The misuse of Chandler Jones week one at Miami

[hovis]

I'm not sure why we're arguing about whether Jones did or did not line up at 5-tech in 34's and whether or not he 2-gapped. If he makes a fast enough read, it'd be nearly impossible to tell what his pre-snap gap responsibilities were. Plus, I guarantee Patricia mixed it up in terms of techniques and gapping based upon the situation. And overall, they've always done things *like* this with Jones. While this may be a new wrinkle they tested, they've always moved him around.

We all seem to agree that Jones didn't live up to our expectations. Maybe the better question is, why? Was our scheme, or was it Miami's scheme and execution? Maybe he just got outplayed on Sunday. Or, maybe the DC was trying to test his limit's and found them.

I'm on board with those that say he should be the "Elephant" in the 34; but I don't mind some early season tinkering by the DC.

 

[aussie_patriot]

I don't mind it being tested, even though I disagree with it in principle based on personnel, but to not adjust at any point when it clearly isn't working baffles me. It isn't Madden where you are stuck with a 3-4 playbook, surely adjustments need to be made in-game when things aren't working. Miami did it with Edelman and took him right out of it.

 

[Ring 6]

Feel free to copy some plays in to show that it isn't true. You are wrong, you should go back and watch the game again.

I have. Jones does was not playing 2 gap. It's pointless to argue with you if you can't accept a fact or don't understand 2gap discipline so have a nice day.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Great thread. It would be even better if somebody got hold of the all-22 and went to work for us.

What's so funny about all these people upset about the 3-4 we played on Sunday is that these are the same people 4-5+ years ago that kept saying "We need to play a 1-gapping 3-4, not BB's stupid old fart 2-gapping 3-4!" Now we're playing a 3-4 where the RDE is 1-gapping and the LDE is usually 1-gapping and people are all up in arms.

I said it before and I'll say it again, we didn't get ran all over because we played a 3-4. We got ran all over because our LDE sucked and LBs did a terrible job at shedding blocks and hitting gaps. Mayo had one of the worst games of his career.

That's part of the challenge with the 1-gapping 3-4 (although this was a hybrid). With 1-gapping ends, the ILBs have greater gap responsibilities. If the 5-tech plays an outside technique on the tackle, the ILB on that side is responsible for the B-gap, leaving the other ILB (generally the Mike) as the player who needs to step-up to shed and tackle, if there is a win by any OL. This is particularly problematic for an inside zone, where the ILB on the 5-tech side needs to stay home until the RB commits. When your 3-tech is weak (Vellano) or small and inexperienced (Easley), that becomes even more problematic, as the Mike now has support responsibility for 3 gaps, which means that a strong zone runner can pick his hole in a way that gives the Mike poor leverage, such that shedding the block is much, much harder. Put Kelly at 3-tech and the problems aren't as apparent.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

The thing is even when the Pats were a two gap 3-4 team exclusively, they frequently had one or both of their DEs one gap. That really hasn't changed.

I don't recall them 1-gapping both 3-4 DEs on running downs before this year, but I could be wrong. Still, I need to see the game tape to get a sense of the extent to which Easley and Jones had 2-gap responsibilities on certain plays. I thought I saw that with Jones at least once, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

The reason it's called "5-technique" is because the DE lines up at the 5 spot, which is the outside shade of the tackle. It's impossible for Chandler Jones to have 2 gaps if he's playing 5-tech DE unless the TE comes to his side, which case our SAM LB will come to his side to cover that gap, which means Jones is back to 1 gapping again.
I tried to make a diagram but the formatting keeps breaking.

The Pats have 2-gapped from the 5-tech plenty in the past. There is a bit of outside-in leverage to the technique, but it happens. The Sam seldom takes the C-gap, as BB usually likes the bigger guy setting the edge on the TE, but it has been done. There are definitely times when the 5-tech, 3-4 DE 1-gaps, even sometimes coming across the tackle and filling the B-gap. (I believe Jones did this sometimes, but I was in too much of a "Yay! Football!" celebratory mood Sunday to take too strong a stand on what I saw in terms of at-the-snap technique.

