Wickersham book discussion

[VectorPrime]

The Welker drop was worse than the Asante drop.

 

[Steve102]

The Welker drop was worse than the Asante drop.

Asante catches that ball and it's 1:16 to Lombardi and Immortality.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

The downside to midget WR’s- the margin of error is extremely small.

I played QB in high school and threw to guys who were 6’3 and 5’7. Unless the pass was perfect, the 5‘7 guy would have a hard time catching it because he has such a small wingspan. I’d have arguments with the smaller guy as the 6’3 guy would easily snatch the pass out of the air.

Just goes to show how accurate Tom Brady has been throughout his career throwing to midgets.

With that being said, the pass should've been caught. Everyone at the Super Bowl party I was at cringed at that drop and none of them were Pats fans.

Fantastic point

I have always pushed for tall WRs. Unfortunately the tall ones we drafted (Harry and Dobson) had severe flaws in other areas of their games

 

[TheRainMaker]

The Welker drop was worse than the Asante drop.

Asante actually dropped another pass on that drive that doesn't get talked about.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Fantastic point

I have always pushed for tall WRs. Unfortunately the tall ones we drafted (Harry and Dobson) had severe flaws in other areas of their games

Just look back at the passes thrown to Moss and Gronk. Those talented big bodied players had a wide margin of error. It's a QB's dream.

Passes to Welker had to be spot on with his alligator arms.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Just look back at the passes thrown to Moss and Gronk. Those talented big bodied players had a wide margin of error. It's a QB's dream.

Passes to Welker had to be spot on with his alligator arms.

yes. Brady also liked Brandon Lafell in 2014 because of his height and length.

Now look at MIke Evans 6’5 an absolute nightmare in the red zone for defenses. Brady hits him for a TD brady every game

 

[TheRainMaker]

yes. Brady also liked Brandon Lafell in 2014 because of his height and length.

Now look at MIke Evans 6’5 an absolute nightmare in the red zone for defenses. Brady hits him for a TD brady every game

Another good example as well with Lafell. He wasn't the greatest WR, but he had a larger catch radius.

How about Malcom Mitchell and his short stint in NE? He made some pretty tough grabs. He had a larger wingspan.

Aaron Dobson had some nice catches before falling off of a cliff.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Another good example as well with Lafell. He wasn't the greatest WR, but he had a larger catch radius.

How about Malcom Mitchell and his short stint in NE? He made some pretty tough grabs.

Aaron Dobson had some nice catches before falling off of a cliff.

Dobson is tough for me because I was screaming for collegiate superstar Keenan Allen in the second round (dropped for some bogus injury concern) ..but we went Dobson :/

I will say Dobson definitely showed some promise rookie year that 81 yard bomb against Pitt. However pats trainers screwed up with his ankle and he missed a lot of time with injury and never recovered to keep improving. he lost confidence and washed out fast

Malcolm Mitchell was 6’1 but played like 6’4. Super long wing span. He would have been our best WR we drafted but man he bit the dust fast with his bum knee. We hardly knew him

 

[lancerman]

Asante catches that ball and it's 1:16 to Lombardi and Immortality.

Asante couldn’t haul in a ball above his head that he barely had time to react to that he needed to jump as high as could for to only hit the top of his fingers and is 50/50 at best for most CB’s to haul in

Welker had a ball hit him square in both hands and he dropped it because he didn’t secure it properly before turning. Welker literally just needed to not turn and fall on his ass and the Pats 99% win that game.

Asante failed to make an astounding play. Welker failed to make a routine one

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Asante couldn’t haul in a ball above his head that he barely had time to react to that he needed to jump as high as could for to only hit the top of his fingers and is 50/50 at best for most CB’s to haul in

Welker had a ball hit him square in both hands and he dropped it because he didn’t secure it properly before turning. Welker literally just needed to not turn and fall on his ass and the Pats 99% win that game.

Asante failed to make an astounding play. Welker failed to make a routine one

Agreed

 

[TheRainMaker]

Dobson is tough for me because I was screaming for collegiate superstar Keenan Allen in the second round (dropped for some bogus injury concern) ..but we went Dobson :/

I will say Dobson definitely showed some promise rookie year that 81 yard bomb against Pitt. However pats trainers screwed up with his ankle and he missed a lot of time with injury and never recovered to keep improving. he lost confidence and washed out fast

Malcolm Mitchell was 6’1 but played like 6’4. Super long wing span. He would have been our best WR we drafted but man he bit the dust fast with his bum knee. We hardly knew him

I remember Kenan Allen's knock was lack of speed like Harry. However, Robert Woods was my first choice after the obvious Hopkins who was within NE's reach. They then traded out. Kennan Allen was my next choice.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

I remember Kenan Allen's knock was lack of speed like Harry. However, Robert Woods was my first choice after the obvious Hopkins who was within NE's reach. They then traded out. Kennan Allen was my next choice.

