Welker was never coming to the patriots

[Ring 6]

Reportedly, the Titans were willing to pay $7.5 million per, which is without negotiations. If the agent made a misjudgment, it would be more likely that he misjudged how much his client would be willing to leave on the table to

A.) play for a legitimate contender other than NE

and/or

B.) get a chance to stick it to the Patriots

The only person I have ever heard with the immature desire to 'stick it to the Patriots' is you.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, because the opposite has historically been true, both with this team and with Amendola.

Amendola has been very productive. The Patriots are the most consistent front office in the NFL. You like to isolate decisions to whine about but the truth is they have a philosophy and they stick to it, and players want to play here.

I'm concerned that the Patriots organization is going to get even more of a reputation for being asses to deal with than it already has, and that such a reputation will come back to haunt them once Brady is gone.

All evidence says players want to play here. The Patriots have rarely ever lost a player they wanted to keep.

The "lipstick on a pig" approach that they've taken so far this offseason just makes it worse, because it's not really fooling many people beyond the most gullible of Patriots fans.

They are making decisions on players, and I'm sure they could really not care less what you think, so any lipstick is in your head.

We approach our fandom differently.

I think every poster on this board would be quick to agree with you there.

 

[Shockt327]

So the patriot FO can pat themselves on the back because their best receiver accepted about the same contract somewhere else?

The patriots didn't want to pay a couple of million more to secure Welker. He just wasn't worth it. Well, we'll see. We'll likely carry at least $2M in cap money into next year, so it won't be the cap that is the issue.

Except Welker wanted 3/$24 when NE made their offer. It took him until Day 2-3 of free agency before he/his agent were ready to realize that they weren't getting 3/$24; not in years or dollars.

After getting the offer from Denver, he then called NE and asked if they could match it. So, he willingly dropped his asking-price significantly...and it wasn't far off from NE's original offer. But it was too late. By that time NE already signed Amendola. But, If Welker's *starting point* were 2/$12; the Patriots would've played ball and negotiated. Bob Kraft said this. NE signed Amendola because Welker had all of the Tampering period, plus Day 1 to come around. It shouldn't have taken him that long.

Any way you want to slice it; Welker was further off with his original asking-price. NE really wasn't with their offer. If Welker realized this sooner, he's probably still be in NE.

 

[mgteich]

You say something enough and people might believe it.

Of course, the reasoning is self-fulfilling. Welker is playing for Denver, so the team didn't want Welker for this year.

All evidence says players want to play here. The Patriots have rarely ever lost a player they wanted to keep.

 

[Ring 6]

The final straw was a take or leave it offer for $10M/2 on Tuesday night.
==============================================
In 2011, the team and Welker negotiated. Kraft told Welker that a contract would be worked out with him before the start of the 2012 season.

In 2012, there was an offer, a franchise tag, and the expectation of further negotiations. Welker signed the tag. The patriots moved on, having secured what they wanted. They reportedly would have signed Welker for $16M guaranteed; Welker wanted $20M or $21M.

In 2013, all the hype was that there were considerable negotiations before free agency started and that Welker was almost a lock to stay. Obviously, that was utter nonsense. On the first day of free agency, Welker was offered 2/20 or the team would sign a player that night, player who has missed more than half his games over the past two years.
======
THEN THE REAL DECISION-MAKING
Welker "knew" that he likely could get $8M a year if he accepted playing for a poor team. With an offer of $7.5M in hand from TENN, Welker went to Denver. Elway and tweets from the players convinced him how wanted he was by everyone in Denver. He received $12M guaranteed and got to play for one of the two top AFC teams.
========
WELKER'S AGENT IS GOING TO REGRET THIS DECISION
Obviously, Robert Kraft is not used to someone sticking it to him. Sure, Kraft "wanted" Welker to come back, at the patriot price, with no negotiations and no back-talk. After 3 years, Welker finally understood and moved on.

You either need to drink more or drink less
Sometimes you come up with these depressed posts based on speculation, and thinking you know what happened behind the scenes.
Your characterization of Kraft, right or wrong, is simply made up.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's a reasonable point. If Welker really wanted the money he wouldn't be with Denver. It seems obvious what his intention became.

It seems obvious that he wanted to play for either a winner or a specific team. The reasoning behind that decision might be mundane, or it might be the stuff that soap operas are made of.

Welker was a nobody before he came to the Patriots.

This is not true.

Amendola has proven he can play the role of slot receiver. I have faith that Amendola will be an adequate replacement for the role Welker performed. I'm also giving Amendola the chance to write his own history with the Patriots rather than being judged against Wes Welker and Danny Amendola: Rams.

