Wide Receivers depth chart

[venecol]

So, I flopped them, & its 5M dead cap, 10M savings
Yep, that changes stuff. I'd venture to say if you're offering a 2 , you can take him home today, with three guys on staff that showed better production and several binkies clamoring for a chance.

Nobody will offer a 2nd round pick for Agholor. The best Bill has received in trades since 2019 has been a 4th (Gronk, Michel). Probably a 2024 6th.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Yeah, lets see how Nixon shapes up in training camp. If he looks awesome, then I'm good with either an Agholor trade or depending on how long it takes Thornton to pick up the offense, sending him to PS and keeping Agamemnon

That would not be a wise decision.

 

[Wozzy]

Yeah, lets see how Nixon shapes up in training camp. If he looks awesome, then I'm good with either an Agholor trade or depending on how long it takes Thornton to pick up the offense, sending him to PS and keeping Agamemnon

Thornton would get a soft tissue injury like a deep bone bruise or hamstring pull and find himself on the IR with the Foxboro flu.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Nobody will offer a 2nd round pick for Agholor. The best Bill has received in trades since 2019 has been a 4th (Gronk, Michel). Probably a 2024 6th.

Sort of my opinion too. I mean, he's not N'Keal Harry, so a 2024 7th wouldn't be enough, right? I kid. N'Keal Harry had one decent season in terms of productivity. Trouble was, it was spread over three years. Hey-o.

Everybody *****ing about the long posts, just don't read it. Especially after the bolded line.

I feel strongly on all sides of this. Folks want to get a fast jump to the binkies, because we are tired of not having a "real number 1" (and naturally because we want to get better. Nobody wants to have a roster full of 2s.) So we just see upside when we look at the binkies.

But minus the dazzling speed/agility of a Tyquan Thornton, remember, Harry was BB's mega-binkie for some reason. You could kind of see all this "compete for the ball" stuff in college, then he couldn't even compete for the check at a pizza joint. I guess everybody saw the same thing. You know how somebody said they ought to call a guy 7-11 because he's always open? They ought to call N'Keal Harry "Brick and Mortar Bank" because he never is & was overdue to be replaced.

In the absence of something good being offered for Agholor, I think it comes down to competition. He's vulnerable based on last year and extra vuln. because of the Parker acquisition, but the binkies in the competition are starting from nothing.

Anybody think we give Thornton significant opportunities year 1?

Warning. From here on this is rambling stuff about what opportunities we give year 1 guys, with a side trip into "holy crap look how bad we were with Cam Newton."

Have we really done that in the past for high round WR picks? Harry played 1175 snaps over 3 years (just looked it up.) First year he missed 8 games with (we're going with the party line) an ankle injury suffered in camp. Then he plays, doesn't produce, doesn't gel with Brady (though Brdy did find himself defending him in the press), and year one ends with scant but not nonexistent hope. Year two he gets to play with Cam Newton. Everybody sucked. He was actually the no. 2 receiver on the team after Jakobi "I can get 729 yards with Cam Newton, come ON you know I belong" Meyers.

God damn we were bad in the passing game, look at this.

2020 New England Patriots Stats & Leaders - NFL Receiving Stats | FOX Sports

View 2020 New England Patriots Stats and team leaders.

www.foxsports.com

Anyway I just digressed, thats how posts get so long.

Then after S2, 2020, he's all pouty and Mac's like "Ain't nobody got time for this" and he puts up a strong rookie season with the guys brought in. Harry didn't rise to that occasion, if that big, physical, contest-every-ball guy is actually even in there outside of college. But my main point is not "hey maybe he's good," it's "We keep that cheap draftee around in NE but we make him fight for that spot on the field."

I kid a lot about still waiting for Chad Jackson to make his move, but be fair. We drafted him in 2006, Then went out and got Dante Stallworth, Wes Welker, and Randy Moss. I. Mean. Even stallworth went for 697 yards that year and I miss that team so. fing. much. Okay, point is Chad Jackson... what shot did he have? Answer, if he were Julian Edelman (09), a shot at hanging on until you're needed, and Jules took that deal & ran with it.