I forgot Hopkins fell to 27. Yikes could have had him.
Allen times a slow “40”…however his game tape showed elite separation and route running ability and he had insane hands. So that slow 40 was very deceiving. Allen put up monster stats in college way above what Dobson did at Marshall

 

[Steve102]

Asante couldn’t haul in a ball above his head that he barely had time to react to that he needed to jump as high as could for to only hit the top of his fingers and is 50/50 at best for most CB’s to haul in

Welker had a ball hit him square in both hands and he dropped it because he didn’t secure it properly before turning. Welker literally just needed to not turn and fall on his ass and the Pats 99% win that game.

Asante failed to make an astounding play. Welker failed to make a routine one

Standing alone without situations, they are astoundingly similar. Both plays should have been made. Asante is squared up to the ball, jumps and it doinks off his hands, a play that many NFL level corners make. Welker is forced to twist his body mid air because the throw is behind him and the ball hits him in the hands. The twisting body control is outstanding, but he fails to come up with a difficult NFL level catch. Far from routine, but a play he should have made.

Situationally, Welker's catch happened at 4:02 left at roughly the 20 yard line, with the Giants having one time out left. The Pats were up by two, could not simply run out the clock, and likely would have either run it to close to the 2:00 warning before kicking, going up by five, or killed the remainder of the clock by getting a TD and going up by 2 scores. Either way, there was more football to play.

Samuel's drop happened at 1:16 left and Pats up by four, with the Giants with two time outs left. If Samuel makes the play, let's assume he's tackled immediately. The Pats would likely run two plays, forcing the Giants to burn the remaining times outs. If we allow the average length of play to be 7 seconds, the Pats snap the ball on third down with 1:02 left. If the Pats did not convert, they would not have to punt until 22-23 seconds on the clock, depending on if they call the time out or take the delay of game to burn every second. The Giants would need to go the length of the field with likely 16-18 seconds on the clock. Tough ask. If the Pats converted on any of the run plays, it's kneel down time.

Oh, and Asante's drop had immortality staring straight at them, we all know the record to be attained there. Welker wouldn't even have been in the SB if the Raven's kicker Cundiff didn't miss the FG in the AFCCG. You could argue that the Pats didn't deserve to be there if not for the missed FG. Sorry, I will stand on this hill. Both catches should have been made, but Asante's is the larger gaff.

 

[venecol]

Standing alone without situations, they are astoundingly similar. Both plays should have been made. Asante is squared up to the ball, jumps and it doinks off his hands, a play that many NFL level corners make. Welker is forced to twist his body mid air because the throw is behind him and the ball hits him in the hands. The twisting body control is outstanding, but he fails to come up with a difficult NFL level catch. Far from routine, but a play he should have made.

Situationally, Welker's catch happened at 4:02 left at roughly the 20 yard line, with the Giants having one time out left. The Pats were up by two, could not simply run out the clock, and likely would have either run it to close to the 2:00 warning before kicking, going up by five, or killed the remainder of the clock by getting a TD and going up by 2 scores. Either way, there was more football to play.

Samuel's drop happened at 1:16 left and Pats up by four, with the Giants with two time outs left. If Samuel makes the play, let's assume he's tackled immediately. The Pats would likely run two plays, forcing the Giants to burn the remaining times outs. If we allow the average length of play to be 7 seconds, the Pats snap the ball on third down with 1:02 left. If the Pats did not convert, they would not have to punt until 22-23 seconds on the clock, depending on if they call the time out or take the delay of game to burn every second. The Giants would need to go the length of the field with likely 16-18 seconds on the clock. Tough ask. If the Pats converted on any of the run plays, it's kneel down time.

Oh, and Asante's drop had immortality staring straight at them, we all know the record to be attained there. Welker wouldn't even have been in the SB if the Raven's kicker Cundiff didn't miss the FG in the AFCCG. You could argue that the Pats didn't deserve to be there if not for the missed FG. Sorry, I will stand on this hill. Both catches should have been made, but Asante's is the larger gaff.

Are you blaming the loss on Asante?

 

[Pats1971]

Standing alone without situations, they are astoundingly similar. Both plays should have been made. Asante is squared up to the ball, jumps and it doinks off his hands, a play that many NFL level corners make. Welker is forced to twist his body mid air because the throw is behind him and the ball hits him in the hands. The twisting body control is outstanding, but he fails to come up with a difficult NFL level catch. Far from routine, but a play he should have made.

Situationally, Welker's catch happened at 4:02 left at roughly the 20 yard line, with the Giants having one time out left. The Pats were up by two, could not simply run out the clock, and likely would have either run it to close to the 2:00 warning before kicking, going up by five, or killed the remainder of the clock by getting a TD and going up by 2 scores. Either way, there was more football to play.