While I'd love it if Amendola could defy history and the odds, History is against you.

I'm not concerned. The Patriots assign their values and move on. There is a reason the Patriots have been able to remain competitive.

The Patriots also:

a.) get petty

b.) screw with players who should be above that

and the reason the Patriots have been able to remain competitive is that they've had Tom Brady under center.

Sure Tom Brady helps but the team has one of the best FO's going around.

The Patriots front office has been "iffy" for most of the past 8 seasons.

I'm sure we approach many things in life differently.

Doubtless

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

So the patriot FO can pat themselves on the back because their best receiver accepted about the same contract somewhere else?

The patriots didn't want to pay a couple of million more to secure Welker. He just wasn't worth it. Well, we'll see. We'll likely carry at least $2M in cap money into next year, so it won't be the cap that is the issue.

I see it as two different issues. 1) Did the Patriots low ball him? 2) Did the Patriots make a mistake not raising the offer to retain him?

#1 is arguably no (from reports). The Patriots did not low ball him when compared to the offer he signed. This runs counter to some who use the 'low ball' argument to castigate the Patriots FO.
#2 is ??? though arguably, to a solid degree, a mistake. Maybe the Patriots should have sweetened their offer? Maybe the Patriots will rue the day they didn't? If December rolls around and the Patriots are not as competitive as 2012, good chance there is our answer.
Either way I am a Patriot fan first while a fan of the WW memory/fan of off the field WW a very very distant second. I'd like to think BB and company have a plan to make the Patriots just as or more competitive without WW. Personally I don't understand looking at it any other way (what's the benefit as a fan?) but truly 'to each their own'.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Ill ask the WW fanboys again, if WW had the pats offer and Denvers offer in front of him and was told you have one hour, pick one, which one do you think he'd pick?

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

The Patriots also:

a.) get petty

b.) screw with players who should be above that

For someone who in multiple posts has made judgements of what is 'opinion' and 'speculation' as opposed to fact, above is a textbook example for you to reference. It is gross, GROSS speculation on your part to speak as fact about the FO motus operandi in such terms. However, feel free to give a transcript of Patriot FO discussions that can factually confirm they act 'petty'. :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

Ignore what exactly? Funny how you conveniently leave this out.

I didn't leave it out. It's been in paper after paper, it's been online, it's been in thread after thread, etc...

For someone placing the blame on NE; you really cannot deny that their offer to Welker was pretty spot-on. In many ways even better than what he settled for w/ Den. The Patriots really didn't low ball him.

No, it wasn't, as has been pointed out. And, yet, the Patriots really did low ball him. I love how people conveniently ignore the reality of what the Patriots did here.

1.) Lock him up long term, but never adjust the contract to reflect his significantly outplaying it, when they never hesistate to demand players take less if they feel the play isn't up to the standards of the contract

2.) Franchise him with no intention of entering into fair and honest negotiations. This cost him millions of dollars on the open market because the deals were there and the loss of a long term deal meant that he was going to have to head into a tighter players' marked the next season.

3.) Offer a lowball deal in the year after they franchised him, despite his production remaining essentially the same, because they were going to be "shopping at Walmart" even though Brady had restructured and the money was obviously there to give Welker a fair contract.

I'm sorry you can't seem to figure out where the "blame" lies. It's been obvious to pretty much everyone that doesn't have his/her head up the Patriots collective skirt. Why people here find it acceptable for the team to screw with its best and most loyal players, instead of rewarding them, is something for the shrinks of the world to deal with.

 

[Deus Irae]

For someone who in multiple posts has made judgements of what is 'opinion' and 'speculation' as opposed to fact, above is a textbook example for you to reference. It is gross, GROSS speculation on your part to speak as fact about the FO motus operandi in such terms. However, feel free to give a transcript of Patriot FO discussions that can factually confirm they act 'petty'. :bricks:

Nothing "gross, GROSS" about it. Interesting that you took a post that was part of an opinion sharing between Ausbacker and myself and tried to make that seem as if I was asserting opinion as fact, without noting that my response was to a post of his that was full of [highlight]his opinions[/highlight]

It seems obvious what his intention became.

Welker was a nobody before he came to the Patriots.

I have faith that Amendola will be an adequate replacement for the role Welker performed.

Sure Tom Brady helps but the team has one of the best FO's going around.

and was an opinion response in light of that.

 

[Bruins29]

Yeah but Deus you have to agree that while not popular it seems that the FO choosing to stick to their guns with regard to doing business (Milloy, Seymour, Welker, and perhaps even Samuel, Law, AV etc ) that it has produced consistently solid long term success.

