Who Do You Trust To Make The Staff Changes?

[upstater1]

You think JJ should be on the list of guys who don't know what they are doing? I'm not so sure about that. He's built some competitive teams over the years as the GM. What he can't do is step away from the limelight long enough to let the coach work without interference. He's always meddling.

Not too sure about all of these, just for JJ it's 30 years without a Super Bowl and constant changes of coaching, etc., doesn't give the feel of stability.

I've read the new Washington owner and the Carolina owner are also big time meddlers as well, but obviously Washington is winning for now.

These are long term questions.

 

[Real fan 02]

Steve B was under contract. They told him he could stay. He was never asked to remain- there is a difference, It left him in limbo with an undefined role. he was never offered the DC position. Don't make it sound like a choice. He was frozen out. From Day 1 it was Demarcus Covingtons job. They did the same **** to Troy Brown.

could give two flying Effs about BoB.

SB, Brian and Billy O, were all asked to stay.. In Billy Os' own words he said mayo deserves to assemble his own staff. SB went to greener pastures on his own instead of remaining here. Had SB chose to stay covington would be in a different role in the defense. Case in point Brian remaining the safeties coach as he chose to stay!

 

[Real fan 02]

Yeah, I think those reports were spin to set the table for SpongeBob's pre-ordained hiring decision. Mayo may have stood at the front of the room and have done the talking but it was SB's powerpoints that he was speaking from.

As Steve Bs salary was commensurate with his title of DC. So you're right.

 

[Toofy]

The first question any franchise has to ask is: What is the structure of responsibility? Who is going to be accountable to whom?

Putting Wolf in charge, as you suggest, MG, would be my least favoured option. I think it is a recipe for disaster -- all the more so because I have yet to see evidence that Wolf is good at his own job.

If you divide authority and things don't go well, everyone has an incentive to point the finger at the other guys (the coaches at the Front Office and vice versa). It's even worse if you put the Front Office (GM) above the coach because personnel is a function parallel to coaching and needs to be judged too. Parcells was quite right: if you want the coach to cook dinner, you've got to let him buy the groceries.

We are far enough into this season to see that very little has gone right.

The off-season was terrible. Okorafor, Anderson, Gibson, Osborn ... And then Brissett! $7m for a worse QB than either Zappe or Jones! As for the draft, has anyone except Maye shown anything yet? D- for the Front Office.​

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The two co-ordinators are extremely unimpressive. No running game. Limited play design and predictable play calling. Steep regression in defense. Can't stop the run. No pass rush. D- for the coaching staff.​

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I can only see two positives for the season:

(1) Maye could be the answer at quarterback.​

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That isn't established yet -- and drafting him doesn't make Wolf a good GM. The team didn't even have the choice to make that Chicago and Washington had to: it was Maye or trade down -- and, since the team absolutely needed a quarterback, that would have been nuts.​

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(2) The team want to play hard for Mayo.​

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That shouldn't be underestimated. I remember Belichick complaining in 2009 that he "can't get the team to play for him". But it can wear out if the team keeps on losing. The humiliation of the Jacksonville game in London already shows that.​

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So I guess that my answer has to be a combination of (3) and (2). Let Mayo re-tool the coaching staff and, perhaps, have the Krafts shake up the personnel department too.

It's just possible that Mayo can learn on the job and, though he'll never be a football savant like Belichick, that he can find people who are better at running offense and defense than those there now to complement his ability to relate to his players.

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Now tell me why would any upstart OC or DC want to come to work for patriots under Mayo.

I don't have anything against Mayo, but he has not been anywhere outside patriots. So not sure what contacts he has to get stud OC or DC to work under him.

Covington was already there while wolf got AVP as no one wanted to come under Mayo.

So if we know the coaching is a problem and no good coaches want to come and work under Mayo, how can you still retain Mayo though it's not completely his fault.

Kraft screwed up pats, Maye and Mayo ina single shot .

