Will BenJarvus Green-Ellis Make the 53?

[Ring 6]

It is agreed then.

Maroney and BJGE will both make the team. BJGE will be noted for his hard nosed ability to get tough yard and not go down easily. Maroney will heretofore, never run up the middle, but will be used instead as a third down back.

Now, what to do with Fred Taylor and Morris. One of them may end up being chopped. Hard to cut Taylor given that he just signed...looks like Morris may be cut.

You may well be wrong on every single thing in your post.

 

[RayClay]

By the way, the basis of your point is wrong.
Our strategy vs the Rams was not to 'stuff the run' and make them one-dimensional. It was to hit the WRs, hit Faulk whereever he went, throw off the timing of the passing game.
Our defending of the Colts has never, ever been based on stuffing the run. In fact, we play nickel as a base against them.
Again, you are assuming things that aren't necessarily accurate. Making teams one-dimensional by taking away the run is one aspect of playing defense, not the only.
BBs HOF game plan vs the Bills high-powered offense started with convincing his defenders that they needed to allow 100 rushing yards to Thurman Thomas and they would win.
The problem we en****ered in that game was that our OL couldnt block their DL. That held true on running plays and passing plays. They didnt take anytihng away to make us one-dimensional, they physically beat our OL in individual battles. I think given that dynamic, I would have to agree with wanting the ball in Tom Bradys hands.

So the Giants defense was so good no one could run or pass on them? Wow! That's truly incredible!

 

[RayClay]

Since it's been established that the Patriots Championship teams won despite a tremendous lack of receivers and running backs, maybe we should cut all five of our linemen .

Ashworth is still available, and I'm sure we could talk Denver out of Gorin. Sure great to know that the OLine was completely responsible for our SB loss.

 

[Garbanza]

And understand what you are watching. That is my point.

I understand that he's not close to fulfilling his alleged potential. His field vision blows. He does dance - sorry, watch the film. He dances. He's better in the open field - and for the life of me I do not understand why they do not utilize him more in the screen game. Yes, I know that the O-line is much better at pass blocking than run blocking. Perhaps I just prefer a back that just hits the hole instead of stutter-stepping and waiting for the o-line to creat a gaping one he's feel comfortable in.

Anyway, drink the Koolaide

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Maroney hits the hole well enough. His main problem is on outside runs when there isn't a hole. He doesn't plow into the backs of his blockers to get back to the LOS or pick up a single yard, and instead puts out a lot of effort to lose two yards, get back to the line of scrimmage, or gain a couple of yards. When there isn't a hole between the tackles, he may hesitate, waiting for a hole to open, but he still takes it north/south, even if that means plowing into the pile and sometimes getting nowhere. He is perfectly capable of hitting tiny holes at the point of attack and has gotten to the second line of defense a few times this preseason doing just this, despite marginal run-blocking. In cases, I've seen him hit the point of attack, instead of cutting back into open space where there might be more to offer, but that's more a case of not dancing enough (or just having better vision and discipline than me). Grading him on style points is just silly. This isn't Madden.

 

[Ring 6]

So the Giants defense was so good no one could run or pass on them? Wow! That's truly incredible!

Apparently they were that day. They stopped the best offense in NFL history.
Do you dispute that they were dominating the individual battles between OL and DL?

 

[BradyFTW!]

It is agreed then.

Maroney and BJGE will both make the team. BJGE will be noted for his hard nosed ability to get tough yard and not go down easily. Maroney will heretofore, never run up the middle, but will be used instead as a third down back.

Now, what to do with Fred Taylor and Morris. One of them may end up being chopped. Hard to cut Taylor given that he just signed...looks like Morris may be cut.

Except BJGE isn't a very good hard-nosed runner. Taylor, Morris, and Maroney are all better at grinding out short and intermediate yards. Of course, you have to actually know what you're talking about to know that, so it's no surprise that you don't.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I understand that he's not close to fulfilling his alleged potential. His field vision blows. He does dance - sorry, watch the film. He dances. He's better in the open field - and for the life of me I do not understand why they do not utilize him more in the screen game. Yes, I know that the O-line is much better at pass blocking than run blocking. Perhaps I just prefer a back that just hits the hole instead of stutter-stepping and waiting for the o-line to creat a gaping one he's feel comfortable in.

Anyway, drink the Koolaide

There are a whole lot of 'dancers' in the NFL, and they all have one thing in common: a poor success rate. Maroney's, in 2007, was the best in the league. You're wrong.

