Who streched the field in 03 and 04?

[Froob]

Personally I liked Givens more than Branch. Always came up with a clutch touchdown in the playoffs. Letting both Givens and Branch go probably did cost them a superbowl in 06. Givens and Branch don't drop easy touchdowns vs indy. Givens supposedly wants to make a return to the nfl if his knee ever heals up right. What a story that would be if he returns to the pats.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Branch, Givens, Patten and Brown... Thats a pretty good group.
No superstar, but a solid group.

Thing is Branch and Givens were only second and third year players who saw little action in 2002 and Branch missed half of 2004 while Troy was battling injuries on the back nine and Patten had 9 receptions in 2004... Yet we managed to get it done. People always act as if in removing a player you leave the position blank... We got to the friggin' AFCC with Reche Caldwell and a revolving cast of JAGS. Some of you have developed selective memory...since 2007. Football players committed to winning find a way to win.
Football players committed to getting their re$pect usually end their careers bouncing from contract to contract...

 

[Ring 6]

Better Coaches
Better Defense
Belichick was at the height of his mastery
Better Team

Not much more can be said here

2 of those teams were 1-3 and 2-2 at this point.
Shouldn't we let this team play games before we decide how good it is?
So far its had one bad half, which frankly had Randy Moss written all over it.

 

[Kontradiction]

If by "stretch the field" you mean "made the field seem a lot longer than it was", then our defense stretched the field in 2003 and 2004.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

If by "stretch the field" you mean "made the field seem a lot longer than it was", then our defense stretched the field in 2003 and 2004.

I turned back on to come check who was around here tonight on this memorable day. Guess who I see?

Kontra, it's heartening to see you're still at it, and in impeccably fine form, I might add. Nicely put up there. Even at this relatively late hour, yer still going strong.

I appreciate your devotion. You, and a few others, make this place pretty cool.

We'll muddle thru this just fine, you just watch.

Goodnight, Homeslice

 

[shirtsleeve]

Deion Branch stretched the field.

My God, have we forgotten about Branch catching long downfield bombs during the playoffs?

I have no doubt that Tate is going to get better and hopefully become a Branch for us. Welker will do Troy Brown.

Hernandez can easily do David Givens.

Hopefully BenJarvus will turn into Corey Dillon.

BUT, make no mistake: the success of the running game the other night, with 6 men in the box, occurred because of the attention the Phins were paying to Randy Moss.

Two more scary thoughts: I always said that getting Moss made up for losing Branch, but I say that no more. Branch = 2006 Super Bowl win.
Second thought, if we had this year's version of Benjarvus Green Ellis running for us against the Giants in 2007, we win that Super Bowl as well. The Giants were begging us to do what we did to the Dolphins.

More brillience! Wow! I missed this place. For posts like this.

 

[emoney_33]

2 of those teams were 1-3 and 2-2 at this point.
Shouldn't we let this team play games before we decide how good it is?
So far its had one bad half, which frankly had Randy Moss written all over it.

None of those teams would have been worse with an elite receiver like Moss on it. We won IN SPITE of the lack of receiving talent, not because of it. If the defense and coaching can grow this year of course we have a chance but that doesn't mean taking Moss off the field helps the team. Any behind the scenes stuff we are just left to speculate.

 

[emoney_33]

Thing is Branch and Givens were only second and third year players who saw little action in 2002 and Branch missed half of 2004 while Troy was battling injuries on the back nine and Patten had 9 receptions in 2004... Yet we managed to get it done. People always act as if in removing a player you leave the position blank... We got to the friggin' AFCC with Reche Caldwell and a revolving cast of JAGS. Some of you have developed selective memory...since 2007. Football players committed to winning find a way to win.
Football players committed to getting their re$pect usually end their careers bouncing from contract to contract...

So would you say junior seau was not commited to winning?

And how is Deion Branch "commited to winning" when he holds out in 2006 and hasn't won anything since 04?

 

[Isaac]

Troy Brown?!? You might have meant David Patten or possibly David Givens. Brown was never, ever a deep threat.

True, but this did back nice memories of the overtime TD in Miami.

I think the defense was just stunned that he even tried to go past them.

 

[The_Riddler]

For all those who are complaining that now we have no one to stretch the field and that our passing game will obviously become non existent....answer this question, because we had a pretty good passing game both of those years

We also had Corey Dillon

 

[Ring 6]

None of those teams would have been worse with an elite receiver like Moss on it. We won IN SPITE of the lack of receiving talent, not because of it. If the defense and coaching can grow this year of course we have a chance but that doesn't mean taking Moss off the field helps the team. Any behind the scenes stuff we are just left to speculate.

Thats not an iron clad fact. There is no doubt this team developed a different offensive idnetity with Moss. That adds something, but takes away other things.
I don't think we are a better team without Moss, but come on the Moss of 2010 is a faint shadow of the Moss of 07-09. If its not because of sulking then his skills have eroded.
Behind the scenes speculation is no different than saying an offense that isn't reliant on Moss isnt better.
The difference is that we will see how the offense does, but you'd have to be burying your head in the sand to not admit that this move was all about the behind the scenes stuff and Moss beding moe trouble than good.

