Patriots Pregame Thread We're on to Miami... again.

[PP2]

Dorsett certainly isn't the only guy I've seen Brady angrily re-position in the past few games.

Do you remember at what point in which game, he realigned Dorsett? Was it on an audible or alert?

 

[Mack Herron]

Anyone? Buehler? Rutgers calling.

 

[Pats1989]

Anyone? Buehler? Rutgers calling.

Should take a look.

 

[supafly]

Not really his fault when he is standing there wide open without a defender within 10 yards and could walk to the end zone and Brady throws it to someone else.

True, but one example doesn’t do much to dispel the notion that they still aren’t on the same page. He’s currently on pace for what, about 10 catches or so for the entire year? It doesn’t appear as though he’s developed the trust of Brady, although we’ll have a better idea if Mitchell actually returns and Dorsett is forced to be inactive.

Since a decision on the 5th yr option will be due right after the draft, he’ll really have to show something in the spring to have that picked up. The plus side is that we’re running the ball better when he’s out there, so that’s big.

 

[drewskie]

Tom needs to look for Dorsett more often. He was wide open on several plays against the Bills last Sunday. Unless this is all part of the master plan to unleash him when it matters.

Film review: Patriots WR Phillip Dorsett is getting open and his opportunities will follow

 

[supafly]

If a receiver shouldn’t be expected to get on the same page by week 14, then their is something wrong with the system.

I think all of the receivers are expected to be on the same page at this point of the season, but that doesn’t change the fact that we’ve seen plenty of examples of WRs who haven’t panned out.

Normally, one would expect more than 7 receptions in week 14, particularly when Edelman, Mitchell, and Hogan have all missed significant time, and the player in question is a former first round selection. I think it’s fairly obvious (and was discussed on the TV broadcast, whether you choose to accept that as fact or not) that Dorsett is still not fully on the same page and that he’s continuing to try and learn the system.

 

[drewskie]

I think all of the receivers are expected to be on the same page at this point of the season, but that doesn’t change the fact that we’ve seen plenty of examples of WRs who haven’t panned out.

Normally, one would expect more than 7 receptions in week 14, particularly when Edelman, Mitchell, and Hogan have all missed significant time, and the player in question is a former first round selection. I think it’s fairly obvious (and was discussed on the TV broadcast, whether you choose to accept that as fact or not) that Dorsett is still not fully on the same page and that he’s continuing to try and learn the system.

Pre-snap alignments I would say there's merit there, but on several of these plays against BUF, Dorsett is clearly the best option as he was simply wide open running his routes. That's on Tom.

 

[supafly]

Not trying to give you a hard time- was just wondering if you remember that specific play. I don't.

At any rate, Brady forcing Dorsett to realign is not the same as Dorsett not running the route called for, on the play. We all know how anal Brady is about alignment, especially when it's on a changed play or an alert, based on what he senses is coming.

And again, I have yet to see Dorsett mess up a route. Perhaps someone else has.

I don’t think anyone should necessarily be suggesting that Dorsett is running poor routes, just that picking up the playbook, knowing the changes at the line, and developing the type of timing and trust that comes with lots of practice still has a way to go before they have that type of chemistry together.

This is exactly why I am hopeful that a full offseason addresses some of these issues and allows the team to take advantage of Dorsett’s talents, assuming that he’s able to put the work in, of course. I think we could see a much improved player next season.

 

[luuked]

Should take a look.

What for ? Given how much he drops he couldnt even work for the Kraft Group at Gillette as a waiter.

 

[luuked]

I don’t think anyone should necessarily be suggesting that Dorsett is running poor routes, just that picking up the playbook, knowing the changes at the line, and developing the type of timing and trust that comes with lots of practice still has a way to go before they have that type of chemistry together.

He has been visible as a blocker on many run plays in the last few games so the team feels comfortable enough with him to be on the field on run plays and pass plays. People here are just overthinking the entire situation where a player doesnt get the ball who is essentially the 7th or 8th option on the team and the last option on most plays in terms of pecking order.

Now it is entirely possible that in practice he is dropping balls or lazy coming out of routes but nothing that we have seen in game suggests that. What is much more likely is that it is purely a numbers game and he is simply too far down in terms of progressions to be a consistent option.

Now with a BYE coming up for playoffs maybe Josh & co will have time to design some plays explicitly to exploit the fact that he hasnt been used that much in the regular season. But given how much of a crunch each week is just to prepare a gameplan with your top weapons in mind I am not surprised that they cant just sit down and use up some valuable time to have designed plays for the #4 WR or #8 overall option.

 

[supafly]

He has been visible as a blocker on many run plays in the last few games so the team feels comfortable enough with him to be on the field on run plays and pass plays. People here are just overthinking the entire situation where a player doesnt get the ball who is essentially the 7th or 8th option on the team and the last option on most plays in terms of pecking order.

Now it is entirely possible that in practice he is dropping balls or lazy coming out of routes but nothing that we have seen in game suggests that. What is much more likely is that it is purely a numbers game and he is simply too far down in terms of progressions to be a consistent option.

Now with a BYE coming up for playoffs maybe Josh & co will have time to design some plays explicitly to exploit the fact that he hasnt been used that much in the regular season. But given how much of a crunch each week is just to prepare a gameplan with your top weapons in mind I am not surprised that they cant just sit down and use up some valuable time to have designed plays for the #4 WR or #8 overall option.

Fair point about him being far down on the list of receiving options, but I think that changed a bit once Hogan missed the past 4 games. I think most other replacements would have been getting targets with the WR2 down for a month.

Also, Jacob Hollister may have a shot at passing him for reception totals here by the end of the regular season as he’s only 4 behind at the moment, so that makes me think twice about the whole “he’s too far down on the depth chart” argument. I do agree that it’s a factor. I think we may disagree in how big of a factor it is, though.

