Would you give up a 2nd for Leonard Williams?

[Ring 6]

Straw man

Your entire argument is basing evaluation on pff and pff sucks.

 

[Snooky97]

Given the Pats current cap/roster situation, it would be either keep Flowers OR acquire Williams.

There’s always a way... could back load the contract or front load it

 

[maineman209]

There’s always a way... could back load the contract or front load it

The structural outlines of a contract aren't the issue. It's the real numbers of the cap, and the roster, and for the positional groupings within the roster.

The Pats have $18.1m in cap space to start 2019 (Miguel's number).

Williams would immediately hit the cap for $14.2m.

While there appear to be ways to increase cap space, not all of those that have been suggested are realistic - either financially for the player, or logistically for the roster.

Then there are the expenses that most folks haven't accounted for:
.... in-house free agents (22 of them)
.... the 12-man draft class

There really isn't "always a way" that still makes sense for the team.

 

[Joey007]

Your entire argument is basing evaluation on pff and pff sucks.

Your entire argument is based off nothing except “I’m Andy and I’m right because I said so.” So I’m not sure I really care. If you’re too lazy to prove your point then there’s no argument to this.

 

[maust]

Your entire argument is based off nothing except “I’m Andy and I’m right because I said so.” So I’m not sure I really care. If you’re too lazy to prove your point then there’s no argument to this.

This is Andy you are talking about, there's always an argument to whatever 'this' happens to be at any given moment. Another thing we can be assured of is his inevitable victory will be declared not won.

 

[Joey007]

This is Andy you are talking about, there's always an argument to whatever 'this' happens to be at any given moment. Another thing we can be assured of is his inevitable victory will be declared not won.

I’m humored watching the back and forth arguments most of the time. I usually know better not to take the bait

 

[RobertWeathers]

The structural outlines of a contract aren't the issue. It's the real numbers of the cap, and the roster, and for the positional groupings within the roster.

The Pats have $18.1m in cap space to start 2019 (Miguel's number).

Williams would immediately hit the cap for $14.2m.

While there appear to be ways to increase cap space, not all of those that have been suggested are realistic - either financially for the player, or logistically for the roster.

Then there are the expenses that most folks haven't accounted for:
.... in-house free agents (22 of them)
.... the 12-man draft class

There really isn't "always a way" that still makes sense for the team.

Any thoughts people have about the Pats loading up on free agents in the offseason should leave them where they are.

IMO with the exception of QB, OL, CB, RB and maybe LB (although they need help but aren't old there) they are going to undertake a significant youth movement at the unsaid positions.

 

[maust]

. I usually know better not to take the bait

When it comes to that he actually is a master

 

[Ring 6]

Your entire argument is based off nothing except “I’m Andy and I’m right because I said so.” So I’m not sure I really care. If you’re too lazy to prove your point then there’s no argument to this.

What do you want my opinion to be based upon other than what my opinion is?

 

[Joey007]

What do you want my opinion to be based upon other than what my opinion is?

You’re not really backing this one up with anything. You’re just discrediting the sources I had without having any of your own.

It wasn’t even about his PFF stats honestly, you could tell by watching that week 2 Jets game that he was quite horrible in that particular game.

You were initially telling me that I was basing Gilmore struggling in 2016 by getting beat by Chris Hogan a couple times. And I brought up an example to show you that there was more than one instance of him struggling that year.

 

[Ring 6]

You’re not really backing this one up with anything. You’re just discrediting the sources I had without having any of your own.

I am stating my opinion of gilmores play in 2016.
I am saying that stats from PFF have always proven useless so they would do nothing to sway my opinion.

It wasn’t even about his PFF stats honestly, you could tell by watching that week 2 Jets game that he was quite horrible in that particular game.

I watched that game and do not agree.

You were initially telling me that I was basing Gilmore struggling in 2016 by getting beat by Chris Hogan a couple times. And I brought up an example to show you that there was more than one instance of him struggling that year.

I can only infer what you are basing your opinion on by what you say.
You said you remember chris hogan catching a pass. That’s was the extent of your comment at the time. (Now you say it’s 2) that particular okay was not a Gilmore coverage issue it was a miscommunication where Gilmore expected a safety over the top.
That play has zero impact on my opinion of gilmores ability.