Or are you really saying that Moss is the same player (with the same attitude) he was from 07-09 and BB spend the last 5 weeks trying to get rid of that player in order to secure the late 3rd round pick that he couldnt live without? If you think that you are either delusional or not able to look objectively at what went on.
Moss ran himself out of town. His past allowed us to grab a 3rd rounder instead of releasing him.

 

[upstater1]

Thing is Branch and Givens were only second and third year players who saw little action in 2002 and Branch missed half of 2004 while Troy was battling injuries on the back nine and Patten had 9 receptions in 2004... Yet we managed to get it done. People always act as if in removing a player you leave the position blank... We got to the friggin' AFCC with Reche Caldwell and a revolving cast of JAGS. Some of you have developed selective memory...since 2007. Football players committed to winning find a way to win.
Football players committed to getting their re$pect usually end their careers bouncing from contract to contract...

I just remember it different than you. I remember Brady being an all-world QB because he made these horrid receivers look good, but the offense was not good. That victory over the Chargers was all spit and blood.

 

[emoney_33]

Thats not an iron clad fact. There is no doubt this team developed a different offensive idnetity with Moss. That adds something, but takes away other things.
I don't think we are a better team without Moss, but come on the Moss of 2010 is a faint shadow of the Moss of 07-09. If its not because of sulking then his skills have eroded.

Aside from his odd mentality, he physically looked fine to me so far in 2010. He's been blowing by defenders just as well as last year. Nothing is an "iron clad" fact, but come on now. Put any elite receiver on the 03/04 team, all else being equal, and they are better.

Behind the scenes speculation is no different than saying an offense that isn't reliant on Moss isnt better.
The difference is that we will see how the offense does, but you'd have to be burying your head in the sand to not admit that this move was all about the behind the scenes stuff and Moss beding moe trouble than good.

They weren't reliant on Moss thus far in 2010 and have the #1 offense in points so far. I'm not arguing that it was a bad trade as I don't have the information that BB has I can't make that type of analysis. I'm only disputing the notion that the team could be better -on- the field because they have won before without Moss.

Or are you really saying that Moss is the same player (with the same attitude) he was from 07-09 and BB spend the last 5 weeks trying to get rid of that player in order to secure the late 3rd round pick that he couldnt live without?

Way to make stuff up, where do you get that he was trying to trade him for 5 weeks? No doubt the Vikes may have been contacting the Patriots more than just yesterday but let's just stop pretending we know what's going on behind the scenes here. He'd have gotten more than a 3rd if he was shopping him since preseason.

If you think that you are either delusional or not able to look objectively at what went on.
Moss ran himself out of town. His past allowed us to grab a 3rd rounder instead of releasing him.

Again, I'm not getting into speculating about whether BB's information makes the trade worth it. He made it, it's done, I'm still rooting for anyone and everyone who puts on a Patriots uniform. The one thing I'm disputing is some people's notion that Moss somehow made the offense -worse- and without him they all of a sudden are -better-. That is beyond absurd.

 

[upstater1]

So would you say junior seau was not commited to winning?

And how is Deion Branch "commited to winning" when he holds out in 2006 and hasn't won anything since 04?

Sometimes you just have to pay these guys. I'm not saying they should have paid Moss, but a lot more money gets wasted on Jag vets you trade for who pull down $2 or $3 million a year than just paying Branch the $7 million.

 

[emoney_33]

Sometimes you just have to pay these guys. I'm not saying they should have paid Moss, but a lot more money gets wasted on Jag vets you trade for who pull down $2 or $3 million a year than just paying Branch the $7 million.

They used his $7 million on Moss, Stallworth and Welker for 2007...

 

[Ring 6]

Aside from his odd mentality, he physically looked fine to me so far in 2010. He's been blowing by defenders just as well as last year. Nothing is an "iron clad" fact, but come on now. Put any elite receiver on the 03/04 team, all else being equal, and they are better.

He caught 9 passes in 4 games. Did he ever produce so little in a 4 game stretch?
Who did he blow by? He didnt show up Monday. He was pathetic in the 2nd half vs the Jets, and in his best games was a shadow of the old Moss.
But all things are not equal, if you change your style of offense. Would those teams have been well served to throw at Moss 22 times in 4 games and only complete 9?
We traded the 2010 Moss, not the 2007 Moss, and if the skills are still the same, then the effort fell off a cliff.

They weren't reliant on Moss thus far in 2010 and have the #1 offense in points so far. I'm not arguing that it was a bad trade as I don't have the information that BB has I can't make that type of analysis. I'm only disputing the notion that the team could be better -on- the field because they have won before without Moss.

I will tell you if we could go back and play the Jets game without him we would have been better. The other 3 games it would have made little difference.
I understand your point, but additiion by subtraction is a real dynamic.

Way to make stuff up, where do you get that he was trying to trade him for 5 weeks?

It has been reported all day that after Moss comments on opening day, BB sought out trades. I guess thats 4 weeks, but does that really change the point?

No doubt the Vikes may have been contacting the Patriots more than just yesterday but let's just stop pretending we know what's going on behind the scenes here. He'd have gotten more than a 3rd if he was shopping him since preseason.

