What's Edelman worth?

[manxman2601]

As I said in my post below I am not ant Amendola, I am disappointed in his performance which I have expressed before. In this context however I am looking at team building and that comes down to it not being in the best interest of this team to pay Amendola and Edelman in 2014 when they both fit best at the WR-Z (slot) in our offense. Ultimately I favor Edelman and not because I like him better but because he has done it and proven capable, Amendola has not so we would be paying for something that comes with a question mark as well.

As far as my bias goes it is amusing that after I have mentioned numerous times that you have a bias for Amendola you're now in here suggesting that I have one against him.

Bias - prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

Everything I post is built on comparisons to other players on the Patriots, other teams and historical data, everything I say is supported with context in the form of data, you on the other support Amendola with nothing other than your personal beliefs to support your posts, you never offer data, context, something comparable or even tangible to justify your position, that my friend is a bias and that is bad for this board not people talking about factual and tangible information in order to assess a value of a player or an overpayment of another.

You want to make everything out to be my personal issue with Amendola and that is not the case but you make yourself believe that because that allows you to justify your position, excuses and overall beliefs and ignore the creditable information I offer to disapprove those beliefs, so you drill into your brain that I have something against Amendola so you can say - "he just hates Amendola that’s why he thinks that" if you did not drill home that false belief you'd have no choice but to actually look at what I write about him and you'd find that much if not all is valid and supported with tangible evidence.

All I ask is that you limit your Amendola stuff to one or two threads. You are entitled to your bias but you've posted the same thing about Amendola potentially being cuttable in three different threads in the last hour or so. As I said, just a request which you are free to ignore.

 

[Huckleberry1]

All I ask is that you limit your Amendola stuff to one or two threads. You are entitled to your bias but you've posted the same thing about Amendola potentially being cuttable in three different threads in the last hour or so. As I said, just a request which you are free to ignore.

He's right manx, it's all your fault, you are the one being unreasonable, he's just trying to make his point. It's not his fault that he has to make it 800,000 times.

 

[Brady6]

All I ask is that you limit your Amendola stuff to one or two threads. You are entitled to your bias but you've posted the same thing about Amendola potentially being cuttable in three different threads in the last hour or so. As I said, just a request which you are free to ignore.

No I posted it in 2 threads and I referenced what our boards cap expert said. It's not about cutting Amendola it's about investing in 2 players who fit best at the same position.

I think Edelman is better but I don't think the gap between him and Amendola is that big so if the team decides to move forward with him I won't lose any sleep. I cannot advocate for keeping both of them on this team at similar salaries moving forward. That's a poor and redundant use of our cap in my opinion.

 

[manxman2601]

No I posted it in 2 threads and I referenced what our boards cap expert said. It's not about cutting Amendola it's about investing in 2 players who fit best at the same position.

I think Edelman is better but I don't think the gap between him and Amendola is that big so if the team decides to move forward with him I won't lose any sleep. I cannot advocate for keeping both of them on this team at similar salaries moving forward. That's a poor and redundant use of our cap in my opinion.

Considering the importance of the position in our offense and the fact that our other wide receivers are so cheap, I think it's an excellent investment. I wish we had had a top quality Gronk or Wilfork replacement on the team last year, even if the cap hit was in the 3-5 mil range.

 

[mgteich]

We are talking about $1M of new money for Amendola, so it is inappropriate to think that the decision is between keeping Amendola and Edelman. If Edelman is re-signed, the question COULD be whether to keep Amendola or Boyce. If Edelman is re-signed, the question COULD be whether to keep Amendola or Moe. If Edelman is re-signed, the question COULD be whether to keep Amendola or Collie.

The question before the house is how is whether to re-sign Edelman for $4M or $5M AAV. The only relevance of Amendola is that he is on the roster, and would need to step up if Edelman is not here.

I just cannot envision a situation where our resources are best allocated to both Amendola and Edelman.

 

[mgteich]

So your question seems to be whether we keep Amendola for a cost of $1M for 1 year or Edelman for $4M (likely about $8M over the first 2 years including bonus, salary and guarantees).