 

[RayClay]

Apparently they were that day. They stopped the best offense in NFL history.
Do you dispute that they were dominating the individual battles between OL and DL?

I don't believe individual battles are as important if you are balanced. You mentioned the Rams. Of course we didn't game plan to take their running game away, they did it for us. I don't think our defense was individually better, I think we had a good game plan and they fell right into it. I'm sure they were surprised that we took Faulk out on a regular basis as a receiver, but they nevertheless played a one dimensional, no run defense.

I'll give the Giants credit for covering the short zones and stopping the run when we needed, the trouble is we didn't make them alter their defense more after it was obvious we weren't going to light it up easily.

Truth be told, I fault the game plan more than Maroney. I lke Maroney, I think he's a tremendous talent. By the third quarter, it seemed like a grind it out game and some Giants were already sucking wind and taking oxygen on the side lines. A commitment to the run, even if it stalled in the second quarter, could have reaped a lot of benefits. I've listed 4 or 5 before. We might have had a lot more room and time to pass in quarter 4.

No Olineman likes to stand their and get beat on by a full fledged assault. Most Olinemen like to dish it out too.

It's not like this is a radical theory, all the great teams have had balanced attack, even if it was just emphasis, not all pros.

We allowed what had been a fair-good team to completely exploit their strongest point which negated our strongest point. We were the better team had we merely made them play honest. we didn't. I don't think many playoff games go to the team that wins the individual battles. The got to the team that makes the other team react, spreads them, fools them so that they can dominate with their strength, or conversely, take what the D gives them.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't believe individual battles are as important if you are balanced.

 

[Ring 6]

I understand that he's not close to fulfilling his alleged potential. His field vision blows. He does dance - sorry, watch the film. He dances. He's better in the open field - and for the life of me I do not understand why they do not utilize him more in the screen game. Yes, I know that the O-line is much better at pass blocking than run blocking. Perhaps I just prefer a back that just hits the hole instead of stutter-stepping and waiting for the o-line to creat a gaping one he's feel comfortable in.

Anyway, drink the Koolaide

How is he 'not close to fulfiling his alleged potential'?
Did you have a problem with his 06 rookie season rushing for 700+ yards and a good average while splitting time with Corey Dillon?
Did you have a problem with him being the #1 back on the highest scoring offense in NFL history in 2007? Or his rushing average?
Or is he not fulfilling his potential because he broke a bone in 2008?

Anyone who describes his running style as dancing is putting a negatvie connotation to the comment,and implying ignorance toward the situation.
A RB does not hesitate because they don't know what to do, or because they are afraid to be hit, they hesitate because they are allowing the blocking to develop.
The fact is when there is no hole it doesnt really matter what the RB does, its going to get the same result. Putting your head down or trying to cutback to make the guy miss both will get about the same result. When the blocking is great, no back will hestiate.

What we are talking about are the plays where a hole is or is not developing. Maroney's running style is to hestitate to allow it to develop. That looks bad on the plays when it does not, but putting your head down and running into the pile doesn't work much better. When the hole DOES open, Maroneys style gets him thorugh it, while the non-hesitating back hits the hole before it opens.

Essentially what you are seeing and complaining about is when there is no hole when the back gets the handoff, AND none develops thereafter, Maroneys hesitiation was for naught, but it looks like he is confused, uncertain, indecisive, while the non-hestitant RB bangs into a tackler and you blame the blocking.
That is the point of looking at results. The guys running with the style you like better arent getting better results, they just have a style that makes it look like the blockings fault to you when there is no hole, while Maroneys style seems to you to be his fault when there is no hole.

 

[Ring 6]

The Rams didn't run the ball. What is your point? It was really about the Rams strategy now wasn't it?

You said we beat the Rams by stuffing the run and making them one-dimensional. You were wrong. What are you changing the discussion to now? Was the Ram play calling Laurence Maroneys fault? He is from St Louis isnt he?

 

[Ring 6]

I don't believe individual battles are as important if you are balanced.
you are kidding right? if not lets stop here, because telling me that play calling overcomes not being able to block the guy across from you is ludicrous
You mentioned the Rams. Of course we didn't game plan to take their running game away, they did it for us.
YOU said we stuffed the run and made them one dimensional
I don't think our defense was individually better, I think we had a good game plan and they fell right into it. I'm sure they were surprised that we took Faulk out on a regular basis as a receiver, but they nevertheless played a one dimensional, no run defense.