Samuel's drop happened at 1:16 left and Pats up by four, with the Giants with two time outs left. If Samuel makes the play, let's assume he's tackled immediately. The Pats would likely run two plays, forcing the Giants to burn the remaining times outs. If we allow the average length of play to be 7 seconds, the Pats snap the ball on third down with 1:02 left. If the Pats did not convert, they would not have to punt until 22-23 seconds on the clock, depending on if they call the time out or take the delay of game to burn every second. The Giants would need to go the length of the field with likely 16-18 seconds on the clock. Tough ask. If the Pats converted on any of the run plays, it's kneel down time.

Oh, and Asante's drop had immortality staring straight at them, we all know the record to be attained there. Welker wouldn't even have been in the SB if the Raven's kicker Cundiff didn't miss the FG in the AFCCG. You could argue that the Pats didn't deserve to be there if not for the missed FG. Sorry, I will stand on this hill. Both catches should have been made, but Asante's is the larger gaff.

Asante's catch would have been harder. It was pretty high up there. Welker drop was at facemask level. I think both catches would have won the superbowl for pats.

 

[sb1]

More observations from the book from the early dynasty days:
- Bill started to groom Brady almost like an interim offensive coordinator (!) when Weis was having surgery in 2002. Never knew. Almost like Bill was preparing to move on from Weis and wanted to make his QB and offense transition-proof.
- Brady absorbed and learned a lot more from Peyton Manning than we know
- BB felt he was embarrassed by Manning in that 2004 season opener when Manning shredded the cover 2. For the AFCCG changed it to a disguised cover 2 out of a cover 4. Worked so well that he went to a 1-10 defense to milk the clock with the Pats up big. That worked too. LOL
- BB felt the Super Bowl is the one game that can sap a team’s defense like no other. He felt his defense ran out of gas in SB38 and he felt he was partly to blame for that since he only dressed 5 DL instead of 6 so he couldn’t rotate fresh legs in and out. That changed in SB39. He also told his team to hydrate well and not do much before the game. Also noticed the Eagles were doing a training camp drill that would take a lot out of them.
- Now I’m not so sure the Eagles not going into hurry-up late in SB39 was Andy Reid’s fault. It was McNabb. Interesting.

“Something was wrong with McNabb. He was panting and struggling to call plays. Either had the wind knocked out of him from a Bruschi hit…or he was running out of gas which is the exact thing Belichick had warned his own team about. Some Eagles insisted that McNabb threw up on the field which he denied. Whatever was happening to him he was sluggish and fading the biggest moment on the biggest stage. TO…later took a shot at him saying “I’m not the one who got tired in the Super Bowl”


- BB wanted to keep Vinateri here but also chose to gamble that AV would accept a hometown discount thinking AV wouldn’t want to leave NE where he was a legend and loved by the fans. He chose wrong.

 

[robbomango]

I've looked at it a zillion times and broken it down on here using gifs, and I realize people will have different opinions, but this is what I strongly believe. The play is a fairly routine pass by Brady who puts the ball in the right area; if you want to get down to milimeters, that's a different story. It's a pass that gets caught about 99% of the time.

The play is essentially an optical illusion from the broadcast angle; it appears as though Welker has a very difficult catch because the ball is off target, causing him to whip lash back towards it. In reality, if you slow it down and look at the still images, he has a certain catch and is turning to gain more yards upfield. The problem is he mis-times the pass, closes too quickly. and doesn't assure the catch before turning.

View attachment 36554

View attachment 36557

The problem is that he closes his hands to quickly, right on the nose of the ball.

View attachment 36556

As for the optical illusion, I referred to...take a look at Welker's body as the ball comes out. Within a fraction of a second, he realizes it's dropped (because it's punched off his closed hands). He immediately reaches his arms towards the ball in hopes of recovering it, and his leg whips around to try to change direction towards the loose ball. That's why it appears, especially from the broadcast angle, that Welker had to whip his body towards the ball in an attempt to make a tough catch. In reality, the unnatural body movement is a second attempt to reposition and catch.

View attachment 36553

Found this watching Gronk highlights, same throw and catch, probably more difficult. He caught it with ease, at 4:19...

 

[Pats1971]

Found this watching Gronk highlights, same throw and catch, probably more difficult. He caught it with ease, at 4:19...

Welker should have caught it, and for anyone saying that was a bad throw, if Brady leads him there. Welker dies on the field and the ball is going back the other way. When a football hits you in both hands at facemask level, you catch it.

By the way, good find on the video. I remember plays and want to show people a play and can just never find it. lol. I need a full catalog of plays from the patriots the last 20 years.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

All's it will take is one news organization that hates football and it'll be on. Goodell's house or cards will crumble. I don't think it'll happen only because any reporter good enough to dig into this is either beholden to the league (sports reporter) or won't have the access. To your point, that gives Goodell time enough to make sure this thing never sees the light of day.

Maybe that woman reporter from Washington who was great on deflategate, was it Sally something?

 

[cmasspatsfan]

bb lacks character.

You can't compare your job to professional football, Lombardi was an ass too but that's what it takes to be successful long term in the NFL. They actually named a trophy out of that ass Lombardi.