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Will we likely have the divisions #4 QB in 2020?

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Oct 31st

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Sicilian

Pro Bowl Player
He has ignored QB for the past 3 years with Brady in his 40's and only spending a 7th and 4th round picks on the position since he traded Jimmy. No extension for Brady, no FA signing or trade, no draft capital. Complete and total failure for the QB succession plan.

To be fair, when he drafted Jimmy G, there was a large group of fans upset because they "wasted" a 2nd round pick that could have been used to maximize what was around Brady. I think at the time they wondered if Brady would be done in the next 2-3 years, but once it became clear he would not be (not even close), they either didn't like anyone enough in the 1st/2nd, or they flipped the strategy and decided to focus on other areas. It plays back into the idea that they kept pushing money forward to win now, continually expecting Brady's time to eventually run out. But it didn't, and I have a hard time blaming them 100% for not correctly predicting the end for a QB who doesn't seem to have one.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
He has ignored QB for the past 3 years with Brady in his 40's and only spending a 7th and 4th round picks on the position since he traded Jimmy. No extension for Brady, no FA signing or trade, no draft capital. Complete and total failure for the QB succession plan.
I'm somewhat confused. Until the very last minute when we signed a QB that no one else wanted, who was the quality quarterback that Belichick obtained this past season?
They had 500k guaranteed available to pay another QB.

The cap had to be reset. They had to start over because they couldn’t afford another year of Brady or any other expensive vet and still be competitive. They went “all in” the last five-six years. They paid free agents and played in 4 Super Bowls.

The only potential to be competitive this year was if Cam or Stidham was good and neither was. Neither situation was going to end with them having a super bowl ring on their finger.

They have kids at LB at WR and TE... this was a reset year. Wondering why they couldn’t have won a couple more games is mental masturbation. Lose by 3, lose by 30... a loss is a loss.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
To be fair, when he drafted Jimmy G, there was a large group of fans upset because they "wasted" a 2nd round pick that could have been used to maximize what was around Brady. I think at the time they wondered if Brady would be done in the next 2-3 years, but once it became clear he would not be (not even close), they either didn't like anyone enough in the 1st/2nd, or they flipped the strategy and decided to focus on other areas. It plays back into the idea that they kept pushing money forward to win now, continually expecting Brady's time to eventually run out. But it didn't, and I have a hard time blaming them 100% for not correctly predicting the end for a QB who doesn't seem to have one.
That was just a matter of bad timing. I don’t think anyone expected Brady to still maintain that level of play, so I get why he made the pick. Brady is obviously an anomaly, although, due to the rule changes, I think we’ll see more QBs break the 40yr old marker going forward. It’s sort of crazy to see that evolution at the position, but it remains to be seen how many guys will be playing at an elite level at that age.

As for the Garoppolo pick, can’t entirely put that on Belichick for guessing wrong the first time. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they make a run at bringing Jimmy G back.
 

mgteich

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They had 500k guaranteed available to pay another QB.

The cap had to be reset. They had to start over because they couldn’t afford another year of Brady or any other expensive vet and still be competitive. They went “all in” the last five-six years. They paid free agents and played in 4 Super Bowls.

The only potential to be competitive this year was if Cam or Stidham was good and neither was. Neither situation was going to end with them having a super bowl ring on their finger.

They have kids at LB at WR and TE... this was a reset year. Wondering why they couldn’t have won a couple more games is mental masturbation. Lose by 3, lose by 30... a loss is a loss.
Belichick had an idea of what cap money would be freed up. Ignoring that, Belichick could at any time restructured Gilmore's contract.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Belichick had an idea of what cap money would be freed up. Ignoring that, Belichick could at any time restructured Gilmore's contract.
BB had an idea of what cap money would be freed up... you have some inside info the rest of us don’t?

When Brady needed to be signed they had no money, they couldn’t afford the Bridgewater’s of the world never mind 50 million for Tom. They had no money to spend so they signed Cam in the hopes they could revive him, he had zero interest elsewhere, he was cheap.