I dont know how you get more than a 3rd. He is in the last year of his contract. We paid a 4th for a 28 year old Moss.

Again, I'm not getting into speculating about whether BB's information makes the trade worth it. He made it, it's done, I'm still rooting for anyone and everyone who puts on a Patriots uniform. The one thing I'm disputing is some people's notion that Moss somehow made the offense -worse- and without him they all of a sudden are -better-. That is beyond absurd.

Well its just lacking in any kind of insight to think this happens if there aren't severe lockerroom and attitude issues, and many insiders are saying so.
Here is what I think.
If Moss isnt going to give any effort, which defintely has been the case, at least at times this year, his value is as a decoy. If Tom Brady trusts Moss to give 100% and Moss doesnt, we are definitely better without him.
In the 2nd half of the Jets game Brady went to Moss on plays Moss makes in his sleep and Moss gave way less than 100%. Moss caused Brady to make mistakes by trusting him. That screws up an offense and a team more than any positive Moss can bring would help.

I saw it this season, but was not ready to dismiss that there were mitigating factors, but BB convinced me my instinct was correct.

BB did not trade for a 3rd round pick today, he dumped Randy Moss. The 3rd was just a nice parting gift. If you think BB would dump him if his attitude wasnt horrendous I don't know what to say.

 

[Jmacz]

Hopefully BenJarvus will turn into Corey Dillon.

You got the wrong super bowl HB, I say he's more of a Antoine Smith type back. Seems like he could be a tad better though.

 

[Calciumee]

They had a better defense that year, and better coaches.

I am sure, I might be wrong, that a D doesn't stretch the field for the O!

 

[WelshPat]

Football players committed to getting their re$pect usually end their careers bouncing from contract to contract...

Whats wrong with a player playing for $? It's a short career, any player who doesn't try and make as much money as they can is making a huge mistake.

Now, giving up some money to stay in a team your happy with/ settled in the area etc i understand. But when it's millions of $, i blame no player for taking the money.

 

[emoney_33]

He caught 9 passes in 4 games. Did he ever produce so little in a 4 game stretch?
Who did he blow by?

Revis. Monday, they showed a play where Vontae Davis was about 20-30 yards back and Moss just zoomed past him, even though the ball was never thrown to him. His speed is there, for you to suggest otherwise indicates you haven't paid attention to it.

He didnt show up Monday. He was pathetic in the 2nd half vs the Jets, and in his best games was a shadow of the old Moss.

He showed up on Monday, you need to watch the game without your anti-Moss bias. Even Curran claims that he ran all out on every last play. Mike Nolan limited him to 1 catch in Denver last year as well. You can take away ANY one player if you want (except QB really).

But all things are not equal, if you change your style of offense. Would those teams have been well served to throw at Moss 22 times in 4 games and only complete 9?
We traded the 2010 Moss, not the 2007 Moss, and if the skills are still the same, then the effort fell off a cliff.

Yes because opposing defenses can't possibly study tape and adapt/adjust to the Patriots style. Also Bill O'Brien, who Bill Belichick determined was not worthy of OC title is beyond reproach. Everything from 2007 and 2010 are equivalent except Moss' skills and/or effort

I will tell you if we could go back and play the Jets game without him we would have been better. The other 3 games it would have made little difference.
I understand your point, but additiion by subtraction is a real dynamic.

I can tell you that you are delusional, we score at LEAST 7 fewer points against the Jets without him. Yes we SHOULD have scored more, he didn't play his best, he dropped a pass or 2, but the entire offense played like CRAP including Brady. For you to scapegoat Moss for that game is ridiculous.

It has been reported all day that after Moss comments on opening day, BB sought out trades. I guess thats 4 weeks, but does that really change the point?

I have not seen that reported.

Well its just lacking in any kind of insight to think this happens if there aren't severe lockerroom and attitude issues, and many insiders are saying so.

Didn't you spend countless posts yelling at BradyFTW because you believed he even hinted that jays had insight?

Here is what I think.
If Moss isnt going to give any effort, which defintely has been the case, at least at times this year, his value is as a decoy. If Tom Brady trusts Moss to give 100% and Moss doesnt, we are definitely better without him.
In the 2nd half of the Jets game Brady went to Moss on plays Moss makes in his sleep and Moss gave way less than 100%. Moss caused Brady to make mistakes by trusting him. That screws up an offense and a team more than any positive Moss can bring would help.

There were only 2 plays that Moss really -should- have had that he didn't. Over the middle and the drop in the endzone. Everything else was completely on Brady. It's funny that Moss comes inches away from SAVING Brady on that 2nd INT and it's suddenly a play he "makes in his sleep".

I saw it this season, but was not ready to dismiss that there were mitigating factors, but BB convinced me my instinct was correct.

Of course, you make up your mind and then see everything afterwards as proof of your conclusion

BB did not trade for a 3rd round pick today, he dumped Randy Moss. The 3rd was just a nice parting gift. If you think BB would dump him if his attitude wasnt horrendous I don't know what to say.

Tthere's frequently more than meets the eye.