 

[Real fan 02]

Now tell me why would any upstart OC or DC want to come to work for patriots under Mayo.

I don't have anything against Mayo, but he has not been anywhere outside patriots. So not sure what contacts he has to get stud OC or DC to work under him.

Covington was already there while wolf got AVP as no one wanted to come under Mayo.

So if we know the coaching is a problem and no good coaches want to come and work under Mayo, how can you still retain Mayo though it's not completely his fault.

Kraft screwed up pats, Maye and Mayo ina single shot .

I brought up something on Mayo yesterday. For example Mayo did aspire to leave the organization to get experience elsewhere.. he turned down DC and I believe a HC interview with Atlanta, Panthers, Cleveland. RK sweetened the pot for him with the successor clause in his contract for him to stay. As he wasn't going to stay here without it. Smart business on his part.

The plan was for him to "eventually " succeed bill "whenever " bill decided to step away. Bill knew entirely of Mayo's contract. As ty law said bill knew everyone's contract. The on field product eroded to the point where a change was felt it was needed. So here we are. Mayo's 2,3 years ahead of schedule as a HC. Now he has to learn on the job and get through the rigors of coaching because it's not going to be easy for him. This is what he wanted!

 

[Pape]

SB, Brian and Billy O, were all asked to stay.. In Billy Os' own words he said mayo deserves to assemble his own staff. SB went to greener pastures on his own instead of remaining here. Had SB chose to stay covington would be in a different role in the defense. Case in point Brian remaining the safeties coach as he chose to stay!

That is absolutely not the case, and is a deliberately misleading statement.

Mayo was hired 1/12

Steve and Brian were "offered contracts", No terms were established.

Covington, Hodges & Parker interviews for DC announced - 1/19
Covington hired as DC 1/27.

At no point was there even a breath of a rumor that Steve was offered the position, and was never interviewed for any specific role with the team. Reese floated a rumor that he was possibly the asst head coach candidate. An interview was never announced. They never filled that role. They left him with an option that reads "we'll find a spot for you". He didn't even interview for the washington job until 2/2. They froze him out for Covington.

 

[Real fan 02]

That is absolutely not the case, and is a deliberately misleading statement.

Mayo was hired 1/12

Steve and Brian were "offered contracts", No terms were established.

Covington, Hodges & Parker interviews for DC announced - 1/19
Covington hired as DC 1/27.

At no point was there even a breath of a rumor that Steve was offered the position, and was never interviewed for any specific role with the team. Reese floated a rumor that he was possibly the asst head coach candidate. An interview was never announced. They never filled that role. They left him with an option that reads "we'll find a spot for you".

There is nothing that I said is at all anything of a misleading aspect. If you simply disagree that fine. However I will believe what is reported by Curran and Perry around the time. Also Billy O has said it on weei and on games with names that he told mayo you deserve to assemble your own staff.

The DC Interview was a ******** pixie dust Interview. SB CHOSE to go his own way as I clearly explained . Brian said in HIS own words in his Interview " I grew up here, my dad and running around as a kid. I chose to stay and want to be part of the organization we are building back under coach mayo. "

 

[n1997y]

If your owner doesn't know what he's doing, you have no chance:

1. Jerry Jones
2. Dan Snyder
3. Mark Davis
4. Irsay
5. Spanos
6. I'm sure there are other examples...

If the owner cant get out of his own way and understand he knows very little about football coaching, you have no chance.

You think JJ should be on the list of guys who don't know what they are doing? I'm not so sure about that. He's built some competitive teams over the years as the GM. What he can't do is step away from the limelight long enough to let the coach work without interference. He's always meddling.

I was going to say, I assume that list is not in any order of competence.

Irsay and Snyder are certainly worse, by orders of magnitude, than Jones and Davis. I’m not familiar enough with Spanos to know how to rank him, which tells me he can’t possibly be as bad as Snyder and Irsay. So that leaves those two at the top of that dung heap.

