 defense schemes.
We get it, you hate the backup DT who was forced to play a lot because of injuries. Do you have anything constructive to add?For starters, put Joe Vellano on waivers.
Post #96.We get it, you hate the backup DT who was forced to play a lot because of injuries. Do you have anything constructive to add?
OK that was constructive, but not a good idea. We would never get near a QB.Post #96.
Huh? Jones is a DE not a LB. Are you saying he was misused his entire career?
Where would you play him?
This is 100% wrong. Nink played every single snap of 34. He was taken off the field in sub because Hightower played instead of him.
2 which were Nink and Hightower.
We didn't ALL kill Schiano because you don't design an entire scheme in all 16 games around what one player does best. We will play a lot of man, and we will play a lot of zone, which is just what we should be doing.
The base defense is exactly the same as the 43 they used last year, but they have shifted the DL and LBs. Put Ninks hand on the ground lined up exactly where he is and tell me what you have.
What you have is a 43 with the DL overshifted to the strong side, and the LBs shifted weak. Thats it, nothing more to see.
No disrespect but if you don't understand the game plan how can you judge it? The results were bad, but thats not the same thing.
I really don't care about your amateur analysis since the Seattle Seahawks were the number one defense last season primarily utilizing the 4-3 under front. Second, the New England Patriots would not be utilizing a defensive tackle as a defensive end on third and long scenarios. Third, if the New England Patriots with five former first round picks and one former second round pick in the front seven can't stop the run, the 2015 NFL Draft awaits.OK that was constructive, but not a good idea. We would never get near a QB.
Fifth, I might have overstated Nink not having a position, but the Pats played 3-4 in sub packages and he saw only 47% of the plays. He doesn't have a position in sub packages in the 3-4. He might not in a four man front sub package either, but he played 90% of the snaps last year.
There is no such thing as a 3-4 sub package. On Sunday, the Pats played predominantly a 3-3 nickel and some 4-2 nickel and 3-2 dime. Nink played in the 3-2 dime (and in the jumbo packages), but not in the nickel packages. In the nickel, Hightower took his place, regardless of whether we ran a 3 or 4-man front. Hightower did pretty well in that spot, so I don't see a problem with that. Regardless, the 3-4/4-3 dichotomy is vastly overplayed this week.
Regardless, the 3-4/4-3 dichotomy is vastly overplayed this week.
Show me someone who has reviewed the tape and said that Jones was playing 2gap defense all day.First, considering every analyst from Greg Bedard to whoever else I have heard or read totally disagrees with your assessment of how they used Jones on Sunday, maybe you shouldn't talk about me not understanding the game plan. The only person I have seen who agrees with your analysis is Vrabeljr.
Jones is a 43 DE. In a 34 scheme that gives him the responsiblities of a 43 DE he is a 34 DE.Second, Jones is absolutely an OLB in the 3-4. If you compare him to 3-4 players from back in the Dynasty days, he is most comparable to Willie Mac. McGinest was a 3-4 OLB and never put his hand in the dirt unless they went into a four man front. Everyone in the world other than you and Vrabeljr believe Jones is miscast as a 3-4 DE other than in certain situations.
I don't agree. You are paying 11 players to be a team defense. Revis is a damn good zone corner. The only difference is the impact he can have in zone vs man but you have to consider the best D to stop the opponent, not the best D for one player because of his paycheck.Third, maybe I misspoke about Revis and Tampa. I agree you don't scheme around one player (although you can make a case to do it for a guy like Revis). What you don't do is pay big bucks to get Revis if you are going run a primarily a zone defense. It is a waste of money and a waste of his talent.
Again, its the Patriot defense, not the Revis defense. They have to put the team in a position to succeed not just Revis. Mankins was a better run blocker than pass blocker. Were we not putting him in a position to succeed by passing?Fourth, the Pats did not put him in a great position on Sunday because he was mostly playing 5-10 yards off the line and he is still a guy who can play press man with a guy like Wallace. And he was doing it when Wallace was on the other side of the field since Revis didn't follow him. They played more zone than man on Sunday.
There is no such thing as a 3-4 sub package.Fifth, I might have overstated Nink not having a position, but the Pats played 3-4 in sub packages and he saw only 47% of the plays. He doesn't have a position in sub packages in the 3-4. He might not in a four man front sub package either, but he played 90% of the snaps last year.
That would be fine if we had their players. We don't.I really don't care about your amateur analysis since the Seattle Seahawks were the number one defense last season primarily utilizing the 4-3 under front.
What does what they do on 3rd and long have to do with whether the base defense could rush the passer?Second, the New England Patriots would not be utilizing a defensive tackle as a defensive end on third and long scenarios.
Which is exactly why your idea is a bad one.Third, if the New England Patriots with five former first round picks and one former second round pick in the front seven can't stop the run, the 2015 NFL Draft awaits.
That would be fine if we had their players. We don't.
What does what they do on 3rd and long have to do with whether the base defense could rush the passer?
Which is exactly why your idea is a bad one.
You don't have a freakin' clue what you are talking about. Chandler Jones can't rush the passer? Vince Wilfork can't play the one technique? Dominique Easley can't play the three technique? Sealver Siliga had more sacks last season than Red Bryant.That would be fine if we had their players. We don't.
