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Wilfork, Seymour named semifinalists for HOF

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NormZauchin

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After reading this I decided to see exactly how many of the Pats, the greatest dynasty of all time, are in the HOF. Their snub is a disgrace. Here's the list, which I don't think includes the latest inductees.

0 - Car, Hou, Jac
1 - Cincy
3 - Ravens
4 - Atl, NO, Sea
5 - TB, NE (we're tied with the biggest losers in NYFL history)
7 - NJ (let that sink in for a moment)
8 - Den
9 - Tenn
From this point on the teams have at least 2 or 3 times as many players in the HOF as the Pats.
10 - LC, Mia, Phi
13 - KC
14 - Ariz
15 - Minny
16 - Indy, SF
17 - Det, Cle
19 - LV (you have to be shytting me), LR
And now teams with at least 4 times as many players in the HOF as the Pats
20 - Dal, Was
21 - NYG
26 - GB, Pitt
30 - Chicago
Granted, some of the teams have been around longer than the Pats (not Dallas though) but they haven't been around for 4-6 times as many years.

Anyone who doesn't see that the Pats are being snubbed isn't looking.
Also, a general bias against AFC teams. Though they have not been part of the NFL as long as the original teams, it has been 50 years since the merger. If the distribution of HOF players were equitable, the original teams, being in the league twice as long as teams like the Pats, would have twice the number of HOF players, not four times as many.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Regarding our own candidates, I feel that Wilfork was better at his position than Seymour was at his, and was one of the very best of his generation... Not that I believe that Seymour shouldn't be in the HOF; it's more a concern that Wilfork might not receive as much consideration from the voters as he should.
 

Tunescribe

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If what you say is true it's the biggest bunch of ******** there is.

If people want to lay blame on that play at a player's feet, it's Asante.

I was at that game. I will never forget Asante (1) letting a game-clinching sideline interception slip through his fingers and (2) pulling up short to WATCH Rodney defend Tyree instead of doing his damn job. Kills me to this day.
 

1960Pats

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Also, a general bias against AFC teams. Though they have not been part of the NFL as long as the original teams, it has been 50 years since the merger. If the distribution of HOF players were equitable, the original teams, being in the league twice as long as teams like the Pats, would have twice the number of HOF players, not four times as many.
Exactly. That's why the NFC dominates in selections, though Dallas started the same time as the AFC and has 20 players in the HOF.

Now that I look at the overall list I can see that it's broken down into sections. The expansion teams have the fewest, then the Pats followed by the other AFL teams and finally the teams that come from the NFL, including Indy and Pitt who are now in the AFC.
 

signbabybrady

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In $amuel's defense, he did have to leave his feet to attempt the catch while at the same time worry about coming down in-bounds with them... To me his more egregious act was drifting away from his ass-ignment, David Tyree... That's Not Doing Your Job...

I would've loved to see a replay - ANY ****ING REPLAY AT ALL - of Rodney's near-INT at the 2-minute warning...

And to me, again, the most egregious near-INT was shEli's pass later in that drive which went over Stomper Meriweather's shoulder and right ****ing through his ****ing punk-ass, gang-banging ****ing arms... Eric Weddle would've had that one.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Regarding our own candidates, I feel that Wilfork was better at his position than Seymour was at his, and was one of the very best of his generation... Not that I believe that Seymour shouldn't be in the HOF; it's more a concern that Wilfork might not receive as much consideration from the voters as he should.
This should help Vince but voters are dumb and probably forgot Hampton, J Williams, P Williams and others.

Vince at his best was as good as anyone and was durable as ****. Tough as **** basically fighting two 300 guys 30 times a game.

Seriously look at the history of the league and tell me how many true 1/0 techs you'd rather have over Vince. There really aren't many like Vince.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Rooney campaigns his arse off for his players. Greene, Fanaca and especially Bettis were all borderline candidates and they got in fairly quickly compared to other players of similar stature. I honestly hate that Bettis is in. He averaged less than 4 YPC and in the playoffs less than 3.5. His playoff "high"light? Almost fumbling away the 2005 divisional round vs the colts. I would have put Hines Ward in before him. Terrific blocker, team leader and a SB MVP.