You don't live in New England do you? I think every media person who covers the team is in agreement that Jones was not used right. I saw Jeff Howe on tv he spoke about it. Read Mike R. espn Boston he also wrote about it. Comcast did a break down the misuse of Jones. Fans on this board mostly all agree that he was used wrong.
Sort of like this story
As New England's Week 2 matchup with the Vikings approaches, we'll continue to take a closer look at the Patriots defense -- especially its front seven (or front six in nickel packages), and how it is able to defend the run.

The nearly 200 yards the Dolphins mustered on the ground in their 33-20 Week 1 win seemed to come almost at will and helped allow Miami to control the game throughout the second half.

The Patriots captain on the defensive line, Vince Wilfork, said the team needed to get better in that phase and believed that it will. But how?

One way, of course, would be to execute better fundamentals in the areas of shedding blocks and tackling. Players have admitted since Sunday's performance that both of those things could be polished.

Another would be to potentially tinker with the scheme. The Patriots ran a 3-4 look for much of Sunday's contest, often utilizing Wilfork in the middle with Joe Vellano, Dominique Easley and Chandler Jones as defensive ends.

In a 3-4, typically the linemen are big and athletic and able to take on multiple blocks. In particular, the ends are frequently asked to "two-gap," meaning they can take on a block and make a play to either side of said block, or either "gap."

The prototypes at the position -- former Patriots end Ty Warren (6-foot-5, 300 pound), Texans star J.J. Watt (6-5, 290 pounds), San Francisco's Justin Smith (6-4, 285 pounds) and Jets’ Muhammad Wilkerson (6-4, 310 pounds) -- are space eaters who could also get to the quarterback.

While Jones is extremely athletic and a talented pass-rusher, there were times on Sunday when he was sealed off by Dolphins offensive linemen in the running game.

Asked what made Jones a good fit at end in a 3-4, Patriots defensive coordinator Matt Patricia touted Jones' versatility and his ability to be effective regardless of the scheme.

"I think the ability for all our guys on the front and the back end to be able to play in multiple different positions would obviously help us week-in and week-out based on what we see as our best avenue to try to defend what the opponent is doing," Patricia said. "Certainly a guy like Chandler who is an athletic, smart guy who can handle different positions for us allows us to have that flexibility."

At 6-5, 265 pounds, Jones is lighter than the above 3-4 end prototypes. It bears watching whether or not the Patriots continue to play him in that role, or if they use him more as a 3-4 outside linebacker or as a defensive end in a 4-3 setup. If defensive lineman Chris Jones -- who missed Sunday's game due to an ankle injury -- is able to return to the field soon, that may give the Patriots more flexibility, allowing Chandler Jones to play outside with more frequency.

No matter how he's used, Patricia explained that the Patriots would only play Chandler Jones in spots where the team believes he could be successful.

"We’re going to try to find the best position for our guys and put them in the position that they can handle and we feel comfortable that they can get the job done," Patricia said. "We’re certainly trying to put them in the right position to help the entire structure of the defense to try, like I said, to combat what the offense is doing."

Phil Perry serves as a general reporter for Comcast SportsNet, mainly covering the New England Patriots. Follow Phil on Twitter here.
The stat from last year Jones only had 1 sack rushing from inside and the rest came from the outside enough said!

Your appeal to authority utterly fails. That Comccast analysis is downright remedial by Patsfans standards. Even Reiss realizes that that description of prototype 3-4 DEs was outdated by the end of the previous decade.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't recall them 1-gapping both 3-4 DEs on running downs before this year, but I could be wrong. Still, I need to see the game tape to get a sense of the extent to which Easley and Jones had 2-gap responsibilities on certain plays. I thought I saw that with Jones at least once, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

It is mostly one DE one gapping, but I think there were times when both did. But I may be speaking out of turn about both DE one gapping.

