Wes Welker says he has nine and a half million reasons to play

[Deus Irae]

True but, our second TE D. Thomas was a Pat. I think everyone knows he is equal if not better than Hernz. Not better than gronk. But we don't need him in, we have other options. Hernz is no gronk or graham, I think. I might be wrong.

This is insanity. Thomas isn't good enough to shine Hernandez' shoes.

 

[Peachhead]

Patriots, stop goofing around and pay the man! He's probably the second greatest WR in Pats history behind Troy Brown. Actually Wes is arguably the best WR in Pats history.

Unlike many other player around the league, he didn't gripe at all when you franchised him. He worked his tail off and came back early from an ACL injury a few years ago. He's consistently outplayed his below market contracts (several times) without griping about it, and he's gold in the locker room and off the field. Everything you dream of from a Patriot. If you aren't going to treat someone like this well what message do you think it sends to the other players? To potential free agents in the future?

There's no need for the front office to play these petty little games. Welker deserves respect. He's earned it.

 

[mgteich]

The patriots ARE paying Welker $9.5M for his service in 2012. The patriots are paying the man. Barring injury, Welker will also have a fine payday in 2013, from the patriots ($12M) or from someone else.

Patriots, stop goofing around and pay the man! He's probably the second greatest WR in Pats history behind Troy Brown. Actually Wes is arguably the best WR in Pats history.

Unlike many other player around the league, he didn't gripe at all when you franchised him. He worked his tail off and came back early from an ACL injury a few years ago. He's consistently outplayed his below market contracts (several times) without griping about it, and he's gold in the locker room and off the field. Everything you dream of from a Patriot. If you aren't going to treat someone like this well what message do you think it sends to the other players? To potential free agents in the future?

There's no need for the front office to play these petty little games. Welker deserves respect. He's earned it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The patriots ARE paying Welker $9.5M for his service in 2012. The patriots are paying the man. Barring injury, Welker will also have a fine payday in 2013, from the patriots ($12M) or from someone else.

Barring injury every player with substantial guaranteed money left in his deal will have a fine payday in 2013. Those who don't are screwed because beyond that we all know that NFL contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on unless you're the team holding exclusive rights to that player IF you decide to pay him...which of course you don't have to.

Barring injury... Welker and Brady both know all about that.

Long term contracts are all about shared risk calculated based on potential remaining career value. In other words, it's all about the guaranteed money in exchange for the option of controlling your career rights. These guys don't generally get injured mowing their lawns or snowboarding, they get injured and lose their ability to continue to earn their career value by playing football for an owners team. You don't just get to say to talented let alone productive players I will pay you as long as you perform and if you can't any longer because of what you already did performing for me too damn bad... Even rookies get something guaranteed before they ever set foot on a field, as they should. Now more than ever with the new injury minimum guarantees.

What the Patriots basically tried to tell Wes last season, at age 30 before he turned in his 5th consecutive highly productive season and in fact the best in his career not to mention ever for someone at his position, was your remaining career minimum value is $16M (guaranteed money) - which is debatable. Apparently since then they have somehow determined that his remaining career value isn't even that... Makes no sense because the $16M was initially offered for just that.

You can also ask a player to assume all the risk at a premium, which is what the Patriots have done with Wes by tagging him and Wes has agreed to by signing his tag. Just don't try to make it out to be an honor, as Jonathan loves to. Because behind the scenes he's grinning and calling it leverage.

 

[mayoclinic]

Suffice it to say that the numbers show, conclusively, that Brees has a favorite, that the favorite is Colston.

What numbers are those? At least in 2011 your argument doesn't hold water. Colston was targeted 107 times in 2011. That's 3rd behind Jimmy Graham (149) and Darren Sproles (111).

 

[Off The Grid]

True but, our second TE D. Thomas was a Pat.

I think everyone knows he is equal if not better than Hernz.

Man that Cajun herb must be AMAZING!!! :rocker:

 

[mayoclinic]

Man that Cajun herb must be AMAZING!!! :rocker:

Is that the same stuff that BB sent to AHern to get him to fall to #113 in the 2011 draft?

 

[TyronePoole]

pherein has a good track record up until this point on this site so I'm willing to cut him some slack but my goodness

 

[mayoclinic]

pherein has a good track record up until this point on this site so I'm willing to cut him some slack but my goodness

I think the "Cajun Herb" theory is as good as any.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

What numbers are those? At least in 2011 your argument doesn't hold water. Colston was targeted 107 times in 2011. That's 3rd behind Jimmy Graham (149) and Darren Sproles (111).

