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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Redman443, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. robertweathers

    robertweathers PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stairway2Seven still says the Chiefs offense sucks
     
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  2. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let’s make sure this thread keeps getting bumped for the offseason. Ravens face-plant is by far the best moment of the 2019 season.
     
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  3. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The deflategate curse is alive and well.
     
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  4. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    More victims of the Deflategate curse in 2019/20:

    Patrick Peterson
    Baltimore Ravens/John Harbaugh
    Andrew Luck/Indianapolis Colts (huge one)
    Robert Kraft
     
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  5. Flash

    Flash Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I'm glad the Ravens sh** the bed, but they are still going to be a force next season.
     
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  6. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ravens have Jackson going into year 3; Chiefs have Mahomes going into year 4. Both will probably get big extensions but Ravens and Chiefs will keep the number low for a year or two. May see a huge arms race between Ravens and Chiefs for the next few years. Both teams have affordable, dominant quarterbacks and have a ~2 year window before the QB hit explodes. This will be pretty interesting. Houston ate Fettuccini Alfredo to start the race, needlessly squandering their future, and are puking their guts out right now.

    The AFC is beginning to emerge. As the old guard, now basically just Brady and an uncomfortably fat/old Big Ben, begin their farewell, the new contenders are loading up. It’s been a long, long time since the AFC has shifted in power from Brady/ Manning/ little brother Ben. Hard to believe how few good QBs emerged from roughly 2001-2016 in the AFC to challenge those three. I mean, Flacco and Rivers are a sad 4/5 there, while the NFC had an overflow of stars. Now Mahomes, Watson, and maybe Jackson look like the potential perennial contenders.
     
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  7. goheels22002

    goheels22002 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Streak continues for the Ratbirds.

    I think we should co-opt the Dolphins 16-0 champagne toast and meet at a bar to toast every year the Ravens fail to win a playoff game since they started Deflategate.

    Seven years and counting.
     
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  8. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    @venecol
    @Joker
    @Tunescribe
    @Tony2046
    @PP2

    I really enjoyed this article from Mark Decourcy from The Sporting News about the whole option QB issues and Lamar Jackson. This isn’t an Xs and Os trigonometry lesson but more of just conventional wisdom that does a good job explaining why the Ravens offense (and other option-based systems) are typically shut down in the NFL and more often in the postseason. This is not a “Lamar hate” article but raises some concerns about the two postseason meltdowns and suggests these are not just coincidental flukes.

    What’s very interesting here is that what Vrabel did was very much what the average fans thought teams should do, which was to sell out against the run and take away the middle of the field. It really isn’t that complicated. The real question is why teams don’t just do it, which is why this article is great in its simplicity. Teams play 16 games; while they’re willing to make tweaks to their overall schemes during the regular season, they aren’t going to fundamentally change their defense to a massive extent for one opponent. In the postseason it is different. Teams will essentially change their DNA for survival. The option itself is not incredibly difficult to stop; forcing Jackson to pass like a regular QB is not incredibly difficult to do. It just takes the commitment to do so, and so Ravens opponents are going to be generally preparing for 15 other non-option offenses rather than that one outlier. In that sense, the option is somewhat of...as we often say...a gimmick. Gimmicks are typically appear a lot more sizzling than they actually are.

    HOPE YOU’LL CLICK ON THE LINK AND GIVE THE ARTICLE SOME CLICKS, AS IT NEEDS THOSE TO BE JUSTIFIED FOR PUBLICATION. FULL ARTICLE IS NOT THAT LONG AND A GOOD READ.

    Ravens' loss proves they need a new offensive approach with Lamar Jackson

    There is no question Jackson is an outstanding NFL quarterback. There still has never been, however, a Super Bowl champion that has built its attack on the option game. That is the vehicle that carried the Ravens as far as they went this year. There was beginning to be some belief the reason no one had won it all with the option is it had not been deployed by a team blessed with an operator owning Jackson’s surpassing talent.

    —-

    Decourcy dismisses the injury risk theory, which was brought up on this forum. Instead he points to 3 main points. #1 is the real gold here IMO.

    —-

    1. Opponent game-planning: The Titans understood their only concern at this point was to stop the Ravens attack. NFL teams can say they play one game at a time, and it’s true to an extent, but rare is the team that will completely abandon its principles to deal with a single opponent in the regular season.

    Perhaps an opponent within a division will consider it, because that game is going to be played twice in a year, but someone from the NFC West will recognize there are 15 other games on the schedule that are more or at least as important.

    The playoffs are different. The Titans were ready for everything Jackson can bring to a game. They worked hard to force his throws to the sideline, where he tended to be less accurate and the passes were more easily defended, and they also forced him whenever possible to run wide rather than upfield. They used a spy on the quarterback when necessary, which mostly kept Jackson from dashing into the secondary.

    Tennessee coach Mike Vrabel said the key was restricting Jackson’s activity “between the numbers” and forcing him to go searching for room on the outside. “The players understood the scheme, some of the keys to dealing with him,” Vrabel said. The biggest: making him move laterally and eventually search for refuge out of bounds.


    —-

    Point 2 hits on the intensity of playoff football and why going for it on fourth and short is not the same against frenzied defenders as it is in a regular season game. He runs through the whole list of 4th down running plays getting stuffed. Ravens were 8/8 on 4th and 1 in the regular season and I think 0/2 in the postseason.

    2. Desperation matters: There was a least one different ingredient. A team’s defense is fundamentally altered by the degree of intensity invested in it. The Titans recognized Baltimore was going to have some success moving the football and concentrated on ways to excel in short-yardage situations.