 

[Real fan 02]

SB, Brian and Billy O, were all asked to stay.. In Billy Os' own words he said mayo deserves to assemble his own staff. SB went to greener pastures on his own instead of remaining here. Had SB chose to stay covington would be in a different role in the defense. Case in point Brian remaining the safeties coach as he chose to stay!

@ pape I owe you a correction. Your right they left the door open for them to stay if they wanted. Your right !! My bad

 

[Pape]

The DC Interview was a ******** pixie dust Interview.

This is the only honest thing you said.

The DC interviews were ******** because Covington already had the job.

Whats Steve supposed to do? Take a demotion to work as the OLB coach when he was the guy who ran the defense? Come on. He was Iced Out.

He "chose" to leave because they left him with no options. You honestly think the DC role at Washington is greener pastures vs being given the chance to be a DC in the NFL? jfc.

 

[Patsfan1645]

I brought up something on Mayo yesterday. For example Mayo did aspire to leave the organization to get experience elsewhere.. he turned down DC and I believe a HC interview with Atlanta, Panthers, Cleveland. RK sweetened the pot for him with the successor clause in his contract for him to stay. As he wasn't going to stay here without it. Smart business on his part.

The plan was for him to "eventually " succeed bill "whenever " bill decided to step away. Bill knew entirely of Mayo's contract. As ty law said bill knew everyone's contract. The on field product eroded to the point where a change was felt it was needed. So here we are. Mayo's 2,3 years ahead of schedule as a HC. Now he has to learn on the job and get through the rigors of coaching because it's not going to be easy for him. This is what he wanted!

You mention he is 2 -3 years ahead of schedule. I don't know what anyone has seen from him with regards to coaching that leads them to believe the light bulb will simply come on one day. What exactly was his role on the defense last year? All I ever noticed him do was walk around with a clipboard. I believe Bill and Steve coached 99% of what you saw on the field defensively last year. I would like to be optimistic about his future but I have seen nothing this season that leads me to believe he is going to one day "get it". And I certainly haven't seen anything in his limited coaching history that makes me feel that this guy is an NFL coach. The guy was a solid player and well liked, but there is no shade for him to stand in anymore as he is now front and center and being exposed.

 

[Real fan 02]

This is the only honest thing you said.

The DC interviews were ******** because Covington already had the job.

Whats Steve supposed to do? Take a demotion to work as the OLB coach when he was the guy who ran the defense? Come on. He was Iced Out.

He "chose" to leave because they left him with no options. You honestly think the DC role at Washington is greener pastures vs being given the chance to be a DC in the NFL? jfc.

Even though I don't like u saying the only honest thing I said.. lol your still my guy.. It's just 2 poster's expression of thier views. You have your interpretation and I have mines. My post are always honest on my opinion and perception.

But it's all good brother! Your right on your assessment of that.

 

[Real fan 02]

You mention he is 2 -3 years ahead of schedule. I don't know what anyone has seen from him with regards to coaching that leads them to believe the light bulb will simply come on one day. What exactly was his role on the defense last year? All I ever noticed him do was walk around with a clipboard. I believe Bill and Steve coached 99% of what you saw on the field defensively last year. I would like to be optimistic about his future but I have seen nothing this season that leads me to believe he is going to one day "get it". And I certainly haven't seen anything in his limited coaching history that makes me feel that this guy is an NFL coach. The guy was a solid player and well liked, but there is no shade for him to stand in anymore as he is now front and center and being exposed.

What I know is from the team reporting even going back to brady nick naming him mini-bill. Mayo was primed to be a HC. As Curran mentioned the timeliness was accelerated. Mayo should have left and gotten experience elsewhere. However he chose to stay. I don't know why especially if Bill was still here he likely would still be co-defensive coordinator along with Steve. He's in this job to early and it's showing..

 

[Patsfan1645]

No doubt he got pushed into the role way too soon. I would have like to have seen him go somewhere and be named the DC and see what he could do. He is ant-Bill if you ask me, he stands on the sidelines and just watches the game unfold.