And no they couldn’t restructure Gilmore again, I just told you and BB told you... they went “all in” the last 5-6 years. Part of that was asking Gilmore to restructure in 2018 and 2019 so the team could sign other players, which kicked his cap money down the road. As it was they had to move his salary from 2021 to 2020 just to keep him happy. They had drawn from that well too many times already.

They were broke, the result of 3 championships, 4 appearances to end Tom’s Patriot career. Only in Patriot Nation could three rings be considered “mismanagement.”
 

mgteich

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BB had an idea of what cap money would be freed up... you have some inside info the rest of us don’t?

When Brady needed to be signed they had no money, they couldn’t afford the Bridgewater’s of the world never mind 50 million for Tom. They had no money to spend so they signed Cam in the hopes they could revive him, he had zero interest elsewhere, he was cheap.

And no they couldn’t restructure Gilmore again, I just told you and BB told you... they went “all in” the last 5-6 years. Part of that was asking Gilmore to restructure in 2018 and 2019 so the team could sign other players, which kicked his cap money down the road. As it was they had to move his salary from 2021 to 2020 just to keep him happy. They had drawn from that well too many times already.

They were broke, the result of 3 championships, 4 appearances to end Tom’s Patriot career. Only in Patriot Nation could three rings be considered “mismanagement.”
Why are you deflecting? I made no criticism of management for years before 2020. I simply pointed out that we could have restructured the contract of Gilmore. This type of cap management would have been consistent with the cap management of the past 20 years. Belichick chose not to do so and not to sign players with money that could have been available. And, at the end of camp (and through the trade deadline) chose not to use the cap money we had and/or the money that could have been freed up by restructuring Gilmore. We didn't have a NT. We had the worst receiving corps in the NFL (or maybe the 3rd worst). And yet, Belichick made the CHOICE not to add needed players.

I understand that folks agree with Belichick's strategy of moving forward and moving the money to 2021 instead of trying to be more competitive in 2020. We may find out in the next book that the team expected a short season and just wanted to wait until 2021.

As an aside, franchising Thuney and paying him $15M seems in conflict with Belichick's other actions. He could have saved this money for 2021.
 

amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
To be fair, when he drafted Jimmy G, there was a large group of fans upset because they "wasted" a 2nd round pick that could have been used to maximize what was around Brady. I think at the time they wondered if Brady would be done in the next 2-3 years, but once it became clear he would not be (not even close), they either didn't like anyone enough in the 1st/2nd, or they flipped the strategy and decided to focus on other areas. It plays back into the idea that they kept pushing money forward to win now, continually expecting Brady's time to eventually run out. But it didn't, and I have a hard time blaming them 100% for not correctly predicting the end for a QB who doesn't seem to have one.
So what? Who cares what the fans think. It is Bill's job to draft the QB of the future while also building the team like Green Bay has done with Rodgers when they drafted Love. Bill has done nothing for 3 years with Brady at ages 40,41, 42. This mess is 100 percent on him and also why fans are understandably worried that he will not get the position right or spend the necessary resources to do do.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I get your point about saying Belichick would be negligent by not wanting to acquire a quality QB. I re-read my post and didn’t imply or say that. I’m sure he does want to, but it has to make sense.

Would he spend the money for elite play? Sure, but I’m guessing he puts guys like Mahomes/Rodgers in that category. I don’t think he’d be willing to overpay for someone like Stafford or a similar player.

Of course he wants to improve the team and he needs a QB for the sake of improving the team. But at the same time, he’s proven he’s not going to overpay someone for the sake of doing that. That’s not my opinion, that’s just based on past history. I mean, let’s be honest, prior to them eventually acquiring Newton, they were seemingly prepared to go into camp with who they had and I’m sure he would have made it work.