    —-

    3. Coming back: Because the Ravens are first a running team, there always was doubt about how they would handle facing a significant deficit. One reason that doubt lingered is they so rarely were behind by more than one score.

    They scored first-drive touchdowns in 11 of 16 games. They hadn’t overcome more than a single-score deficit at any point.

    So far behind for so long against the Titans, Jackson wound up throwing 59 passes, completing 31 for a .525 percentage. Throwing so much led to two interceptions and one sack that caused him to fumble. That represented half his turnover total for the season.


    —-

    There are six teams still playing, and though all the remaining quarterbacks function differently, they all are operating with the same fundamental approach. For lack of a better term, this has, for decades, been called a “pro-set” offense. It makes sense, when you think about it.

    All in all, a lot of this is stuff that fans have casually observed. The fallacy is in thinking that coaches are sitting in message boards all day focusing on Lamar Jackson when they are preparing the team for every attack, few of which include option style plays. And that during the couple of days of film breakdown/game planning, they are not typically going to blow up a defense’s identity for one game. Of course, as time goes on it may become more obvious on how to stop LJ while still maintaining your core principles on defense. That’s what typically happens to these guys.
     
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  9. PP2

    PP2 Pro Bowl Player

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    It's a good article. Here's what I had to say in the GDT about that:

     
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  10. Casanova Frankenstein

    Casanova Frankenstein Rookie

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    "And I would've went to the Superbowl if it wasn't for you damn Titans!"

    FB_IMG_1578880272729.jpg
     
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  11. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    Interesting stuff. But it has me wondering if the Ravens' sheer physicality mattered as much as their scheme in many cases -- they have a great OL plus Ingram plus speedy/strong/quick Jackson. They STILL gained more than 500 yards vs. the Titans so it wasn't that they suddenly couldn't move the ball because a defense figured them out. The outcome arguably boiled down to the turnovers and fourth-down stops. And, Ingram wasn't 100 percent.

    I also wonder if BB tried what Vrabel did but the Pats just succumbed physically without benefit of turnovers, etc. (can't recall specifically how the Pats defense attacked them). We know BB is unusually adept at big alterations for the sake of game planning vs. specific opponents. I think Jackson's physical gifts and the pressure that puts on the edge is a big part of this even if a defense knows what's coming.
     
  12. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I mentioned the other day that talent was ultimately responsible for their success. All year long people came up with laundry list of scheme to stop Balt but again the talent on the field was just too much most of the time. Of course there was a great marriage of scheme & talent that came together.

    I don't feel any different abt the game though. All year long Balt was healthy. Not last game, all banged up. All year long the ball bounced their way. Tipped INT right off the bat. Dropped passes. Defense looking completely flat.

    Jackson didn't play well at all but Id struggle to say anyone did.

    But your point abt being physical, Balt straight up bullied people all year as well as confusing the hell outta teams. You have to be ready for a fist fight all game playing them. Tennessee showed up ready and throwing the first punch. They weren't intimidated at all. Big credit to Vrabel. He looked great against us and Balt. Definitely pulling for him as I was Houston.

    I didn't read the article but looked at a few of main points Ice pasted and didn't come away with anything new. Not breaking news team get 100% more specific come January.
    Even down by a few scores Balt moved the ball just kept ****ing themselves every chance they could.
    As for the option not working I have to laugh and remember people saying QB's that could move would never work. College schemes would never work.

    Very soon all we're going to see is mobile QBs and more creativity from different levels. Its already here when you look around the league.
     
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  13. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A lot of the yardage came late in garbage time though. I think I read something like 40% of the total but could be wrong. I think key stat is 6.2 yards per attempt (passing) and that number was definitely boosted from the prevent defense in the second half. So I think the yardage totals are misleading to some degree, but for sure the turnovers made a huge difference...and turnovers are often luck as much as skill.

    I came out of the game with more respect for LJ than before. I thought the Ravens would face-plant collectively and they did. He needs to improve, but I saw the look of an extremely competitive guy who will win at all costs. He went 100% all throughout the game and seemed to be one of the few who was still giving it his all until the final whistle. The guy has the Brady attitude, a laid back demeanor but beneath that mask is a killer instinct.
     
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  14. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm looking around the NYFL right now and there are no running QBs in the final four and no "college schemes." Same as it has been for a century of pro football.
     
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  15. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    With respect I don't think you know what you're looking at.

    Every QB left in the playoffs can move to one extent or another. Wilson won a SB and went back to another as "running QB".

    There are no "running QBs" anyway. There are QBs that can move. They're all QB's. Some more than others but they can all move.

    As far as stealing from college it's literally all over the league. There's no point in looking at one team or play. It's everywhere. KC has been running stuff from Texas Tech since last year if you want a team that's in the playoffs.
     
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  16. StairwayToSe7en

    StairwayToSe7en On the Game Day Roster

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    The game was decided at halftime. Houston gave up at the half, so anything that happened after that was essentially garbage time. In the first half, all but one of KC's scores came from short fields. They only had one drive loner than 42 yards.

    The Titans will have no problem defending them, especially if Jayon Brown plays. KC will be lucky to put up half of the number of points they did against Houston.
     
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  17. 1960Pats

    1960Pats PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think this is where we differ. When I use the term "running QB" I'm not talking about QBs who can run. In the final four this year the QB's can all run. What I'm talking about are QBs who have plays designed for them to run. Yes, there has been an uptick in RPO plays in the NYFL, but with all plays that require a QB to run, the NYFL eventually catches up to them or the QBs get injured.

    As for my knowledge of college football, I dumped that game many years ago, just as I did MLB, and don't know or care about it.
     
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  18. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey it's your opinion so we floats your boat.
     

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