Bob needs to start doing this for his players. It's a joke that Edgerrin James got in so fast while Law, Seymour and others have waited. James is in that same group as Bettis who I wouldn't let in.
who the hell is Edgerrin James
who the hell is Jerome Bettis
who the hell is Terrell Davis
 

everlong

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who the hell is Edgerrin James
who the hell is Jerome Bettis
who the hell is Terrell Davis

I actually don't have an issue with Davis. He had a short career but his peak was so much higher than James or Bettis. Davis was also a force in the playoffs and the other two were not. James was average and Bettis was awful in this regard. Davis was both a league and SB MVP. He's one of the very few to go over 2,000 yards rushing. Any one of these components is impressive but coupled together I think it puts him in the hall. If it weren't for injuries he would have had both the peak and the volume. I'll take peak over volume any day of the week.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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I actually don't have an issue with Davis. He had a short career but his peak was so much higher than James or Bettis. Davis was also a force in the playoffs and the other two were not. James was average and Bettis was awful in this regard. Davis was both a league and SB MVP. He's one of the very few to go over 2,000 yards rushing. Any one of these components is impressive but coupled together I think it puts him in the hall. If it weren't for injuries he would have had both the peak and the volume. I'll take peak over volume any day of the week.
Except...

The single most blathered about, trumpeted, ballyhooed thing which has even been used to define this era is:

The salary cap.

The Broncos violated the salary cap in both 1997 and 1998. They gained an unfair competitive advantage. They broke rules. In short, they (unlike the Patriots) actually cheated. And Paul Tagliabue slapped them on the wrist and no one ever talks about it.

Gale Sayers, yeah
Emmitt Smith, yeah
Barry Sanders, yeah


Davis? No. LOTS of players had injury-shortened careers. And playoff success.

The list of more worthy players not in Canton is at least fifty. Maybe a hundred.

Without Plunkett (and Dreith) the Fraiders would never have won a Super Bowl
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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Also, a general bias against AFC teams. Though they have not been part of the NFL as long as the original teams, it has been 50 years since the merger. If the distribution of HOF players were equitable, the original teams, being in the league twice as long as teams like the Pats, would have twice the number of HOF players, not four times as many.

I don’t know about that one. Most of the pre-merger leagues had 8-10 teams, so a QB being “average” back then still meant he was the fifth best overall QB. Or, if you theorize there are always 30 active Hall of Fame players at any given time, teams post-merger would have an average of 1, while teams then would have 3 or 4.

I’d be curious to see the list with post-merger players only.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Exactly. That's why the NFC dominates in selections, though Dallas started the same time as the AFC and has 20 players in the HOF.

Now that I look at the overall list I can see that it's broken down into sections. The expansion teams have the fewest, then the Pats followed by the other AFL teams and finally the teams that come from the NFL, including Indy and Pitt who are now in the AFC.
I won't mind Mike Curtis being inducted.

Stallworth over Morgan? No.

It's a popularity contest.

If Grogan starts Super Bowl XX and throws a touchdown to Steamer, he's probably in there now

Pats were again good enough to make it back there in '86 & '88, but Berry loves him some Eason
 

TheRainMaker

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I was at that game. I will never forget Asante (1) letting a game-clinching sideline interception slip through his fingers and (2) pulling up short to WATCH Rodney defend Tyree instead of doing his damn job. Kills me to this day.
Had Asante did his job, Eli most likely holds on to the ball and gets sacked for a 4th and 10 at least. Doesn’t guarantee the win, but that was a massive chunk of yards the Giants got.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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I actually don't have an issue with Davis. He had a short career but his peak was so much higher than James or Bettis. Davis was also a force in the playoffs and the other two were not. James was average and Bettis was awful in this regard. Davis was both a league and SB MVP. He's one of the very few to go over 2,000 yards rushing. Any one of these components is impressive but coupled together I think it puts him in the hall. If it weren't for injuries he would have had both the peak and the volume. I'll take peak over volume any day of the week.
I'm all about "peak" performance as well. It's big more me. Consistency and volume matter but peak years/stretches are what really help separate the best of the best imo.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Had Asante did his job, Eli most likely holds on to the ball and gets sacked for a 4th and 10 at least. Doesn’t guarantee the win, but that was a massive chunk of yards the Giants got.