I’m sure he’ll make moves to make them better there coming off this season. But what that will be remains to be seen.
I’m not saying you implied that I am saying that’s the end result of what you suggested. In other words if you assumption is correct then I would conclude he acted negligently. I don’t believe he would.
I also would consider breaking the bank for Matthew Stafford to be negligent. Signing a guy with a name who isn’t going to win doesn’t help. But signing a lesser known, perhaps less expensive player WHO WILL GIVE YOU A BETTER CHANCE TO WIN does help.
We need a guy to execute the offense not a guy who put up gaudy numbers between the 30s while losing. I think there are a number of QBs with less name power than Stafford who would do better here than he would.
I don’t think you can use last year as an example because there was no money to get a qb with. I’m quite certain belichick was caught with his pants down because he never believed Brady would leave.
There was no money left to sign a qb other than the one that fell off the turnip truck.

This year he has the most cap space he has ever had. He has one of the highest picks he has ever had and he had a team that’s got holes.
I can’t imagine a scenario where his plan is anything but using the most buying power he has ever had to address the most important pieces.
We have observed 20 years of being in a position where every season they were net personnel losers. Meaning the contracts it would have taken to keep their players exceeded what they had to spend, so they had to accept replacing players with cheaper ones and try to make the mix fit together.
This is the first time he is a net buyer and in a big way.
When you look at a belichick team and understand his philosophy he has accepted less than ideal players in many roles because he had no choice.
Something like this: The defense at its best requires (among other things) a beast to stop the run in the middle a shut down corner and an edge player who is equally good in run d, coverage and pass rush.
I think it’s safe to say that If there were no cap belichick would have made those 3 a top priority. But because of the cap he couldn’t always get them. You end up with Danny Shelton, Beau Allen, you rent Revis, you spend many second round picks in corners, you mix and match situational edge players. Those weren’t what he WANTED to do they were what he HAD TO do.
At the same time he drafted wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Hightower, Jones, etc in the first round and broke the bank for Gilmore, Colvin, Thomas, when he could scrape together cap room.
QB is the same thing in the other side of the ball, we just haven’t had to address it for a long time.

If you look at BBs tenure you see 20 years of a dynamic where if the cap was 200 mill and every player became a FA tomorrow it would take 300 mill to sign them. That’s not the case now. Don’t expect a guy flush with money to act like he did when he had to lunch pennies.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I'm somewhat confused. Until the very last minute when we signed a QB that no one else wanted, who was the quality quarterback that Belichick obtained this past season?
There was no money to obtain a qb with. By all means tell me what you would have done to fix things when Brady left. Belichick obviously never expected Brady to leave, but when he did as soon as free agency started and there were no viable QBs at no viable cost to sign, should he have invented one?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
He has ignored QB for the past 3 years with Brady in his 40's and only spending a 7th and 4th round picks on the position since he traded Jimmy. No extension for Brady, no FA signing or trade, no draft capital. Complete and total failure for the QB succession plan.
Because he clearly expected Brady to retire a patriot.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
.
I don’t think you can use last year as an example because there was no money to get a qb with. I’m quite certain belichick was caught with his pants down because he never believed Brady would leave.
There was no money left to sign a qb other than the one that fell off the turnip truck.

No matter how many times you state the position, the truth will not change. Belichick had the option to free up cap room by restructuring Gilmore's contract.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Why are you deflecting? I made no criticism of management for years before 2020. I simply pointed out that we could have restructured the contract of Gilmore. This type of cap management would have been consistent with the cap management of the past 20 years. Belichick chose not to do so and not to sign players with money that could have been available. And, at the end of camp (and through the trade deadline) chose not to use the cap money we had and/or the money that could have been freed up by restructuring Gilmore. We didn't have a NT. We had the worst receiving corps in the NFL (or maybe the 3rd worst). And yet, Belichick made the CHOICE not to add needed players.

I understand that folks agree with Belichick's strategy of moving forward and moving the money to 2021 instead of trying to be more competitive in 2020. We may find out in the next book that the team expected a short season and just wanted to wait until 2021.