 

[Real fan 02]

No doubt he got pushed into the role way too soon. I would have like to have seen him go somewhere and be named the DC and see what he could do. He is ant-Bill if you ask me, he stands on the sidelines and just watches the game unfold.

Every coach has a way about them.. yeah I too thought that was odd to just stand there and not engage with the coached or the players..

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I was speaking mostly prior to 2023. I do recall that last year's class was heavily panned, especially after White, Boutte, and Mapu didn't really see any action. Mapu especially...there are a couple of guys here who absolutely hated that pick and from what I can tell, still do. Yet, here we are in 2024, and obviously, those guys are now contributing and definitely look like they belong in this league.

The fact is, Wallace wasn't supposed to play as early as he did, at least not at left tackle. He was supposed to be a developmental guy who they talked about potentially transitioning to the left side. But he clearly wasn't ready. And you're right, both he and Robinson were each getting pushed around early in the season because they needed time to get stronger and really shouldn't have had to have been out there. But Okorofor and initially Lowe, along with one other player (his name escapes me) all couldn't do anything early. It should have been Sow/Andrews/Onwenu on the inside, but then Onwenu got kicked outside and it's sort of been a mess until they finally seemed to settle things down prior to another shuffle on Sunday. Either way, Wallace played relatively well when he was in at right tackle before he went down, and Robinson being thrust into the lineup happened earlier than it probably should have. Both guys needed time to bulk up and clearly weren't ready, and Wallace is at least out because someone fell on his leg. It's not like it's a soft-tissue thing.

Polk is a mystery because he started out relatively well (5/6 in the first three games along with a touchdown) but has absolutely plummeted. He was a solid player in college and looked the part through the first few weeks. That one is bizarre.

The book is still out on Baker, who likely got a reality check after his early comments. Dial obviously had a rough preseason but has had some growth on special teams, and we'll see where he is in a year. And Bell might be more than he is by Week 17, as he was a solid player at FSU and might give them something att some point.

But like 2023, we're probably a year away from really knowing what they have in any of those guys. Polk will likely be the guy who sways the opinion because the hope was that we were past seeing them swing and miss on WRs. If he can turn it around, that would certainly be a positive. It just unfortunately doesn't look great for him at this point. The same needs to happen with Baker and maybe like Boutte, he also eventually turns into something. For now, we'll just have to let it all play out.

I agree, but that harkens back to your original statement that the front office is "solid". If the 2024 draft class does not emerge then the front office is "weak", and while waiting to see if the 2024 draft class is any good, the front office's performance is "pending". There are various options to chose from, "solid" is not one of them. "Solid" would be if the draft picks were playing and contributing, and at the moment, none of the draft picks are contributing anything meaningful except Maye.

 

[Huckleberry1]

There are many options. Personally, I have some interest in discussion, little in polls, although that might be interesting. For me, polls can wait until the bye week.

1) Only minor changes are needed. Wolf, Mayo, AVP, McAdoo and Covington should be given 3-4 year to develop a team around Maye,

2) KRAFT should make (or require) necessary changes after the season, probably including the replacement/promotion of Wolf.

3) Mayo should make any necessary coordinator and coaching changes.

4) Wolf should make any necessary changes, including coaching and coordinator changes.

5) I do not trust Kraft, Wolf or Mayo. We have little chance with any of them making the decisions. We won't have any success until this situation changes.
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MY PERSONAL CHOICE is
that Wolf should be in charge for 2-3 years and be given a chance to build a team around Maye and make any coaching/coordinator changes that he deems appropriate, understanding that he might not be given the power to fire Mayo (but would be allowed to make Mayo a figurehead).

If they fire Mayo Wolf should pick the next head coach, and that coach should pick his coaches.

If Mayo is staying he should make the changes.

If you are going to hold someone accountable for performance then you give them responsibility over the decisions. You can’t hold someone accountable for decisions they aren’t making.