A lot of guys have been bring up Bethel Johnson in connection w Thornton - and all Bethel ever got to do was be a key ST guy.

So way off topic, I started to look at our high achieving draftees to see if [Player X] got the injured reserve treatment, and look at this ****.... I couldn't find anything saying Edelman was injured in camp, but look what he was dealing with....my man is a warrior... STAY DOWN Jules!

Julian Edelman Injury History & Updates

Julian Edelman Injury History & Updates. Our injury data is so comprehensive, even NFL teams have paid for it. Our algorithm even predicts injuries

www.draftsharks.com

I stopped bc its researchy and boring

The only thing this has to do w the topic is Thornton seems like a lock to be around. He's just not a lock to take anybody's spot.

The season's long AF now, and we're presently in good shape to get through it if the injury bug starts biting (4 deep at proven NFL level talent.) We can dump Agholor out of that equation if that's the plan and trust the binkies if we're shooting for more upside.

Also, what's Ty Montgomery, somebody, a ST guy? Because from what it looks like he's a twofer in plain old offensive terms, a JAG receiver AND a JAG running back.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I just believe that it is unlikely that he will be ready for a major role until mid to late in the season

You are discounting the new Pats' EZPASS playbook, now comes with a starter route tree and no sight adjustments.

 

[Pats2000]

That would not be a wise decision.

I believe you can protect a practice squad player, unless they did away with that after COVID

 

[rochrist]

I believe you can protect a practice squad player, unless they did away with that after COVID

As far as I know, you have to expose them to waivers to get them on.

 

[Salsalife]

To all the Tyquan dreamers, hanger ons, fan boys and shills check this article;

Tyquan Thornton, and a brief history of skinny NFL wide receivers

After everyone has spent months freaking out about whether 2nd-rounder Tyquan Thornton can succeed in the NFL, let’s look at a few guys that did.

www.patspulpit.com

I'm hyped, no cap!

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I believe you can protect a practice squad player

That's only for a few days before each game - they can be protected from Tuesday afternoon on.

Here are other changes:



What I don't know is if you can guarantee say Hoyer's salary and put him on the Practice Squad for three games (the max you can elevate a player for).

 

[PatsFanInVa]

To all the Tyquan dreamers, hanger ons, fan boys and shills check this article;

Tyquan Thornton, and a brief history of skinny NFL wide receivers

After everyone has spent months freaking out about whether 2nd-rounder Tyquan Thornton can succeed in the NFL, let’s look at a few guys that did.

www.patspulpit.com

I'm hyped, no cap!

What I'd love to see is a stat analysis just to clear all the smoke. So here are examples of skinny-makes-good, someone else can give us examples of skinny-doesnt-make-good, etc. What would stats predict if you just shoved all the bodies into a computer and said, here's the likelihood of hit and miss at these weights/heights, all else being equal. Of course it's possible you'd say not to deal for moss or draft edelman using that model, I'm just curious whether "skinny" is predictive or people just put it in their draft press. I know what everybody says the mechanics are of getting beat up at the LOS, but some do and some dont. Just like you can say "oh Julian Edelman, he's 5'9 yanno. If someone's taller you can't throw the ball up high to him, there's proof he'll never succeed." I just mean, statistically, how much of a decrement is skinniness if you digest the data. Anybody know?

 

[Wozzy]

That's only for a few days before each game - they can be protected from Tuesday afternoon on.

Here are other changes:



What I don't know is if you can guarantee say Hoyer's salary and put him on the Practice Squad for three games (the max you can elevate a player for).

I think they can pay him whatever they want to, also think that unless another team elevates him to their active roster the Pats can put him on their PS and use one of their protected spots to keep him there. I may be wrong though, the rules keep moving.

 

[Bruins29]

I dont thing we are going to have the depth everyone thinks we will. First, lets just get this out of the way. BB cant draft WR. I know I have been a little bit of a broken record on this. Its just not his bag baby.

So given that I am going to assume that all these new faces are not going to amount to much. And the stats are on my side. And please, dont argue with me about this....Please dont make me bring up how terrible the WR drafting has been. I am a probability guy, so I know what I am talking about.

So given that we gots us....