It cant all just be Brady and the FO just screwing up one or two things around him causing monumental failure in crunch time?

I think I would rather have the unpopular move and success than the other way around not that they are mutually exclusive.

 

[ausbacker]

It seems obvious that he wanted to play for either a winner or a specific team. The reasoning behind that decision might be mundane, or it might be the stuff that soap operas are made of.

Welker is where he is. He could have stayed. The Patriots reportedly offered him a comparable contract to that of the Broncos.

This is not true.

Codswallop.

While I'd love it if Amendola could defy history and the odds, History is against you.

I'm neither being optimistic or downtrodden. Amendola deserves to be rated on what he does with the Patriots. I'm affording him that opportunity.

The Patriots also:

a.) get petty

b.) screw with players who should be above that

and the reason the Patriots have been able to remain competitive is that they've had Tom Brady under center.

In your opinion. I've seen nothing different from the Patriots this year than I have in any other offseason. You don't like some of the moves and neither do I. The reality is, it's all lip service. The ship keeps sailing and the Patriots continue to give themselves shots at the Superbowl.

The Patriots front office has been "iffy" for most of the past 8 seasons.

I'm sure there are money teams who would enjoy an iffy FO such as the Patriots.

Doubtless

 

[Shockt327]

I didn't leave it out. It's been in paper after paper, it's been online, it's been in thread after thread, etc...

LOL, leave *what* out? Once again you cannot point to anything specific...

*Also, all of your below points have nothing to do with, nor do they conflict with, anything I previously wrote. This is your attempt to shift the argument (in a hilarious direction) because you cannot refute anything. So, again, you are willing to try and argue with me; but you cannot be bothered to point out what was incorrect about what I wrote; How convenient.

No, it wasn't, as has been pointed out. And, yet, the Patriots really did low ball him. I love how people conveniently ignore the reality of what the Patriots did here.

Oh, they low balled him? Excpt 2/$10 is comparable to Welker's current contract; not nearly as much as 3/$24 anyway....If the Pat's were low-balling, then Welker was high-balling to an even worse degree; in both salary and years.

1.) Lock him up long term, but never adjust the contract to reflect his significantly outplaying it, when they never hesistate to demand players take less if they feel the play isn't up to the standards of the contract

Except Welker *repeatedly* stated that he had every intention of playing out his contract. Yet you blame NE for this? Not that it matters; We frequently see players outplay the value of their contracts in NFL. Yet, you hardly ever see a contract get willingly ripped up by a franchise just to dole out more money per/year...without a holdout, anyway. That's simply the NFL status-quo. Oh, but NE will cut players who don't produce, you say? Um so doesn't *every* team in the NFL. Again, That's the status-quo. I find it hysterical and obnoxious that you are attempting to make NE out to be the devil for conducting business the way every team does.

2.) Franchise him with no intention of entering into fair and honest negotiations. This cost him millions of dollars on the open market because the deals were there and the loss of a long term deal meant that he was going to have to head into a tighter players' marked the next season.

Are you new to the NFL? This is such obnoxious and tenuous logic. NE has every right to Franchise a player; even if they only wish to hold on for one more year. Once again you are attempting to make NE out to be the devil for conducting business the way every team does. This is your argument against NE? Oh, and you actually want NE to be blamed for potential money lost due to the market falling? LOL!

3.) Offer a lowball deal in the year after they franchised him, despite his production remaining essentially the same, because they were going to be "shopping at Walmart" even though Brady had restructured and the money was obviously there to give Welker a fair contract.

Except the 2/$10 contract wasn't far from the 2/$12 that he eventually got....nice job ignoring this. Not nearly as much as 3/$24. So, no, it wasn't low balling. It was almost spot-on.

I'm sorry you can't seem to figure out where the "blame" lies. It's been obvious to pretty much everyone that doesn't have his/her head up the Patriots collective skirt. Why people here find it acceptable for the team to screw with its best and most loyal players, instead of rewarding them, is something for the shrinks of the world to deal with.

Yes, let's place the blame on NE for conducting business in a manner that's in lock-step with what the rest of the NFL does; oh, and we'll totally ignore Welker over-estimating his asking-price and taking all of the tampering period + 1-2 days of FA to realize how wrong he was....and then signing a deal that wasn't far off from what NE originally offered him. Yeah. Great logic here.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah but Deus you have to agree that while not popular it seems that the FO choosing to stick to their guns with regard to doing business (Milloy, Seymour, Welker, and perhaps even Samuel, Law, AV etc ) that it has produced consistently solid long term success.

It cant all just be Brady and the FO just screwing up one or two things around him causing monumental failure in crunch time?