I'll give the Giants credit for covering the short zones and stopping the run when we needed, the trouble is we didn't make them alter their defense more after it was obvious we weren't going to light it up easily.
Do you really think we gameplan to 'light it up easily'?
Truth be told, I fault the game plan more than Maroney. I lke Maroney, I think he's a tremendous talent.
then why put so much effort into villifying him?
By the third quarter, it seemed like a grind it out game and some Giants were already sucking wind and taking oxygen on the side lines. A commitment to the run, even if it stalled in the second quarter, could have reaped a lot of benefits. I've listed 4 or 5 before. We might have had a lot more room and time to pass in quarter 4.

No Olineman likes to stand their and get beat on by a full fledged assault. Most Olinemen like to dish it out too.

It's not like this is a radical theory, all the great teams have had balanced attack, even if it was just emphasis, not all pros.
But this discussion is not about gameplanning. It is about your criticism of Maroney. Particularly you saying that he is hit or miss with long runs or losses, which is totally worng. You tried to prove that with 2 runs in the second quarter and then blaming him that we ran only once in the 4th. you lost that so now its gameplanning?

I think Maroney needs to work on hitting the hole, but every talented player needs to work on something.

Underlined above are my comments.
Im lost now on what your point is. You started out ripping Maroney, making assertions that were proven wrong, appeared to blame him for losing the SB, made statements that you now are saying obviously are wrong (ie Rams) and now you are praising Maroney and arguing about a balanced offense? I am so confused.

 

[JackBauer]

It is agreed then.

Maroney and BJGE will both make the team. BJGE will be noted for his hard nosed ability to get tough yard and not go down easily. Maroney will heretofore, never run up the middle, but will be used instead as a third down back.

Now, what to do with Fred Taylor and Morris. One of them may end up being chopped. Hard to cut Taylor given that he just signed...looks like Morris may be cut.

This is probably the exact opposite of what's going to end up happening... but to each their own, I guess.

 

[JackBauer]

So the Giants defense was so good no one could run or pass on them? Wow! That's truly incredible!

I see that, in lieu of any cogent argument, you're now resorting to snide one-liners.

About as good an indication of a lost argument as any, I suppose.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Here is Mike Reiss' reply during his Thursday noon time chat today regarding the choice between Morris or BJGE. I'm not saying he's right, but still very interesting...

12:38 Comment from Joe: If you had to choose just one, Sammy Morris or Ben Jarvis Green Ellis?
12:39 Comment from Mike Reiss: Very tough. I'll go Green-Ellis, thinking a bit to the long-term.

How is it that Mike Reiss can't see what so many here see? -the commonly held opinion thet BJGE is just a JAG, nothing more nothing less... unless you consider Morris just another older JAG coming off of injury.

We'll know soon enough, but I think BJGE makes the 53 man roster. And with that, I now return the thread back to Maroney talk all day, every day.

 

[thewaylifeshouldbe]

Doesn't there ever come a time on this board when the threads that have resolved to bickering, endless rehash, and go so far off topic you have to look to the title to remember what started it all, that they get tossed to the Pub?

Or maybe a new category: "Going Nowhere Threads".

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

I think the bigger question is "Does Sammy Morris make the roster?".

I love Sammy and hope he does make it, but he hasn't shown much this pre-season, while Taylor and Green-Ellis have looked good.

Faulk is a lock.

Maroney a probable lock just because the Pats seem to really want this guy to succeed and they look like they're committed to at least one more season of tentative approaches at the line, inability to hit holes quickly, excessive dancing behind the tackles, and all those other great "Maroney-isms".

If it were my call, it would be Faulk, Morris, Taylor and BJGE.

BJGE will be a star once he becomes an every down back.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the bigger question is "Does Sammy Morris make the roster?".

I love Sammy and hope he does make it, but he hasn't shown much this pre-season, while Taylor and Green-Ellis have looked good.

Faulk is a lock.

Maroney a probable lock just because the Pats seem to really want this guy to succeed and they look like they're committed to at least one more season of tentative approaches at the line, inability to hit holes quickly, excessive dancing behind the tackles, and all those other great "Maroney-isms".

If it were my call, it would be Faulk, Morris, Taylor and BJGE.

BJGE will be a star once he becomes an every down back.

I could respond te each point, but instead I'll just say
Disagree
and you can apply to each sentence.

 

[eagle eye]

I could respond te each point, but instead I'll just say
Disagree
and you can apply to each sentence.

So then you are saying that Morris has shown a lot this preseason?

And you are saying that Kevin Faulk is not a lock?