Oh, I don't know it might hold water if you factor this in:

New Orleans Saints wide receiver Marques Colston lands hard on his collarbone, breaking it, while making a 23-yard reception that brought the ball to the Packers' 18-yard line with 37 seconds left in the team's season-opening loss to the Green Bay Packers...

.

He battled back after surgery for a broken collar bone in week 1, but when you miss two games and 4 starts and the emerging TE doesn't... Think he might have had another 30 or so catches otherwise - some of which the TE was targeted for in his absence.

 

[mayoclinic]

Oh, I don't know it might hold water if you factor this in. He battled back after surgery for a broken collar bone in week 1, but when you miss two games and 4 starts and the emerging TE doesn't... Think he might have had another 30 or so catches otherwise - some of which the TE was targeted for in his absence.

Colston had 80 catches in 2011 despite missing some time, the 3rd highest of his career and not far of his second highest total of 84 in 2010. I think saying he would have 110 receptions when he never caught more than 98 catches in a season is a bit of a stretch. But clearly missing some time may have affected his numbers.

Colston was targeted 133 times in 2010, a career high. He was targeted In his 6 year career he has been targered 115, 144, 89, 106, 133 and 107 times. Aside from the 2008 season when he was injured and played in only 11 games, his 2 lowest target totals were in 2009 and 2011, the two best offensive years in the Saints' history. In contrast, Welker has been targeted 145, 150, 162, 122 and 172 times, with the low number coming in the year in which he came back from an ACL injury.

Colston is obviously an important weapon in Drew Brees' arsenal. But at least right now I think it is a stretch to say that he is clearly Brees' preferred receiver over Sproles and Graham.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Colston is obviously an important weapon in Drew Brees' arsenal. But at least right now I think it is a stretch to say that he is clearly Brees' preferred receiver over Sproles and Graham.

But it's not a stretch, and the numbers bear it out. You're pointing to one year, and a year where Colston missed multiple games with injury. The discussion with Pherein was about more than that. In the timeframe that was being discussed, Colston has led the Saints in catches each year he's played a full season. Now, one could argue that the Saints are evolving to an offense where Colston will no longer be target #1, and time will likely bear that out as Colston ages and others come into their primes, but that was not the point of the discussion with Pherein. Pherein was claiming that Brees has had no favorite during the time frame discussed. The numbers show that to be incorrect.

 

[Ring 6]

Hernz is good , "Ive been watching him, but no Im not kidding,lol. Difference is you need Hernz as a WR , and we really don't need Thomas so the numbers get messed up. But Thomas performed exactly like he should, or like a hertz, when needed. Sometimes better than shockey, and thats saying something.
Id put David Thomas against Aaron Hernandez any day. I think they are pretty equal.

You are out of your mind. Its like saying you would put Mark Sanchez up against Eli Manning.

 

[Joker]

Its like saying you would put Mark Sanchez up against Eli Manning.

why is that so strange?...Wrecks Ryan says that any time anyone wants to know...even when they don't want to know

 

[pherein]

This past season, Hernandez had the 41st most yards from scrimmage in a season by a tight end in NFL history despite missing two games. He's not Gronk or Graham, but oh gosh I hope you're kidding about David Thomas

Herno put up 100+ more yards receiving in 2011 than Dave Thomas has amassed in his CAREER with N.O.

AHern was the 31st ranked receiver in the NFL last season...Dave Thomas 393rd...he was injured however...but in 2010 he had 30 receptiions in 13 games and 2009 he had 35 in 15 games...not even in AHern's area code...

I think you're way off on this one, my friend. Regardless of combine numbers, Thomas and Hernandez are entirely different players, and they are not equal in an sense of the word.

Thomas is exactly what you say he is - a very good #2 TE. The Pats drafted him and he didn't develop as we expected but he's turned out very nicely for you.

Hernandez is not a #2 anything. He is one of the most dangerous mismatches in the league. He's closer to Gronk in that regard than to Thomas, though his style is completely different. Jermichael Finley is the "TE" who comes closest to Hernandez, but Finley doesn't have Hernandez' movement skills or ability to line up in the backfield. Hernandez is just a unique weapon, and I think he would be a huge asset to any offense.