I don't think that this is the choice Belichick needs to make. To put it another way, Belichick is unlikely to think that he is forced to not pay Amendola $1M just because he chooses to sign Edelman.

No I posted it in 2 threads and I referenced what our boards cap expert said. It's not about cutting Amendola it's about investing in 2 players who fit best at the same position.

I think Edelman is better but I don't think the gap between him and Amendola is that big so if the team decides to move forward with him I won't lose any sleep. I cannot advocate for keeping both of them on this team at similar salaries moving forward. That's a poor and redundant use of our cap in my opinion.

 

[Brady6]

Considering the importance of the position in our offense and the fact that our other wide receivers are so cheap, I think it's an excellent investment. I wish we had had a top quality Gronk or Wilfork replacement on the team last year, even if the cap hit was in the 3-5 mil range.

I agree in a perfect world but there are other factors.

1. I have to believe Edelman is going to be looking for a multi year deal in the neighborhood of $4-$6 million per in a starting role either here or elsewhere. Amendola signed here a year ago under what I would assume was the belief he would be a starter. I don't think either is going to be happy as a 3rd or 4th WR; of course we could force the issue on Amendola but is that in the best interest of the team.
2. Is Amendola and Edelman on the field at the same time even feasible for a full season? I could make myself believe it would be extremely effective and difficult to defend and I could also make myself believe that for the most part it eliminates one of two from anything other than being a decoy.
3. What do they think of Josh Boyce moving forward? Personally I'm somewhat obsessed with Boyce's talent and if he can make the second year leap he is the perfect WR-Y for this team - able to make plays in the short intermediate passing game as well as stretch the field as a deep threat. On paper he is a bigger stronger TY Hilton or Randall Cobb.
4. Will we move back to the 2-TE offense by drafting a top TE or signing one? If so how often will we even been in a 3-WR set.
5. How do we feel about Moe and Dunn? If either have a big offseason, camp and preseason it will be hard to keep 3 slot receivers on a 53 man roster and even harder to get them involved.

I think we have to move on from one of them, honesty at the end of the day it is at best a minimal gap between the two of them in terms of stats it's probably max a 10 catch, 150 yard variance over a full season so as I said the position will be played by a capable and productive player either way, they both carry the same injury risk and are basically the same age, Edelman does give us more as punt returner and has proven more in the offense but either one will serve the purpose for the most part.

If we retain both, draft a TE, and Dobson and one of Boyce/Thompkins make the leap we could be looking at one of the two being option #7 in terms of targets.

Gronkowski
Amendola/Edelman
Dobson
Vereen
Boyce/Thompkins
Rookie TE
Amendola/Edelman

Plus not to be negative but were talking about 2 historically fragile players so we could end up with $10-$12 million allocated to two slot receivers who end up on injured reserve.

 

[Brady6]

So your question seems to be whether we keep Amendola for a cost of $1M for 1 year or Edelman for $4M (likely about $8M over the first 2 years including bonus, salary and guarantees).



I don't think that this is the choice Belichick needs to make. To put it another way, Belichick is unlikely to think that he is forced to not pay Amendola $1M just because he chooses to sign Edelman.

I don't think Amendola gets cut but I do not view it as the impossible that many do. There is one scenario where it is a real possibility and that's if the Patriots do like they did with Lloyd and they go to Amendola and they say we need you to take a pay cut or we will release you, if he refuses as Lloyd did then Belichick will cut him just like he did Lloyd. I firmly believe that if Belichick does not view Amendola as a $5.7 million or a $4.5 million cap hit WR (however you choose to look at it) he will cut Amendola because as a leader I'm sure Belichick know that having a player on your team that is not earning his pay is not good for moral or the locker room, we have the GOAT at QB who has restructured his deal more times than I can remember for the good of this team, they will most likely be asking all time great Patriots like Wilfork, Mankins and Gostkowski to restructure for the good of this team this offseason among others so if they to to Amendola and ask which is a real possibility given his cap hit, his 2013 production and the teams interest in retaining Edelman and he refuses he is gone in my opinion.