 

[mgteich]

I agree, but that harkens back to your original statement that the front office is "solid". If the 2024 draft class does not emerge then the front office is "weak", and while waiting to see if the 2024 draft class is any good, the front office's performance is "pending". There are various options to chose from, "solid" is not one of them. "Solid" would be if the draft picks were playing and contributing, and at the moment, none of the draft picks are contributing anything meaningful except Maye.

Yes, at mid-season, the 2024 draft after Round 1 looks much, much worse than the 2023 draft at the midway point. Is that your point? There are lots of semantics in trying to use one word to characterize the 2024 Draft after Round 1 at the mid-point of this season. Is that your point?
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Or is your point that we should be able to evaluate how good the Front Office is based on our 2024 mid-season record and poster evaluations of steps made so far?
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WE HAVE VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS
I do NOT see anything that make me believe that the 2-4 year plan of the Fron Office is failing or that it is anything but just what we might have expected at this point. (and the coordinators are certainly being evaluated)

My personal view is to prefer to have a GM in charge, and for ownership to butt out for at least two years unless there is a total failure after two years. Even then, I would err on the side of giving the GM at additional year, after putting the GM on notice.
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BOTTOM LINE
Yes, I would have signed an additional one-year DL and LB for this year. Other than those lack of signings, the inability to prevent injuries, and the terrible choice of Okorafor, I like what Wolf has done.

The OFFENSE is right on schedule, except at OT. Maye is getting his experience. We have our 2 RB's and top TE for the playoff run. We are developing the threesome of Bourne, Boutte and Douglas. We will continue to evaluate Thornton, Polk and Baker. We have a very weak OL. However, according to plan, we are evaluating the youngsters: Wallace, Robinson, Brown and Jacobs. We have again tested the idea of Onwenu as our RT and found that he is NOT our future RT and is seriously needed as our RG. Hopefully, we will see Strange before the bye. We continue to find Sow and Jordan to be backups at best. IMO, we have a projected 2025 IOL of Strange, Andrews, and Onwenu.
IMO, that is NOT terrible. We have even found out that we likely have a continuing swing OT in Lowe (a major plus I think).

THE DEFENSE
is in trouble because of the lack of additions, and because of the injuries. However, we have made some long-term decisions, and still need to make decisions regarding Jon Jones and Wise. We have found that Marcus Jones is a solid starter at CB. We obviously need another (if Jon Jones isn't part of the future CB unit). We are evaluating our backup CB's, and IMO finding them all wanting. Mapu has turned out to be a very solid addition at SS/LB. Of course, we still need a free safety.

And yes, we will definitely need 3-4 serious upgrades in 2024 at every level of the Defense. We are somewhat misled by Wolf basically deciding to delay the signing of top additions until 2025. This will be a top Defense with the returnees and top additions.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The first question any franchise has to ask is: What is the structure of responsibility? Who is going to be accountable to whom?

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The current structure where Mayo and Wolf both report to RKK with Robyn Glazer a resident mole and Kraft claiming that he doesn't make football decisions is dysfunctional. Mayo's comments on why there were no trades at the deadline seems like another example of him not being on the same page as Wolf. Add the the AVP alignment with Wolf and the organization seems like something the Jets would put together. Kraft either needs to step up and take charge or find a general manager who owns choosing the coach and a coach who has the authority pick his assistants.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yes, at mid-season, the 2024 draft after Round 1 looks much, much worse than the 2023 draft at the midway point. Is that your point? There are lots of semantics in trying to use one word to characterize the 2024 Draft after Round 1 at the mid-point of this season. Is that your point?

My point was clear. Not sure how you missed it. @Ian said the front office was "solid" based on their 2024 performance in FA and the draft. I disagree. At this point I think the best outcome you can say is "pending". The 2024 FA and draft are a disaster, excluding Maye. I am surprised anyone thinks differently. Is that clear for you? Not sure why you find it confusing.