Hernandez is one of our 3 best offensive weapons, along with Welker and Gronk. If he were on the Saints, he would be one of your 3 best offensive weapons, along with Sproles and Graham. He's better than Pierre Thomas. He's better than Marques Colston. And I love both of those guys.

ok, I capitulate. I found myself this morning wondering why I was looking up Thomas's stats to post them. I usually know good players. I knew Hernz. Just remembering that Thomas fit in perfectly when Graham or Shockey were injured made me think he was pretty good. That made me understand I was posting a point I really didn't believe in. Otherwise I would never have looked up stuff just to prove my point of view. Thomas is a great 2nd TE, but comparing him to a proven starter is a mistake.
Hernz is better.

pherein has a good track record up until this point on this site so I'm willing to cut him some slack but my goodness

Actually I mistakenly blasted MoLewisrocks a few weeks ago, off base in a bar with my iPad,,lol. We need the slack thou, thanks. Its been a tough many months for us. Most of our fans are not in their right minds sometimes. No draft to look forward to, no coach, and no where to read about football that doesn't have the word "gate" in it, lol.
We're a mess right now.
Not that I don't strive to always think things out or have valid points. Im just noticing my misfires are I lot more common than usual. That can't be a good thing.

 

[pherein]

I looked at this and was going to make a reply, but you're trying to play shady games by including your RB as a WR, and I'm not going to play that game.

Suffice it to say that the numbers show, conclusively, that Brees has a favorite, that the favorite is Colston, and that Moore has never been close to the target that Welker is.

As for where the depth is, I listed it. Lloyd/Welker/Branch/Gaffney - 3 900+ yards receivers and a 700+ yards receiver. Even your favorite team, New Orleans, doesn't match that.

But our RB's are basically WR. I think that was decided on this forum when the question of Brees padding his stats was brought up, and its true. SP won't keep a RB if they can't catch and pass block. Its why Bell was let go, limited skill set.
I would say , yes, Colston seems the favorite regardless, but look at it this way.
Colston is the most talented WR on our roster. SP schemes are getting him open, by passing to anyone.
That ensures Colston has lighter than usual coverage. Being semi-elite that means Coston is open a lot more than the others.
Brees's job is to find the open weapon, and deliver. So if he sees one on one on Colston, he needs to pass to him, because not many can cover him, one on one.
That kind of covers both our points. It makes Colston a favorite, yes, but only because his skill set is above the others, so he is open. If others were as open Colstons numbers would be less.

and if you watch the footage you start to see way to many 1 on 1 catches, and separation from the DP, that is afford to him, by Brees spreading the ball around, and the scheme.
2010 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

2011 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

 

[MoLewisrocks]

But our RB's are basically WR. I think that was decided on this forum when the question of Brees padding his stats was brought up, and its true. SP won't keep a RB if they can't catch and pass block. Its why Bell was let go, limited skill set.
I would say , yes, Colston seems the favorite regardless, but look at it this way.
Colston is the most talented WR on our roster. SP schemes are getting him open, by passing to anyone.
That ensures Colston has lighter than usual coverage. Being semi-elite that means Coston is open a lot more than the others.
Brees's job is to find the open weapon, and deliver. So if he sees one on one on Colston, he needs to pass to him, because not many can cover him, one on one.
That kind of covers both our points. It makes Colston a favorite, yes, but only because his skill set is above the others, so he is open. If others were as open Colstons numbers would be less.

and if you watch the footage you start to see way to many 1 on 1 catches, and separation from the DP, that is afford to him, by Brees spreading the ball around, and the scheme.
2010 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

2011 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

OK. But what you have to understand is we aren't the Saints and Bill isn't Sean and we haven't been trying to replicate you and just coming up short. We run a very different offense even as we are both pass first spread offenses in large part because we have the QB's to be better at that than most teams. Welker is targeted as frequently as he is because Brady trusts him. It's not about being buddies, it's about Wes earning that trust by being the most consistent receiver over a period of time amid a sea of roster change in a post snap read based timing offense.

We both strive to create pre snap mismatches, as most offenses do, but Brady isn't throwing the ball to guys who he anticipates should be open based on those reads which is what Brees does. He's throwing the ball to guys who get open where they should be open (as opposed to merely appearing to be open on broadcast tape to individuals who don't know what the prescribed execution was supposed to entail) based on post snap coverage and/or guys who consistently find anticipated/prescribed spots and ways in which to beat even tight or double coverage and who consistently catch the ball when targeted. That as much as accuracy helps limit the turnovers. More often than not, Wes is one of those guys. Other times there are more viable options. Moss was one for a time. Then despite his freakish natural talent he became less consistently able to get open or beat double coverage or even catch the damn ball (or keep a defender from catcing it). So he was replaced with a guy who ran more intermediate routes better and fit the offense and had experience consistently catching the balls Brady throws or insuring no one else did and an upgraded TE component Bill had long been searching for. But until year 2 with that new TE component coming into it's own, Wes remained the best option because the kids had a learning curve and the savvy veteran had always struggled against double coverage, even in his prime.