I remember a football life when Belichick said I cannot get this team to play like I want it to or something along those lines, that was 2009 and this team was infested with overpaid or not team first veterans like Thomas, Taylor, Springs, Moss, Bodden, Warren, Burgess, Watson and Galloway who were either cut in the season or gone before the bye week in 2010, since then I see a Belichick favoring team first veterans or young rookies over those types of players.

What it comes down to is how Belichick views Amendola which could be as the player he signed last year still, a player who needs to restructure and is will to do so he is worth retaining or a player who needs to restructure and refused so therefore he is not the type of player they want due to his lack of team first mentality so he needs to be cut. We will find out soon enough which he is.

 

[mgteich]

EDITED DUE TO NEW INFORMATION

The $2M "guarantee" is reported to be an option instead. This changes everything.

The team can now genuinely choose between Amendola and Edelman if they wish, with acceptable cap consequences.

The difficult thing for the patriots is that THEY are on the clock. If Amendola is still on the roster on March 11 at 4 PM, the team owes Amendola $2M, making it unlikely that he will be cut later.

I don't think Amendola gets cut but I do not view it as the impossible that many do.

 

[Huckleberry1]

EDITED DUE TO NEW INFORMATION

The $2M "guarantee" is reported to be an option instead. This changes everything.

The team can now genuinely choose between Amendola and Edelman if they wish, with acceptable cap consequences.

The difficult thing for the patriots is that THEY are on the clock. If Amendola is still on the roster on March 11 at 4 PM, the team owes Amendola $2M, making it unlikely that he will be cut later.

If it is a wash then it does enter the realm of possibility and provides the Patriots with the leverage to ask for a restructure, under the prior circumstances as we understood them it was no possibility whatsoever.

I still have the same view of Amendola as i had prior to the season, he's a tough talented player with a really good upside but the question is whether or not he can play the way he plays and stay on the field full time, and he obviously has a lot to prove in that regard. I don't think Belichick is going to hold playing through serious injury as a negative but they do need cap relief because of the Hernandez situation and i can see him "asking" Amendola to restructure with incentives for playing time, and i would expect Amendola to oblige as he certainly doesn't have more market value or leverage than he had when he signed with them. And I would still put the likelihood of amendola starting for the Patriots next season at over 95%.

As for the knocks on him as soft, having bad hands, not being able to understand the playbook etc.....I think they are all complete garbage. Amendola was playing on one leg all season and it seriously affected his game and reduced him to decoy role. And imo at this time next year those who have been trashing him are going to look really really bad and he and the team are going to have the last laugh on this issue. I think the player we saw in the first week against Buffalo was the player he really is, and he will show that next season in no uncertain terms.


As for Edelman i want him back, and I think they can afford him and should get it done. I don't think there is any problem with both he and Amendola on the field at the same times as Belichick said they play different positions, and the redundancy on skill set is actually a benefit to them because either can play inside or out if called upon and that means Brady won't lack for either option if one goes down. The real choice imo is Edelman or Sanders and Edelman showed this season that he is the better option for them.


Getting better at receiver is a priority for the Patriots this offseason, and may in fact be their biggest priority, and like a doctor the oath should be to first do no harm, getting rid of either Edelman or Amendola would make them weaker, period, and they should find a way to keep both for the next few years and then add more talent to the mix.

 

[mgteich]

Amendola's salary is $3M.

How much do you think that he is worth on the open market in a one-year deal?

I presume that you are talking about a pay cut rather than a restructure. If you talking about a restructure, then there is much less of a problem. In a new contract, I think that $2M of Amendola's salary can be turned into a signing bonus and spread over four years.

If it is a wash then it does enter the realm of possibility and provides the Patriots with the leverage to ask for a restructure, under the prior circumstances as we understood them it was no possibility whatsoever.

I still have the same view of Amendola as i had prior to the season, he's a tough talented player with a really good upside but the question is whether or not he can play the way he plays and stay on the field full time, and he obviously has a lot to prove in that regard. I don't think Belichick is going to hold playing through serious injury as a negative but they do need cap relief because of the Hernandez situation and i can see him "asking" Amendola to restructure with incentives for playing time, and i would expect Amendola to oblige as he certainly doesn't have more market value or leverage than he had when he signed with them. And I would still put the likelihood of amendola starting for the Patriots next season at over 95%.