--Parker - Damaged Goods. Wont last the season. I can guarantee it. One full season in 7 years and he is older and more damaged now that ever. Plus he is cokky. He challenged D'Angelo Russell (an NBA player) to a game of Horse? Ok.........yeah, HEAD CASE

--Bourne is a good player.

--Agholor - We just paid how much for that production? I think BB is purposely trying to F up the team so bad that Kraft will want to sell and BB and some people are going to swoop in and buy it. What else would explain this. And dont call me some conspiracy theorist either - See Jonnu Smith for an example of the exact same thing.

Now I dont want to get off on a rant here - in the middle of ranking our WRs but you cant tell me that there isnt some ulterior motive going on. i mean BB is a pretty clever guy..... Yes we have to get past the whole can't draft, cant trade, cant GM and can't draft WRs but still dont tell me he is not smart. I mean wouldnt it be much better to be an OWNER than a Coach. See what I am saying. Lets look at this:

Coach/GM
sleep 5 hours a night
responsible for coaching and drafting
gotta travel
Gotta take orders from a guy who gets hand jobs are some crappy massage place (lets not get me going because I could rant about that for hours)
You have a limited salary
You have to deal with the players 24/7 and all their crap and excuses..

I could go full Stephen Bishop here regarding this but I think everyone gets it. Oh and BTW Steven Bishop is not to be confused with Michael Bishop who BB could have started when Bledsoe was sukking but I digress

Ok, where was I. Oh, so Coaching<Owning. Do I need to spell this out to the not-so-bright here?

Owners have much less to worry about that Coaching, more money, less travel and you dont have to deal with the BOBs and McDaniels of the worlds all day, much less the Tom Bradys. An owner has everyone kissing their ass. I would think BB would love that.

So, BB makes these awful moves, and tanks the team. He basically pulls a Rachel Phelps, making the value of the team tank so that Kraft bails and BB swoops in with any of several cut-off sleeve hoodie companies that he is currently endorsing and gets a great price and builds it back up,

I mean duh? Isnt this obvious?

So, anyway back the the original topic. * I got so sidetracked that I had to go back and see where I left off heehee

--Myers. Look. If I wanted a poor mans Brandon Lloyd. I would go and out find Brandon LLoyd. I have seen fish out of water (not to be confused with Yes Bassist Chris Squire's solo album - A Fish Out of Water....God rest his soul. An immense Talent on bass and vocals.)

that have flopped better than that. I mean I have seen a 95 lb skinny guy do a better flop (in the pool) than that. I mean Pluto Nash was a better flop than this.

I am not even going to get into the rest of them. Not worth my time.

 

[Wozzy]

What I'd love to see is a stat analysis just to clear all the smoke. So here are examples of skinny-makes-good, someone else can give us examples of skinny-doesnt-make-good, etc. What would stats predict if you just shoved all the bodies into a computer and said, here's the likelihood of hit and miss at these weights/heights, all else being equal. Of course it's possible you'd say not to deal for moss or draft edelman using that model, I'm just curious whether "skinny" is predictive or people just put it in their draft press. I know what everybody says the mechanics are of getting beat up at the LOS, but some do and some dont. Just like you can say "oh Julian Edelman, he's 5'9 yanno. If someone's taller you can't throw the ball up high to him, there's proof he'll never succeed." I just mean, statistically, how much of a decrement is skinniness if you digest the data. Anybody know?

I’d guess that there’s zero correlation to body size and success. Measurables matter of course, but a lesser athlete can also be a far better player than a great athlete… Chad Jackson and N’Keal had all the athletic talent in the world.

The reason the draft is a crapshoot is because there’s no way to quantify football smarts, attitude, desire or heart. Some rookies enter the league and put in the work, they’re inherently smart about what the entire offense is trying to accomplish and what the defense opposite him is trying to do to negate it.

In regards to Thornton, he is catching grief because BB supposedly stinks at drafting WR’s, because Baylor isn’t exactly a powerhouse or high flying passing team and because he’s tall and skinny… so it’s a forgone conclusion he will struggle.