Imagine a different quantum reality in which not only does the helmet catch fall incomplete, but also Offensive Holding is call on the Entire Vagiants OL... Do you accept the penalty to create a 3rd/15 and give shEli two more chances, or do you decline and keep the 4th/5?
 

NormZauchin

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I don’t know about that one. Most of the pre-merger leagues had 8-10 teams, so a QB being “average” back then still meant he was the fifth best overall QB. Or, if you theorize there are always 30 active Hall of Fame players at any given time, teams post-merger would have an average of 1, while teams then would have 3 or 4.

I’d be curious to see the list with post-merger players only.
Your assumption is that the number of players admitted in any period must be a constant and that the league with fewer teams would be awarding more Hall of Fame selections to each of the early franchises. Perhaps a correct assumption, (though it does not account for the large number of Cowboy entrants, despite a 1960 start for the club), but given the larger population and the superior training of athletes in the last fifty years as compared to the first fifty, there would be a significant increase in the number of potential Hall of Fame players at any given time. Any decision to limit admissions each year to the approximate number in, say the 1950s, is itself a form of bias against the Patriots and other AFC teams.
 

TheRainMaker

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Imagine a different quantum reality in which not only does the helmet catch fall incomplete, but also Offensive Holding is call on the Entire Vagiants OL... Do you accept the penalty to create a 3rd/15 and give shEli two more chances, or do you decline and keep the 4th/5?
Yep, that should've been called and I was screaming for that during the play. 4th and 5 over 3rd and 15? That's a tough question. I assume the Pats D would play it safe and the Giants would obviously go for it on 4th down, so I would imagine the Giants would get as many yards as they can on 3rd down. On the other hand if there's an incomplete pass on 3rd down or even a sack, it's 4th and long. I think I'd take the 3rd and 15.
 

everlong

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Except...

The single most blathered about, trumpeted, ballyhooed thing which has even been used to define this era is:

The salary cap.

The Broncos violated the salary cap in both 1997 and 1998. They gained an unfair competitive advantage. They broke rules. In short, they (unlike the Patriots) actually cheated. And Paul Tagliabue slapped them on the wrist and no one ever talks about it.

Gale Sayers, yeah
Emmitt Smith, yeah
Barry Sanders, yeah


Davis? No. LOTS of players had injury-shortened careers. And playoff success.

The list of more worthy players not in Canton is at least fifty. Maybe a hundred.

Without Plunkett (and Dreith) the Fraiders would never have won a Super Bowl

I don't think you can name players that had his level of success and aren't in the hall. Gayle Sayers is probably the perfect comp. Sayers was definitely more electric but Davis was more physical. Different eras on the stats and different season length so we'll call that a draw. Sayers unfortunately never got to play in the post season. Davis was a beast and as I noted won a SB MVP. Advantage Davis.

Edit: Also do we really want to get into omitting players on cheating?
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Yep, that should've been called and I was screaming for that during the play. 4th and 5 over 3rd and 15? That's a tough question. I assume the Pats D would play it safe and the Giants would obviously go for it on 4th down, so I would imagine the Giants would get as many yards as they can on 3rd down. On the other hand if there's an incomplete pass on 3rd down or even a sack, it's 4th and long. I think I'd take the 3rd and 15.

I think I would too... 5 yards gained is a 1st down on 4th/5, but only 4th/10 on 3rd/15... Vagiants would almost have had to throw a screen or something similar just to make it 4th/somewhat-manageable... I would've liked our defense's chances in that situation...
 

Actual Pats Fan

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I don't think you can name players that had his level of success and aren't in the hall. Gayle Sayers is probably the perfect comp. Sayers was definitely more electric but Davis was more physical. Different eras on the stats and different season length so we'll call that a draw. Sayers unfortunately never got to play in the post season. Davis was a beast and as I noted won a SB MVP. Advantage Davis.

Edit: Also do we really want to get into omitting players on cheating?
(What the hell is Ken Stabler doing in the HOF)

Sayers' all purpose yards record was broken by Mack Herron here in '74, and Mack's was broken a year later by Terry Metcalf (in only 13 games). The subsequent record breakers had 16 to do it. Gale was a 5 time First Team All Pro, even with an injury shortened career.

So three (3) great seasons rushing puts you in the Hall. That's all Davis had.
 

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