 

[Brady6]

I have. Jones does was not playing 2 gap. It's pointless to argue with you if you can't accept a fact or don't understand 2gap discipline so have a nice day.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2014...e-shift-beyond-rob-ninkovich-vs-dolphins.html

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Here's some screenshots I managed to grab of Jones at 3-4 RDE 5technique from the limited amount of film that is out there currently.

The only time he was ever playing inside the Tackle was on 3rd and 5 or longer, which is what we would do in the 4-3 with him anyway.

That second screenshot is probably not relevant to the larger discussion, as it looks like a passing down with Tannehill in the shotgun. However, it is interesting and is an alignment that would have had us besides ourselves with enthusiasm in the pre-season. Nink and Jones are at 5-tech, 3-4 DE, Easley is at 1-tech, and Hightower is setup as a rush OLB. Not sure where Collins is hiding, but those guys should be able to do some damage before the season is over.

 

[Kontradiction]

2 gapping and getting double teamed are not the same thing. You can't infer that Chandler Jones was 2-gapping just because Miami decided to dedicate the LT and LG to him.

Jones was two gapping. Come on now. You're a knowledgeable football fan. Surely you saw it. The run that Moreno broke on his side of the LOS is a perfect example of two gap discipline. Unfortunately, it's also a perfect example why Jones should not be two gapping. I saw it, others saw it, Reiss saw it, PatsPulpit saw it, and I'm pretty sure you saw it too.

 

[mayoclinic]

According to Pats Pulpit's film review, the Patriots did, indeed, have Chandler Jones two gapping

FAIL

That is not 'film study'

Someone also needs to teach Doug Kyed what "film review" means:

http://nesn.com/2014/09/patriots-film-review-3-4-defense-didnt-work-against-dolphins/

There's not a single example of film review in the article.

 

[Kontradiction]

Someone also needs to teach Doug Kyed what "film review" means:

http://nesn.com/2014/09/patriots-film-review-3-4-defense-didnt-work-against-dolphins/

There's not a single example of film review in the article.

I never take Kyed's analysis seriously anymore. He built an article last year centered around how Duron Harmon didn't allow a single touchdown in 2013 based on his "film review" when Harmon allowed a TD to Tamme in the Broncos game. I remembered that off the top of my head while Kyed did extensive "film review", and he still got it wrong.

His film review was so extensive that he missed this play.

 

[Ring 6]

My basic understanding of the difference is:
A 5-technique 3-4 DE lines up right over the tackle, and in the two-gap is responsible for the B and C gaps to either side of the tackle.

I think this is where a lot of the confusion is coming up.
A 5 tech is playing outside leverage and responsible for runs outside the T. A 2gap DL is playing head up and must engage and control the blocker and be responsible for the gap on either side on them.
Frankly, the difference in the run game is minor, because the OT isn't just standing there, he is trying to block the DE. as a 5, if it is an inside run, the DE must fight back inside, which will be very difficult to do. Since the player is fighting back inside based upon the way the OT approaches the block, it can look similar to a 2gap technique. The primary goal of the 5 tech in run defense is to NEVER get 'hooked'. The rest of the scheme is based upon that DE never getting turned in, and that he will have a very difficult time getting to the B gap, inside the T. B gap runs are not 5 tech failures, but C gap definitely are and are somewhat inexcusable.
In a 2gap tech he is responsible for both the B and C and the scheme takes into account he is responsbile for a more difficult task and lowers the expectations by having another player also responsible for each of those gaps. (Thats the basic idea of a 2 gap. 2 players are responsible for each gap)
Again whether you are playing a 5tech or playing 2 gap on the OT, it looks similar once the T tries to execute his block.
The major differences are that in 5 tech vs 2 gap you weaken the B gap to own the C gap, and more importantly, you give the DE a better opportunity to rush the passer by starting from outside leverage.

 

[ATippett56]

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2009/2/12/757415/football-101-defense-techn

 

[rochrist]

The reason it's called "5-technique" is because the DE lines up at the 5 spot, which is the outside shade of the tackle. It's impossible for Chandler Jones to have 2 gaps if he's playing 5-tech DE unless the TE comes to his side, which case our SAM LB will come to his side to cover that gap, which means Jones is back to 1 gapping again.