As for the knocks on him as soft, having bad hands, not being able to understand the playbook etc.....I think they are all complete garbage. Amendola was playing on one leg all season and it seriously affected his game and reduced him to decoy role. And imo at this time next year those who have been trashing him are going to look really really bad and he and the team are going to have the last laugh on this issue. I think the player we saw in the first week against Buffalo was the player he really is, and he will show that next season in no uncertain terms.


As for Edelman i want him back, and I think they can afford him and should get it done. I don't think there is any problem with both he and Amendola on the field at the same times as Belichick said they play different positions, and the redundancy on skill set is actually a benefit to them because either can play inside or out if called upon and that means Brady won't lack for either option if one goes down. The real choice imo is Edelman or Sanders and Edelman showed this season that he is the better option for them.


Getting better at receiver is a priority for the Patriots this offseason, and may in fact be their biggest priority, and like a doctor the oath should be to first do no harm, getting rid of either Edelman or Amendola would make them weaker, period, and they should find a way to keep both for the next few years and then add more talent to the mix.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Amendola's salary is $3M.

How much do you think that he is worth on the open market in a one-year deal?

I presume that you are talking about a pay cut rather than a restructure. If you talking about a restructure, then there is much less of a problem. In a new contract, I think that $2M of Amendola's salary can be turned into a signing bonus and spread over four years.

I think Amendola's market value took a big hit this season because he was injured again, and that was the concern with him before he signed the deal. As for pay cut or restructure they are essentially the same thing. He's not being asked to convert salary to guarantee money like a guy like Brady is, he is being told his current deal is not working for the team but they can allow him to still make it through performance.



In all honesty mgteich salary cap discussions give me an ice cream headache so i generally avoid them, so i won't argue about the numbers because in truth i don't care that much about them, however in principle I think the Patriots need some cap relief and Amendola apparently has clauses that give them an opportunity to find some so i would expect them to try to restructure with incentives.

 

[mgteich]

Truly, we are free to use words as we wish. But there are definitely two different kinds of new contracts being discussed.

RESTRUCTURE - A NEW CONTRACT FOR CAP ACCOUNTING PURPOSES ONLY
Players every year are asked to convert current salary to a signing bonus so that the salary can be spread for cap purposes. Players almost always do this without any fanfare. This can be done with almost any quality player.

RESTRUCTURE - A NEW CONTRACT TO REDUCE COMPENSATION OR MAKE IT LESS SURE
This is a pay cut, pure and simple. Players are often asked for this. For example, Wilfork and Amendola are examples of players who could be asked for this kind of cap relief this year.

TO MAKE IT EASIER
I call the first situation a restructure and the second a pay cut. The situations are serious different. In the first case, the player receives the same as before, only faster. In the second case, the player receives less compensation.

I think Amendola's market value took a big hit this season because he was injured again, and that was the concern with him before he signed the deal. As for pay cut or restructure they are essentially the same thing. He's not being asked to convert salary to guarantee money like a guy like Brady is, he is being told his current deal is not working for the team but they can allow him to still make it through performance.



In all honesty mgteich salary cap discussions give me an ice cream headache so i generally avoid them, so i won't argue about the numbers because in truth i don't care that much about them, however in principle I think the Patriots need some cap relief and Amendola apparently has clauses that give them an opportunity to find some so i would expect them to try to restructure with incentives.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Truly, we are free to use words as we wish. But there are definitely two different kinds of new contracts being discussed.

RESTRUCTURE - A NEW CONTRACT FOR CAP ACCOUNTING PURPOSES ONLY
Players every year are asked to convert current salary to a signing bonus so that the salary can be spread for cap purposes. Players almost always do this without any fanfare. This can be done with almost any quality player.

RESTRUCTURE - A NEW CONTRACT TO REDUCE COMPENSATION OR MAKE IT LESS SURE
This is a pay cut, pure and simple. Players are often asked for this. For example, Wilfork and Amendola are examples of players who could be asked for this kind of cap relief this year.

TO MAKE IT EASIER
I call the first situation a restructure and the second a pay cut. The situations are serious different. In the first case, the player receives the same as before, only faster. In the second case, the player receives less compensation.