As an aside, franchising Thuney and paying him $15M seems in conflict with Belichick's other actions. He could have saved this money for 2021.
Deflecting? What are you talking about, I couldn't have been more clear. They restructured and borrowed from Gilmore's contract in 2018 and 2019... there was no more borrowing from Gilmore. He is slated to play next year for a 7.5 million dollar salary (he won't) and his cap hit is 17.2 million dollars... do you see the disparity there? That well had run dry.

They were broke from kicking the salary cap can down the road for the last 5-6 years... they had no money. That's not sustainable but it provided a veteran "win now" team for Brady at the end of his Patriot tenure. I don't see how fans can complain about this now unless they simply don't understand it, which clearly many fans and media members do not. Salary and salary cap are not the same thing. You can't make salary cap debt disappear without paying for it, there's no salary cap tax shelter in the Bahamas.

And they had a Nose Tackle, it was Beau Allen and he got hurt, he'll be back next year hopefully healthy. They franchised Thuney because they likely wanted to keep him and should, once they figure out what the salary cap is for next year with all the space they'll have available they will have a better understanding of what to pay him. Unlike fans who have the gift of hindsight, BB couldn't run his offseason under the assumption that Michael Onwenu, a 6th round rookie is going to be a stud right out of the box... nobody knew that, not BB, certainly not you or I.

They were broke last offseason... salary cap broke. It was either sign Brady and a skeleton crew, or keep all the best free agents you could afford and take a hit for one season to reset the salary cap. They chose the latter. It was the best thing for Tom as he gets to play meaningful games to end his career, it was the best thing for the Patriots as they can turn the team around faster. The Patriots did the right thing by Tom, they could have been dicks like Detroit were with Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson and held him hostage.

All we have now from fans and media members, who frankly should know better but would rather dance on BB's grave than learn how the cap actually works, is uninformed uneducated or simply biased btchng and moaning. We have to endure one down year to rebuild... woe is us.
 
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Triumph

Hall of Fame Poster
Because he clearly expected Brady to retire a patriot.
Then why didnt Belichick put some players around Brady? The whole idea of Brady taking less money was so the Pats could afford good players for the entire team. Not so BB could buy 14 defensive backs, but also bring in some decent WRs and maybe a TE.

Brady asked for help. Its a fact. Romo even said so on a broadcast.

Thats why Brady split. It was the right move too.
 

amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
Because he clearly expected Brady to retire a patriot.
That was a colossal miscalculation. And he surely did not offer him any type of contract to make him want to stay or put any talent around him.
The other thing that does not jive with that take is Bill said in 14 that it was better to be early at Qb position. Brady was 37. Then when Brady is 40 he does nothing for 3 years???
 
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mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
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Deflecting? What are you talking about, I couldn't have been more clear. They restructured and borrowed from Gilmore's contract in 2018 and 2019... there was no more borrowing from Gilmore. He is slated to play next year for a 7.5 million dollar salary (he won't) and his cap hit is 17.2 million dollars... do you see the disparity there? That well had run dry.

They were broke from kicking the salary cap can down the road for the last 5-6 years... they had no money. That's not sustainable but it provided a veteran "win now" team for Brady at the end of his Patriot tenure. I don't see how fans can complain about this now unless they simply don't understand it, which clearly many fans and media members do not. Salary and salary cap are not the same thing. You can't make salary cap debt disappear without paying for it, there's no salary cap tax shelter in the Bahamas.

And they had a Nose Tackle, it was Beau Allen and he got hurt, he'll be back next year hopefully healthy. They franchised Thuney because they likely wanted to keep him and should, once they figure out what the salary cap is for next year with all the space they'll have available they will have a better understanding of what to pay him. Unlike fans who have the gift of hindsight, BB couldn't run his offseason under the assumption that Michael Onwenu, a 6th round rookie is going to be a stud right out of the box... nobody knew that, not BB, certainly not you or I.