What does what they do on 3rd and long have to do with whether the base defense could rush the passer?
Which is exactly why your idea is a bad one.
First, where did I say Jones played in a two gap all game? I said every analyst who broke down the game that I have seen including Bedard said he was misused as a 3-4 DE. They all said he is too small for the position.
Second, Willie McGinest would most likely still play a 3-4 OLB. His strength like Jones is being an edge rusher and setting the edge on rushing downs. Those are both McGinest's and Jones' strengths and are wasted as a 3-4 DE with an OLB lining up next to him.
Third, Revis is arguably the best press man cover corners in NFL history. He might be a good or great zone cover corner, but be is elite press zone cover CB. If they want to use Revis off coverage in the zone, there were several CB on the market who could have come close to Revis in that area for far less. Few if any CBs can play press man like Revis. And we all talked about if you put Revis man on man on a receiver, you can shut down a third of the field and allow the Pats' the luxury to send an extra man on a pass rush or move the coverage to other players. If you are not taking advantage of his man press coverage abilities, you are wasting his talents. If you want to do zone coverage they could have gotten Alterraun Verner (a great zone coverage CB) for $26 million for four years and spent money to beef up other areas of the team.
Fourth, taking advantage of Revis' man cover skills is not building a defense to suit Revis. It is building a defense to take the most advantage of the skills your players have. Something that the Pats usually do. The thing about Revis is that you have a special press man coverage guy. You utilize that. Chandler Jones strengths are as an edge rusher and setting the edge on running downs, you utilize him that way. That used to be the Patriots' way. They were never about trying to fit square pegs into round holes, they were about putting their players in the best position to succeed.
I know it was one game and Jones could be outside and Revis could be playing press man on Sunday, but I felt they did not utilize the talent they have to the best of their abilities and had some of their best players in roles that did not maximize their talent including Revis, Jones, and Collins (although it is a little soon to call Collins one of their best talents on defense).
Get back to me when you want to communicate like a grown up instead of a dbag.You don't have a freakin' clue what you are talking about. Chandler Jones can't rush the passer? Vince Wilfork can't play the one technique? Dominique Easley can't play the three technique? Sealver Siliga had more sacks last season than Red Bryant.
You're wrong and you were wrong about the New England Patriots pass happy tendencies that only lead to losses.Get back to me when you want to communicate like a grown up instead of a dbag.
The 34 we play today is not the 34 we played years ago.
BB transitioned from a defense with 3 300lbers and 4 in the 250-270 range to one with 5 in the 250-270 range and 2 300lbs a few years ago because of the change in the game.
He isn't going backward, and he isn't going to pretend a 260 lb guy is 300lbs.
If you agree he wasn't playing 2 gap then you agree it wasn't the old 34.
What it is, is the concepts of the 43 that had 2 300lbers and 2 260lbers, stemmed into a 34.
The position Jones plays is the same in the current version of 43 or 34.
That is why if you think Jones is being misused, then you must think he was being misused as a 43 DE.
McGinest would be playing DE because the RDE position has the responsibilities of the 43 RDE.
If you want to think that a defense should play man all day every day because they have a good man corner, thats fine, I disagree. Its about the team defense, not one player. I fail to understand your logic that if you don't use a player a certain way every play he has no value.
By the way, you do understand that Jones was 'setting the edge' on running plays, and was rushing from the edge on passing plays, right? What do you think he was doing?
What do you want him to do? His role is the same in this defense as it has been since he arrived here. The fact that other players are aligned differently seems to be clouding our understanding of this.
Well, right. I'm definitely fine with Jones lining up at a 3-4 olb spot considering how he played there in the preseason. I just don't know if guys like siligna, Vellano and Chris Jones are capable of playing well and stopping the run in a 3-4 front.Jones plays the 5 technique and 3 technique depending on alignments, back in 2012 he was primarily a 5 technique over the past 2 years he has done more of both. This article provides a good breakdown of Jones and the Colts defensive scheme.
http://coltsauthority.com/2014-articles/free-agent-profiles-de-arthur-jones.html
Chandler has been used as a 5 technique end in the base and a 3 technique DT in sub packages so he is doing a lot of the things his 337lb brother is doing, that should not be the case.
The biggest issue with this scheme is basically they want to have the 49ers 3-4 defensive front with Hightower as Brooks, Mayo as Bowman, Collins as Willis, and then Jones they want him to be Justin Smith and Aldon Smith at the same time and that is not possible. If Belichick wants to run a 3-4 the only way to do it is to concede that Jones, Hightower, and Ninkovich will not all be on the field together in a base.
They could run this front:
LDT-Vince Wilfork-Chris Jones-Joe Vellano
NT-Sealver Siliga-Vince Wilfork
RDE-Dominique Easley-Zach Moore
LOLB-Donta Hightower-Rob Ninkovich-Darius Fleming
LILB-Jerod Mayo-Donta Hightower
RILB-Jamie Collins-Jerod Mayo
ROLB-Chandler Jones-Rob Ninkovich-Michael Buchanan
This might actually work; the key is to get Easley healthy enough to play 70% of the snaps.