I think I would rather have the unpopular move and success than the other way around not that they are mutually exclusive.

The highlighted part is the key. The team doesn't need to behave like it sometimes does to its best and/or most loyal players, and it doesn't need to screw those players over by manipulating rules that they know are already unfairly one-sided. That it too often chooses to do so is something I find abhorrent. In the Welker case, just for an example, the money was there to give him a very respectable (example only!) 3 years, $24-$27 million deal with about $20 million guaranteed instead of tagging him (it also could have been made for more years in order to spread the hit, if needed, because the guarantee was the key). Had they done that, this would be year two of that deal, there'd be no sign of slippage, and the money would not be an issue.

And before people go down the logical alley (and one I railed about when the lockout/negotiations were happening), I understand that a huge part of the problem here is that the NFLPA was stupid enough to allow these practices to continue. But, as the saying goes: "just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should".

Also, just a note here:

Milloy was a player who was coming off of a poor year (the anecdote about him making no big plays comes to mind), while Welker is coming off of a 118 catch season. I don't find the two situations comparable.

 

[Brady6]

Nothing "gross, GROSS" about it. Interesting that you took a post that was part of an opinion sharing between Ausbacker and myself and tried to make that seem as if I was asserting opinion as fact, without noting that my response was to a post of his that was full of [highlight]his opinions[/highlight]



and was an opinion response in light of that.

DI honestly at this point you need to just think to yourself if the 49ers can let Jerry Rice move on to another franchise can we seriously be so shocked by the Patriots letting Wes Welker walk?

 

[Deus Irae]

Welker is where he is. He could have stayed. The Patriots reportedly offered him a comparable contract to that of the Broncos.

It's true that in any case where a player is offered a deal he could have stayed, so it's a meaningless point.

Codswallop.

Not at all. He was the leading receiver for the Dolphins, and the best receiver on their team.

I'm neither being optimistic or downtrodden. Amendola deserves to be rated on what he does with the Patriots. I'm affording him that opportunity.

To use your own term..... Codswallop

In your opinion. I've seen nothing different from the Patriots this year than I have in any other offseason. You don't like some of the moves and neither do I. The reality is, it's all lip service. The ship keeps sailing and the Patriots continue to give themselves shots at the Superbowl.

Ahh, yes... the homer's creed. I prefer not to sign on to blind following, thanks.

I'm sure there are money teams who would enjoy an iffy FO such as the Patriots.

Another meaningless point. By comparison, Raiders fans would enjoy the Bengals FO, and the Patriots got by for years because of the earlier successes covering up for the later screw ups.

 

[ausbacker]

It's true that in any case where a player is offered a deal he could have stayed, so it's a meaningless point.

Not at all. He was the leading receiver for the Dolphins, and the best receiver on their team.

To use your own term..... Codswallop

Ahh, yes... the homer's creed. I prefer not to sign on to blind following, thanks.

Another meaningless point. By comparison, Raiders fans would enjoy the Bengals FO, and the Patriots got by for years because of the earlier successes covering up for the later screw ups.

To sum up the majority of Deus Irae posts on Patsfans;

100% of the time my opinion is the right one.

Hardly surprising given you're putting forward opinion much the same as I have done. We're done in this thread.

 

[JackBauer]

It seems strange to me, given how terrible the team was to Welker and others, that there are still so many players out there like Vollmer and Wilson who jump at the prospect of being a New England Patriot.

 

[Deus Irae]

To sum up the majority of Deus Irae posts on Patsfans;



Hardly surprising given you're putting forward opinion much the same as I have done. We're done in this thread.

You cracked out the "Codswallop", and I'm the issue.

As you put it, hardly surprising.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Nothing "gross, GROSS" about it. Interesting that you took a post that was part of an opinion sharing between Ausbacker and myself and tried to make that seem as if I was asserting opinion as fact, without noting that my response was to a post of his that was full of [highlight]his opinions[/highlight]



and was an opinion response in light of that.

If opinion is implied and not a matter of syntax, apply that to your own responses. Semantics aside (a.k.a. 'whatever').
You bashed the Patriot FO to a severe and ugly degree in broad yet declarative terms. And I call your post pure and ugly bull! You are speaking out of emotions, being petty yourself, out of your dislike of the WW move (even if it was the wrong move by the FO). The patriots FO lead by BB operates:
A) Bases actions/decisions on what is best for the organization's success (right or wrong) OR
B) Sometimes petty. If they dislike someone they disregard the organization's best interests to lash out at someone via actions. Oh well for the organization, but we sure made person X sorry! Nice! Yep, that sure sounds like BB. Unable to keep his emotions in check. One to deviate from principle.



feel free to take your petty