They were broke last offseason... salary cap broke. It was either sign Brady and a skeleton crew, or keep all the best free agents you could afford and take a hit for one season to reset the salary cap. They chose the latter. It was the best thing for Tom as he gets to play meaningful games to end his career, it was the best thing for the Patriots as they can turn the team around faster. The Patriots did the right thing by Tom, they could have been dicks like Detroit did with Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson and held him hostage.

All we have now from fans and media members, who frankly should know better but would rather dance on BB's grave than learn how the cap actually works, is uninformed uneducated or simply biased btchng and moaning. We have to endure one down year to rebuild... woe is us.
Let me understand. Almost all successful teams push significant compensation in the future. The patriots have done so for decades.

So, why for the very first time was it the case that the team couldn't restructure Gilmore's 2020 contract, moving 1/2 of his 2020 salary into 2022?
 

Ring 6

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Let me understand. Almost all successful teams push significant compensation in the future. The patriots have done so for decades.

So, why for the very first time was it the case that the team couldn't restructure Gilmore's 2020 contract, moving 1/2 of his 2020 salary into 2022?
The patriots have not consistently done so. They rarely do. They have never restructured a player 3 years in a row.
 

Ring 6

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Then why didnt Belichick put some players around Brady? The whole idea of Brady taking less money was so the Pats could afford good players for the entire team. Not so BB could buy 14 defensive backs, but also bring in some decent WRs and maybe a TE.

Brady asked for help. Its a fact. Romo even said so on a broadcast.

Thats why Brady split. It was the right move too.
Well let’s see. Last year we went to camp with Edelman, Gordon, D Thomas, Mitchell, Dorsett and Eric decker plus had just spent a 1 on a WR. When AB became available we paid a lot to sign him. When he and Gordon went off their rockers we traded for Brady’s choice in Sanu.
We had a 1st round pick RB in his 2nd year. We added a 3rd round rb and had the best receiving RB in the nfl. That is more weapons than we won the Sb with and more weapons than we had in most Sb seasons.
 

Doctor DDS

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I am glad the Patriots took their medicine this year as I am more interested in being serious Super Bowl contenders again than just being competitive. Restructuring contracts may have helped them slightly in 2020 but they would still likely be on the sidelines this weekend and it would have limited their flexibility over the next few years.

Let's see what this offseason does to teams like Saints and Steelers as they purge their rosters.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Let me understand. Almost all successful teams push significant compensation in the future. The patriots have done so for decades.

So, why for the very first time was it the case that the team couldn't restructure Gilmore's 2020 contract, moving 1/2 of his 2020 salary into 2022?
He’s not under contract for 2022, his contract ends next season and his cap hit is massive comparative to his half salary. He won’t play for that small a salary, and they could re-sign him but they need to account for the cap money already owed. He’s not going to take less just because the Pats decided to push his cap money down the road for years. And Gilmore wasn’t alone, the Pats were doing this with Brady, Gronk, Cannon and others to keep the last five years deep with talent and experience. The idea that BB was excuse making when he described the 2020 cap situation is garbage, he was spot on. Fans and many media members are clueless or looking for a reason to hate Bill because he didn’t sign Brady... the reality is they ran out of money... specifically cap room.
 

Ivan

Hall of Fame Poster
We will likely draft a QB or more likely in the 2nd. Will this QB be better than Tua in 2020? Will he even be better than Fitzy who he would need to be ahead of to be the #4 instead of the #5.

Will we bring in a veteran who is better than Tua or Fields? We might; but it would cost.

BUF
will have a better QB

MIA
will have Tua plus a veteran

NYJ
will lively have Fields or Wilson
That’s what happens at the end of the longest dynasty run in NFL history. Belichick now has to build another consistent contender, and he has to find the QB who can make that happen. This will take many moves and a ton of work, but I am really confident this organization can get it done.
 

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