You proceeded to reply that your opinion was based upon some guy who wrote an article using PFF stats. That article has no impact on my opinion of gilmore.

It seems like you think people just throw opinions out there with no reasoning behind them so you can find a guy who used PFF and call that a gotcha.
I trust my own judgment of players far more than I trust pff or “remember that play” comments.
You seem to want to substitute someone else’s opinion for having your own. That’s not for me.

 

[Joey007]

I am stating my opinion of gilmores play in 2016.
I am saying that stats from PFF have always proven useless so they would do nothing to sway my opinion.



I watched that game and do not agree.


I can only infer what you are basing your opinion on by what you say.
You said you remember chris hogan catching a pass. That’s was the extent of your comment at the time. (Now you say it’s 2) that particular okay was not a Gilmore coverage issue it was a miscommunication where Gilmore expected a safety over the top.
That play has zero impact on my opinion of gilmores ability.

You proceeded to reply that your opinion was based upon some guy who wrote an article using PFF stats. That article has no impact on my opinion of gilmore.

It seems like you think people just throw opinions out there with no reasoning behind them so you can find a guy who used PFF and call that a gotcha.
I trust my own judgment of players far more than I trust pff or “remember that play” comments.
You seem to want to substitute someone else’s opinion for having your own. That’s not for me.

I’m going to move the subject a different direction for a bit. What exactly are your gripes with PFF? All I hear is “PFF sucks” without an explanation as to why they suck.

I agree that they have a lot of stats that are unfairly out of context. I think it’s foolish to use them as a complete metric of a player’s performance.

But I also think some of their stats are relatively useful in terms of figuring out what certain strengths/weaknesses a player may have in their respective game.

I agree not to use PFF as a measuring stick for a players total performance, but to throw away and dismiss any statistic that they provide is a bit lazy.

 

[Ring 6]

I’m going to move the subject a different direction for a bit. What exactly are your gripes with PFF? All I hear is “PFF sucks” without an explanation as to why they suck.

Their grading is garbage. Example a QB making a horrible decision and throwing into coverage gets a higher grade than a qb throwing to a wide open receiver.
Their ratings do not express what they claim it expresses.
They decide who to charge a play against in the secondary and give out a ridiculous made up statistic of QB % against which people throw around like it has value.

I agree that they have a lot of stats that are unfairly out of context. I think it’s foolish to use them as a complete metric of a player’s performance.

Then why would you give it any credence? You accept its thoroughly flawed. It’s like saying I gave a bunch of math problems to someone who sucks at math so their answers aren’t valuable but some must be right.

But I also think some of their stats are relatively useful in terms of figuring out what certain strengths/weaknesses a player may have in their respective game.

I’m not sure if you are taking about stats or ratings.
Their ratings are ignorant so they gave no value. Their stats are made up so I don’t know how those have value either. Maybe you can say what stats you mean here.

I agree not to use PFF as a measuring stick for a players total performance, but to throw away and dismiss any statistic that they provide is a bit lazy.

But they aren’t providing statistics. They are (often incorrectly) assessing blame and throwing numbers at it that are not accurate.
A statistic is Tom brady completed 8 of 11 passes. A pff is “I think we should charge thise passes to a defender so x player was 4/5 against”. Statistic are fact. PFF is not.

 

[mgteich]

I would note the Miguel's $18.1M includes the man roster used for calculating the cap through the beginning of the season.

Any free agents or draftees are then dealt with on a net basis. For example, only 3 draftees will add to the pre-season cap. The other 7 will reduce the cap once the season starts.

However, your point is well taken. We aren't trading for someone who will use up $14M of the 2019 cap. Such a player would have to have restructured and extended contract.

The structural outlines of a contract aren't the issue. It's the real numbers of the cap, and the roster, and for the positional groupings within the roster.

The Pats have $18.1m in cap space to start 2019 (Miguel's number).

Williams would immediately hit the cap for $14.2m.

While there appear to be ways to increase cap space, not all of those that have been suggested are realistic - either financially for the player, or logistically for the roster.

Then there are the expenses that most folks haven't accounted for:
.... in-house free agents (22 of them)
.... the 12-man draft class

There really isn't "always a way" that still makes sense for the team.