By year 2 the TE's had emerged as a force but the effort to upgrade the savvy vet outside the numbers failed due to miscalculation about his potential replacement. Hopefully that has been rectified this season with the addition of Lloyd, a receiver well versed in the system, but because you never know until you know and rosters were expanded and we have plenty of cap space and opportunity knocked in the form of a couple of former veterans of this offense becoming available at no or low cost, Bill has amasses redundancy in the receiving corps heading into TC. He also drafted 2 young RB's just a season ago and while one couldn't get on the field as a rookie and the other couldn't quite stay on it playing at a championship level, unless they both turn out to be busts we should be in better shape to run the ball and catch the ball out of the backfield and stretch the field more horizontally as well as occasionally vertically - which is our game. We replaced one veteran presence in the unit with another, Woodhead who was dinged last season will hopefully rebound this year, and we've added FB to the roster along with depth at TE so we don't have to multitask young OLinemen as FB's and 3rd TE's now that Light has moved on.

But we will remain primarily a horizontal spread offense with hopefully just an improved capacity to potentially threatening to stretch vertically. Which is why there will be plenty of opportunity for everyone to make plays. But it remains to be seen who will and how many. That Gronk and Hernandez and Welker will is basically a given barring injury, although DC's adjust and adapt and youngsters have to respond to that and prove they can counter it. Lloyd should be a playmaker too, but it remains to be seen how he meshes with a perfectionist QB in an offense he is familiar with. His role in it won't be the same as it was in Denver or St. Louis, either. Just a marginal improvement in the performance of the RB unit, on the ground or in the air, however should vault this team to another level. We aren't reinventing the wheel on offense, just fine tuning it.

The defense on the other hand is being reinvented/reconfigured on the fly even as it has been getting retooled and transitioned from what we had the luxury of fielding for the first several years of the BB era. That is why it received the lions share of the focus in the draft as well as limited but strategic focus in veteran FA.

You guys are in a bit of a squeeze that extends beyond league matters. You're pretty tight against the cap even with restructures that will potentially haunt you for some time and you've lost some weapons and you haven't even figured out how to deal with the QB situation long term yet. So the idea that we should be attempting to replicate some blueprint your franchise has set out is kind of silly. We can still admire certain things about each other and even find isolated fault with each others approach to different situations without basically losing all perspective in the process.

We all get you're upset at the way things have transpired in NO in the last few months. But you're belief you have to come here in order to alter world perception is even more misguided than that of those who still rail against sypgate, which honestly pales in comparison when rationally assessed in hindsight where the crime and punishment are concerned. I empathize with you as a fan, neither of us did anything to deserve to be collaterally damaged in the process. But like Bill says about things beyond his control, it is what it is so you deal with it and move on. There is nothing to be gained by fighting battles you simply never will win. So you're best served moving on to the ones you can. NO still has issues to grapple with that frankly the Saints predicament pales in comparison with. Folks there should focus half as much energy on those as you do tilting at windmills in an attempt to vindicate a multi-million dollar football franchise that royally screwed up.

 

[Deus Irae]

But our RB's are basically WR. I think that was decided on this forum when the question of Brees padding his stats was brought up, and its true. SP won't keep a RB if they can't catch and pass block. Its why Bell was let go, limited skill set.
I would say , yes, Colston seems the favorite regardless, but look at it this way.
Colston is the most talented WR on our roster. SP schemes are getting him open, by passing to anyone.
That ensures Colston has lighter than usual coverage. Being semi-elite that means Coston is open a lot more than the others.
Brees's job is to find the open weapon, and deliver. So if he sees one on one on Colston, he needs to pass to him, because not many can cover him, one on one.
That kind of covers both our points. It makes Colston a favorite, yes, but only because his skill set is above the others, so he is open. If others were as open Colstons numbers would be less.

and if you watch the footage you start to see way to many 1 on 1 catches, and separation from the DP, that is afford to him, by Brees spreading the ball around, and the scheme.
2010 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

2011 New Orleans Saints Yearbook: Marques Colston - YouTube

1.) When Faulk was Faulk, he was catching anywhere from 26-58 passes a season.

2.) Woodhead got dinged up early last season and was never the same afterwards, but he had 34 catches in 2010.

As has often been said of Brady, his favorite receiver is the open one (although he started to get away from that in 2009-2010). New Orleans isn't inventing the wheel here.

As for the Colston issue, I was just noting that Brees has a favorite, as you were claiming otherwise as part of your "We're changing football" argument that was ignoring the real issue, which is that the Saints, Packers and Patriots (along with teams that are trying it with lesser QBs) are taking advantage of the league's passing rules and flooding the field with quality pass receivers. There's nothing wrong with having a favorite receiver, as long as it doesn't become an overused security blanket the way Coates did for Bledsoe.