All of this is nonsense, what previous Pats WR draft picks did has zero bearing on what Thornton does, he was dominant at Baylor, and lastly he is the same height and weight as Jameson Williams… widely regarded as the best WR in this draft class.

I’m excited to see all these rookies, it won’t surprise me when some turn out to be studs and others duds… draft picks are scratch tickets.

But Thornton is tall, really long, hyper fast and explosive… he also plays a physical game that belies his skinny frame and by his own admission he is a route studying fiend.

 

[Bruins29]

All of this is nonsense, what previous Pats WR draft picks did has zero bearing on what Thornton does,

P(A) = n(A)/n(S)

Oh and BTW that sentence above needs to have a period after it. Then you capitalize the start of your next sentence.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I’d guess that there’s zero correlation to body size and success. Measurables matter of course, but a lesser athlete can also be a far better player than a great athlete… Chad Jackson and N’Keal had all the athletic talent in the world.

The reason the draft is a crapshoot is because there’s no way to quantify football smarts, attitude, desire or heart. Some rookies enter the league and put in the work, they’re inherently smart about what the entire offense is trying to accomplish and what the defense opposite him is trying to do to negate it.

In regards to Thornton, he is catching grief because BB supposedly stinks at drafting WR’s, because Baylor isn’t exactly a powerhouse or high flying passing team and because he’s tall and skinny… so it’s a forgone conclusion he will struggle.

All of this is nonsense, what previous Pats WR draft picks did has zero bearing on what Thornton does, he was dominant at Baylor, and lastly he is the same height and weight as Jameson Williams… widely regarded as the best WR in this draft class.

I’m excited to see all these rookies, it won’t surprise me when some turn out to be studs and others duds… draft picks are scratch tickets.

But Thornton is tall, really long, hyper fast and explosive… he also plays a physical game that belies his skinny frame and by his own admission he is a route studying fiend.

Also high on TyThorn, but as you say, it's always a crap shoot. "Here are your scratchers, kids. good luck." I think the coaching staff knows this too, hence my feeling that a 500-yard guy (the Agholor downside) ain't worth what we paid, but it's also not nothing.

If only they could go out there for a while before the regular season, and play some sort of simulated games that don't count on the records just so that teams can evaluate players, then between games, see how guys look in "practice" situations... you know, running drills that aren't in the same structure as a game at all. They could call it the "prologue season" or the "almost season" or something catchier and shorter.

Then they could look at all their receivers, consider all the probabilities (and the price tags) and come up with an appropriate strategy.

I really think I'm onto something here.

 

[rochrist]

I dont thing we are going to have the depth everyone thinks we will. First, lets just get this out of the way. BB cant draft WR. I know I have been a little bit of a broken record on this. Its just not his bag baby.

So given that I am going to assume that all these new faces are not going to amount to much. And the stats are on my side. And please, dont argue with me about this....Please dont make me bring up how terrible the WR drafting has been. I am a probability guy, so I know what I am talking about.

So given that we gots us....

--Parker - Damaged Goods. Wont last the season. I can guarantee it. One full season in 7 years and he is older and more damaged now that ever. Plus he is cokky. He challenged D'Angelo Russell (an NBA player) to a game of Horse? Ok.........yeah, HEAD CASE

--Bourne is a good player.

--Agholor - We just paid how much for that production? I think BB is purposely trying to F up the team so bad that Kraft will want to sell and BB and some people are going to swoop in and buy it. What else would explain this. And dont call me some conspiracy theorist either - See Jonnu Smith for an example of the exact same thing.

Now I dont want to get off on a rant here - in the middle of ranking our WRs but you cant tell me that there isnt some ulterior motive going on. i mean BB is a pretty clever guy..... Yes we have to get past the whole can't draft, cant trade, cant GM and can't draft WRs but still dont tell me he is not smart. I mean wouldnt it be much better to be an OWNER than a Coach. See what I am saying. Lets look at this:

Coach/GM
sleep 5 hours a night
responsible for coaching and drafting
gotta travel
Gotta take orders from a guy who gets hand jobs are some crappy massage place (lets not get me going because I could rant about that for hours)
You have a limited salary
You have to deal with the players 24/7 and all their crap and excuses..