I tried to make a diagram but the formatting keeps breaking.

From the little I've been able I've been able to stand to rewatch, he was, as you say, shading the outside shoulder of the tackle. On running plays, they were moving him to the outside and the RB would cut up underneath him where there were consistently large holes.

 

[rochrist]

Aside from his roughing the passer penalties, Chandler Jones didn't play poorly. So I would like to know the basis of Bedard saying that. We didn't get run on off tackle, we got ran on up the middle and left sides of the line.

I disagree. I just rewatched a bunch of plays in which Jones was steered to the outside the the RB cut up right through the hole left behind.

 

[ATippett56]

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/1/4787546/the-seahawks-and-multiple-defensive-fronts

The New England Patriots have the personnel to run a 4-3 under defense:

Siliga - Wilfork - Easley - Jones

Collins - Hightower - Mayo

 

[Rob0729]

After 5 pages, of arguing where Jones was lining up, one thing is still clear to me regardless of whether Jones was one gapping or two gapping or was a five technique or whatever - The Pats did not put him in the best position to succeed on Sunday. The almost the entire second half he played a 3-4 DE when he is still best suited for an OLB in the 3-4 scheme whether he was one gapping, two gapping or whatever at DE.

In fact, I don't think they put the entire defense in position to succeed. Collins was wasted as a 3-4 ILB and he looked bad because of it. I think he is better suited for OLB in the 3-4, but how many OLBs can you play? He is more of a 4-3 WLB if anything. Nink spent a huge amount of time on the bench because he really doesn't have a position in the 3-4. They played a lot of zone with Revis playing 5-10 yards off the line whether he was covering Wallace or not (didn't we all kill Schiano for getting a Ferrari and never driving it over 40 MPH by playing zone defense with Revis). Revis is best suited to be a press man coverage CB lining up on the line of scrimmage. The only person I can think of who benefitted from the schemes they ran on Sunday was Hightower.

The Pats have been building a 4-3 attack style, man defense for the last few years. Now they are trying to play to a two gap 3-4 zone defense (at least a lot of the time) for the most part.

As much as people want to kill the offense and McDaniels' play calling, I thought the defensive game plan was 1,000 times worse. The Pats are an opponent specific game plan team, but Sunday it looks like they didn't even scheme for the Dolphins and wanted to force their 3-4 defense schemes.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm also a little confused about what people are complaining about.
Last year we played Jones on the LT playing outside technique, Nink on the RT, and DTs on the Gs, and often shifted one over the C.
This year, we moved the LDT over the RT and the LDE outside of him on the TE. Then we took the LOLB and moved him from the TE to over the G.
If, as is being (IMO incorrectly) argued and we had Jones 2 gap on the LT then that would mean we committed him MORE to the run, and MORE to the inside run, which is where we were hurt.
We played the exact same 7 players that we would play in the 43, and they were aligned almost identically as a group of 7 (LDT and LDE slide out, and LOLB slides in to go from 43 to 34).

Aside from griping about who saw what, exactly what is being proposed we do differently that would improve the run D?

 

[Ring 6]

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/10/1/4787546/the-seahawks-and-multiple-defensive-fronts

The New England Patriots have the personnel to run a 4-3 under defense:

Siliga - Wilfork - Easley - Jones

Collins - Hightower - Mayo

The league has moved to a pass heavy league. That defense would have the worst pass rush in the NFL.
That is the issue. We need 2 43 DE types on the field to rush the passer.

Now, in certain circumstances, vs certain teams (and Minn could be one) using this alignment at time would make sense, but not against many teams and certainly not as a primary base.

 

[Kontradiction]

From the little I've been able I've been able to stand to rewatch, he was, as you say, shading the outside shoulder of the tackle. On running plays, they were moving him to the outside and the RB would cut up underneath him where there were consistently large holes.

They were moving Jones pretty much at will against the run. Same with Wilfork and Vellano (who was one-gapping more than either of them). Out of the three of them, only Wilfork is capable of consistently playing in two-gap discipline.