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Or is your point that we should be able to evaluate how good the Front Office is based on our 2024 mid-season record and poster evaluations of steps made so far?

See above. You are greatly overcomplicating a simple statement.

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WE HAVE VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS
I do NOT see anything that make me believe that the 2-4 year plan of the Fron Office is failing or that it is anything but just what we might have expected at this point. (and the coordinators are certainly being evaluated)

I never spoke about a 2 - 4 year plan, so we can not have different views since you do not know my view. Odd comment.

My personal view is to prefer to have a GM in charge, and for ownership to butt out for at least two years unless there is a total failure after two years. Even then, I would err on the side of giving the GM at additional year, after putting the GM on notice.

I disagree with this. This is the Jets approach. It is obvious whether a management team is competent or not after 1 year. Signing Okorafor in FA to play LT or requesting to play into the wind are examples of gross errors that competent managers do not make. Everyone makes errors, the difference between good and bad managers is the magnitude of the errors. Not all errors are equal. We have managers that make egregious errors.

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BOTTOM LINE
Yes, I would have signed an additional one-year DL and LB for this year. Other than those lack of signings, the inability to prevent injuries, and the terrible choice of Okorafor, I like what Wolf has done.

Why do you write BOTTOM LINE is every one of your posts? Why don't you simple write the BOTTOM LINE comments at the beginning of your post and skip all of the UPPER LINE comments?

The OFFENSE is right on schedule, except at OT.

The WRs are "right on schedule"? If true, why did we draft Polk and Baker? Probably becuase our WRs are not "right on schedule". And it looks like the Polk and Baker draft picks did not help our "not on schedule" WRs. Why did we try to sign Ridley and Aiyuk? Because we are not "right on schedule". Nice try though - you almost slipped that by us. LOL

Maye is getting his experience.

Agreed

We have our 2 RB's and top TE for the playoff run.

Playoff run? Dude, you can't be serious. LOL, LOL, LOL

We are developing the threesome of Bourne, Boutte and Douglas.

Bourne sucks. Check his stats. Stop with the Bourne BS. Bourne is a leader - NO. Bourne has a great attitude - NO. The truth is Bourne sucks.

We will continue to evaluate Thornton, Polk and Baker. We have a very weak OL. However, according to plan, we are evaluating the youngsters: Wallace, Robinson, Brown and Jacobs.

According to plan? Jacobs and Brown, who were not on the team 8 weeks ago are now part of the master plan. Too funny. You can not make this stuff up.

We have again tested the idea of Onwenu as our RT and found that he is NOT our future RT and is seriously needed as our RG. Hopefully, we will see Strange before the bye. We continue to find Sow and Jordan to be backups at best. IMO, we have a projected 2025 IOL of Strange, Andrews, and Onwenu.
IMO, that is NOT terrible. We have even found out that we likely have a continuing swing OT in Lowe (a major plus I think).

You are satisfied with JAGs. A lot of us are not. Have fun with your OL JAGs - we will never win sh!t with them.

THE DEFENSE
is in trouble because of the lack of additions, and because of the injuries.

Yup Wolf sucks.

However, we have made some long-term decisions, and still need to make decisions regarding Jon Jones and Wise. We have found that Marcus Jones is a solid starter at CB. We obviously need another (if Jon Jones isn't part of the future CB unit). We are evaluating our backup CB's, and IMO finding them all wanting. Mapu has turned out to be a very solid addition at SS/LB. Of course, we still need a free safety.

We could have signed McKinney in FA and filled that hole, but Wolf sucks so we didn't.

And yes, we will definitely need 3-4 serious upgrades in 2024 at every level of the Defense. We are somewhat misled by Wolf basically deciding to delay the signing of top additions until 2025. This will be a top Defense with the returnees and top additions.

This was a Top Defense and now it is a Bottom Defense. With our present coaching the defense will continue to suck. We have to change coaching if we want the defense to be good.