For the record, I’m definitely not hating on Dorsett. I’ve pointed out the optimism when he sees a full offseason and how he’s helped to improve our run game. I’m simply skeptical as to how much in synch he is with Brady for 2017, as I think they’re still lacking some chemistry. To me, that’s to be expected, though.

 

[maineman209]

Do you remember at what point in which game, he realigned Dorsett? Was it on an audible or alert?

No clue. Brady "manually" realigns players so often (with varying levels of agitation), that I don't pay much attention to when or who (includes vets like Gronk and Dola).

Probably worth remembering that Dorsett had one catch on one target for 39 yards against Miami last time, and was wide (wiiiiide) open at least once against BUF, and Brady didn't see him, apparently. I think that was the play that instigated his sideline kerfluffle with McD.

If the OL can hold up, things could get interesting with Dorsett this game in 4WR sets with Hogan on the field providing a distraction for the Miami defense.

 

[turkeyneck]

Tom needs to look for Dorsett more often. He was wide open on several plays against the Bills last Sunday. Unless this is all part of the master plan to unleash him when it matters.

Film review: Patriots WR Phillip Dorsett is getting open and his opportunities will follow

Being open is one thing. Being open where and when he's supposed to be is another. Not saying he's not but there's more to route running than just finding your way at some point to a void in the defense.

 

[PP2]

Being open is one thing. Being open where and when he's supposed to be is another. Not saying he's not but there's more to route running than just finding your way at some point to a void in the defense.

I'm not so sure about that. Being open is open, no matter how you put it- and I imagine BB would be saying the same thing as he says about the score- in the end it only matters who scores the most points, not how.

Getting open following the where/when is a window that lasts a few seconds at the most, and once it closes, the play is broken, and you do anything you can to do to get open.

 

[turkeyneck]

I'm not so sure about that. Being open is open, no matter how you put it-

Can't agree with that. For example, suppose you're the first read on a play and you're not open when the QB has eyes on you. He moves on to his next read. If you come open after that, it matters not - unless the play breaks down completely and the QB is scrambling, look for any outlet.

Edit: We can't really know unless we're privy to what was supposed to happen on the play. That's all I'm saying. Without knowing what the play was supposed to do we can't judge if the receiver was 'open' in a play-designed sense.

 

[maineman209]

Being open is one thing. Being open where and when he's supposed to be is another. Not saying he's not but there's more to route running than just finding your way at some point to a void in the defense.

I think that depends somewhat on whether it's man or zone coverage. Routes against man may be a little more about the "when", while routes against zone may be a bit more about "where".

If a hole materializes in zone coverage where Brady doesn't expect it to, a guy can sometimes find himself wide open but "invisible" because Brady's looking elsewhere. Then, of course, the "problem" is that the hole Brady was expecting might be smaller than he expected, but he'll throw it into the tight window anyway - because he's usually successful - especially when the clock in his head is ticking down.

OTOH, on the somewhat rare occasion when he's got time enough to text Gisele from the pocket against a zone, he'll spot that unexpectedly open guy and put it on him, even if he wasn't the first, second or even third read (and I don't think that Brady very often gets past his second read without finding an "acceptable" - for him - target).

 

[Huckleberry1]

Kenny Britt is useless, I would rather see them go with someone off the PS or a free agent.

 

[maineman209]

Kenny Britt is useless, I would rather see them go with someone off the PS or a free agent.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, Reedy might be able to do today.

 

[Ring 6]

I think all of the receivers are expected to be on the same page at this point of the season, but that doesn’t change the fact that we’ve seen plenty of examples of WRs who haven’t panned out.

Normally, one would expect more than 7 receptions in week 14, particularly when Edelman, Mitchell, and Hogan have all missed significant time, and the player in question is a former first round selection. I think it’s fairly obvious (and was discussed on the TV broadcast, whether you choose to accept that as fact or not) that Dorsett is still not fully on the same page and that he’s continuing to try and learn the system.

I don’t think it’s obvious. I think what is obvious is that bill belichick wouldn’t put a player on the field who can’t do his job.
Dorsetts role is being low on the progression list because we hsbef so many other targets, and runs a ton of deep routes to draw coverage.
7 catches isn’t crazy given his role. He has played 281 snaps. That’s a catch every 40.
Last year Chris Hogan, who no one would call a guy who didn’t know the offense caught 38 last year in 829 snaps which is about 1 per 22.
The fact that Dorsett started the year as #5, isn’t as good as hogan, runs routes that are harder to get open, and is clearly used as a decoy seems to explain the difference of about 5 catches he is missing from Hogan’s pace.
At least to me that’s a better explanation than he doesn’t know what to do on the field and hasn’t learned the plays after 3 months yet B.B. doesnt care and puts him out on the field.

I’m not trying to come over the top on you I just get frustrated that people propagate this myth that anyone who isn’t doing great is stupid doesn’t know what to do and the patriots throw them out there anyway. It’s 100% contrary to what this team is about.

 

[long distance]

Both Waddle and Fleming have played well. I'm not concerned about the OL. Don't ask me about edge defenders.

Film tells a little different story. Fleming did well enough but certainly not as solid as his stat clean sheet would let you believe and can be a different story this week vs explosive and angry MIA rush. Waddle saw help from others as well which is not what Pats usually want to do but Id prefer if he is able to go also because he already played them once. Its a whole different game when Cannon is in though.

Edge defenders had very solid game vs BUF without T.Flowers, Reilly and basically KVN. Flowers and Reilly are likely back so this should make up for a healthy edge, DL rotation. The return of healthy and fresh Brown made a ton of difference as well allowing all different D looks and making the line more explosive.
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Here some BB scouting..