I could go full Stephen Bishop here regarding this but I think everyone gets it. Oh and BTW Steven Bishop is not to be confused with Michael Bishop who BB could have started when Bledsoe was sukking but I digress

Ok, where was I. Oh, so Coaching<Owning. Do I need to spell this out to the not-so-bright here?

Owners have much less to worry about that Coaching, more money, less travel and you dont have to deal with the BOBs and McDaniels of the worlds all day, much less the Tom Bradys. An owner has everyone kissing their ass. I would think BB would love that.

So, BB makes these awful moves, and tanks the team. He basically pulls a Rachel Phelps, making the value of the team tank so that Kraft bails and BB swoops in with any of several cut-off sleeve hoodie companies that he is currently endorsing and gets a great price and builds it back up,

I mean duh? Isnt this obvious?

So, anyway back the the original topic. * I got so sidetracked that I had to go back and see where I left off heehee

--Myers. Look. If I wanted a poor mans Brandon Lloyd. I would go and out find Brandon LLoyd. I have seen fish out of water (not to be confused with Yes Bassist Chris Squire's solo album - A Fish Out of Water....God rest his soul. An immense Talent on bass and vocals.)

that have flopped better than that. I mean I have seen a 95 lb skinny guy do a better flop (in the pool) than that. I mean Pluto Nash was a better flop than this.

I am not even going to get into the rest of them. Not worth my time.

I see what you did there.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Now I dont want to get off on a rant here - in the middle of ranking our WRs but you cant tell me that there isnt some ulterior motive going on.

Says he going off on a rant about a wild conspiracy theory.

Drafting is hard and people make mistakes. Drafting is really easy in retrospect. Not all trades work out - there is a reason why a player's previous team was happy to part with them. Not all free agent signings work out - players get injured or don't fit the scheme as well as you hoped. No need to descend into conspiracy land to explain bad signings.

 

[captain stone]

======================================
OF COURSE, someone will likely be injured in camp or the preseason and the 4 WR's will be set.

This receives my vote as Most Likely to Occur.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I dont thing we are going to have the depth everyone thinks we will. First, lets just get this out of the way. BB cant draft WR. I know I have been a little bit of a broken record on this. Its just not his bag baby.

So given that I am going to assume that all these new faces are not going to amount to much. And the stats are on my side. And please, dont argue with me about this....Please dont make me bring up how terrible the WR drafting has been. I am a probability guy, so I know what I am talking about.

So given that we gots us....

--Parker - Damaged Goods. Wont last the season. I can guarantee it. One full season in 7 years and he is older and more damaged now that ever. Plus he is cokky. He challenged D'Angelo Russell (an NBA player) to a game of Horse? Ok.........yeah, HEAD CASE

--Bourne is a good player.

--Agholor - We just paid how much for that production? I think BB is purposely trying to F up the team so bad that Kraft will want to sell and BB and some people are going to swoop in and buy it. What else would explain this. And dont call me some conspiracy theorist either - See Jonnu Smith for an example of the exact same thing.

Now I dont want to get off on a rant here - in the middle of ranking our WRs but you cant tell me that there isnt some ulterior motive going on. i mean BB is a pretty clever guy..... Yes we have to get past the whole can't draft, cant trade, cant GM and can't draft WRs but still dont tell me he is not smart. I mean wouldnt it be much better to be an OWNER than a Coach. See what I am saying. Lets look at this:

Coach/GM
sleep 5 hours a night
responsible for coaching and drafting
gotta travel
Gotta take orders from a guy who gets hand jobs are some crappy massage place (lets not get me going because I could rant about that for hours)
You have a limited salary
You have to deal with the players 24/7 and all their crap and excuses..

I could go full Stephen Bishop here regarding this but I think everyone gets it. Oh and BTW Steven Bishop is not to be confused with Michael Bishop who BB could have started when Bledsoe was sukking but I digress

Ok, where was I. Oh, so Coaching<Owning. Do I need to spell this out to the not-so-bright here?

Owners have much less to worry about that Coaching, more money, less travel and you dont have to deal with the BOBs and McDaniels of the worlds all day, much less the Tom Bradys. An owner has everyone kissing their ass. I would think BB would love that.