I'm well aware of the distinction and what i said was that they will reduce his deal and allow him to make it back through incentives, which would mean he could still make as much it just would not be guaranteed.

 

[mgteich]

I know that you are aware of the difference. I clarified it for others who may be confused with the word being used to mean two entirely different things.

Amendola already has game bonuses in his contract. I think that we are NOT discussing cap relief. We are discussing a pay cut. We are talking about the difference between $3M plus incentives for 2014 season and perhaps $1M plus incentives.

IMHO, Amendola would simply reject being treated like Lloyd, as if he has no chance to sign anywhere.
===========
Let's be clear (Miguel has even more options)

OPTION 1 - $1.5M of 2014 cap relief
Spread $2M of Amendola's contract over four years.

OPTION 2 - $1.5M of 2014 cap relief
Cut Amendola's salary to $1.5M, and add incentives.

OPTION 3 - $2M of cap relief
Cut Amendola's salary to $1M and add incentives.

OPTION 4 - $2.88M of cap relief
Cut Amendola before March 11 at 4 PM (cap relief would come on June 2)

I believe that Amendola would reject Option 2 or Option 3. Of course that is just my guess. Players have accepted strange contract in the past.

I'm well aware of the distinction and what i said was that they will reduce his deal and allow him to make it back through incentives, which would mean he could still make as much it just would not be guaranteed.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I know that you are aware of the difference. I clarified it for others who may be confused with the word being used to mean two entirely different things.

Amendola already has game bonuses in his contract. I think that we are NOT discussing cap relief. We are discussing a pay cut. We are talking about the difference between $3M plus incentives for 2014 season and perhaps $1M plus incentives.

IMHO, Amendola would simply reject being treated like Lloyd, as if he has no chance to sign anywhere.
===========
Let's be clear (Miguel has even more options)

OPTION 1 - $1.5M of 2014 cap relief
Spread $2M of Amendola's contract over four years.

OPTION 2 - $1.5M of 2014 cap relief
Cut Amendola's salary to $1.5M, and add incentives.

OPTION 3 - $2M of cap relief
Cut Amendola's salary to $1M and add incentives.

OPTION 4 - $2.88M of cap relief
Cut Amendola before March 11 at 4 PM (cap relief would come on June 2)

I believe that Amendola would reject Option 2 or Option 3. Of course that is just my guess. Players have accepted strange contract in the past.

Fair enough, i haven't done the math but trust your take on it. I think Amendola wants to stay here and prove himself, and his market value is clearly damaged, however i think there are plenty of GM's who have a pretty high opinion of him and would gamble on him at a seriosuly reduced price, i know i would push for the Patriots to do so if hew he had gone to another team and had this happen. I think the patriots can be creative and get some relief and keep him around by using an incentive laden contract. We'll see what happens?

 

[JoeSixPat]

I haven't read all the pages of this. While I tend to agree that Edelman's value is $3.5 - $5 million a season, and that he's worth more to the Patriots than other teams, I worry that an AFC East rival will put in a lucrative offer if only to drive up his price.

If that price goes up so be it - Brady needs a reliable receiver and his paycheck covers 2 positions including returner - so that alone may make it worth it.

He needs to be re-signed - and I worry about a division rival working to undermine that.

 

[Jackson 2]

I haven't read all the pages of this. While I tend to agree that Edelman's value is $3.5 - $5 million a season, and that he's worth more to the Patriots than other teams, I worry that an AFC East rival will put in a lucrative offer if only to drive up his price.

If that price goes up so be it - Brady needs a reliable receiver and his paycheck covers 2 positions including returner - so that alone may make it worth it.

He needs to be re-signed - and I worry about a division rival working to undermine that.

Tom Curran made an interesting point yesterday on WEEI's Sunday morning NFL show. Re: the Edelman question, he said BB earlier last week on the radio went out of his way to say that Edelman is more than just a slot receiver, which Curran seemed to think might be an indication he intends to sign Edelman likely at a higher amount than a slot guy might command. We'll see.

 

[PatsFan2]

Edelman has earned the $$$ DA is currently getting nuff said!