So, BB makes these awful moves, and tanks the team. He basically pulls a Rachel Phelps, making the value of the team tank so that Kraft bails and BB swoops in with any of several cut-off sleeve hoodie companies that he is currently endorsing and gets a great price and builds it back up,

I mean duh? Isnt this obvious?

So, anyway back the the original topic. * I got so sidetracked that I had to go back and see where I left off heehee

--Myers. Look. If I wanted a poor mans Brandon Lloyd. I would go and out find Brandon LLoyd. I have seen fish out of water (not to be confused with Yes Bassist Chris Squire's solo album - A Fish Out of Water....God rest his soul. An immense Talent on bass and vocals.)

that have flopped better than that. I mean I have seen a 95 lb skinny guy do a better flop (in the pool) than that. I mean Pluto Nash was a better flop than this.

I am not even going to get into the rest of them. Not worth my time.

NLE; DR

 

[WhatJustHappened]

I dont thing we are going to have the depth everyone thinks we will. First, lets just get this out of the way. BB cant draft WR. I know I have been a little bit of a broken record on this. Its just not his bag baby.

So given that I am going to assume that all these new faces are not going to amount to much. And the stats are on my side. And please, dont argue with me about this....Please dont make me bring up how terrible the WR drafting has been. I am a probability guy, so I know what I am talking about.

So given that we gots us....

--Parker - Damaged Goods. Wont last the season. I can guarantee it. One full season in 7 years and he is older and more damaged now that ever. Plus he is cokky. He challenged D'Angelo Russell (an NBA player) to a game of Horse? Ok.........yeah, HEAD CASE

--Bourne is a good player.

--Agholor - We just paid how much for that production? I think BB is purposely trying to F up the team so bad that Kraft will want to sell and BB and some people are going to swoop in and buy it. What else would explain this. And dont call me some conspiracy theorist either - See Jonnu Smith for an example of the exact same thing.

Now I dont want to get off on a rant here - in the middle of ranking our WRs but you cant tell me that there isnt some ulterior motive going on. i mean BB is a pretty clever guy..... Yes we have to get past the whole can't draft, cant trade, cant GM and can't draft WRs but still dont tell me he is not smart. I mean wouldnt it be much better to be an OWNER than a Coach. See what I am saying. Lets look at this:

Coach/GM
sleep 5 hours a night
responsible for coaching and drafting
gotta travel
Gotta take orders from a guy who gets hand jobs are some crappy massage place (lets not get me going because I could rant about that for hours)
You have a limited salary
You have to deal with the players 24/7 and all their crap and excuses..

I could go full Stephen Bishop here regarding this but I think everyone gets it. Oh and BTW Steven Bishop is not to be confused with Michael Bishop who BB could have started when Bledsoe was sukking but I digress

Ok, where was I. Oh, so Coaching<Owning. Do I need to spell this out to the not-so-bright here?

Owners have much less to worry about that Coaching, more money, less travel and you dont have to deal with the BOBs and McDaniels of the worlds all day, much less the Tom Bradys. An owner has everyone kissing their ass. I would think BB would love that.

So, BB makes these awful moves, and tanks the team. He basically pulls a Rachel Phelps, making the value of the team tank so that Kraft bails and BB swoops in with any of several cut-off sleeve hoodie companies that he is currently endorsing and gets a great price and builds it back up,

I mean duh? Isnt this obvious?

So, anyway back the the original topic. * I got so sidetracked that I had to go back and see where I left off heehee

--Myers. Look. If I wanted a poor mans Brandon Lloyd. I would go and out find Brandon LLoyd. I have seen fish out of water (not to be confused with Yes Bassist Chris Squire's solo album - A Fish Out of Water....God rest his soul. An immense Talent on bass and vocals.)

that have flopped better than that. I mean I have seen a 95 lb skinny guy do a better flop (in the pool) than that. I mean Pluto Nash was a better flop than this.

I am not even going to get into the rest of them. Not worth my time.

Yeah, Bill wants to tank..get fkn real, pull your pants up.
get real, Bill has NEVER planned to do anything BUT win a #Championship.
Stop being Ridonkulous.