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Theory:Brady too reliant on Welker?

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The gap in the difference in the two offers is too narrow to lend credence to this theory (and it is a good one, by the way). The gap is so narrow that the only plausible answer is one of personal differences. I can only believe that Welker felt slighted.

Also if they were eager to avoid going Welker-centric, why go after a Welker-clone?

I've been thinking about this same thing, but from the Denver perspective. Stokely at 36 is all but done, and they could have likely replaced him with Welker or Amendola, they signed Wes.
 
Sorry dabruinz but wr are often products of the system Wes's stats are what they were Wes Welker NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

He will do very well in Denver but some places he just wouldn't have fit and would have never sniffed 112 catches due to system and qb combination. His stats look very amendolaish...before pats. I expect amendola to be around 90 or 100 catches very welkerish. Slightly less because Brady won't fall back on him quite as much as Wes.

Personally I like Wes and I think the 2mil is to small to throw out the chemistry Wes had with tb but I can also see the logic from a business pov vs a fans. We can agree to disagree.
 
Maybe they are planning on going all out on the D side of field? yet they haven't signed anyone so who knows
 
He will do very well in Denver but some places he just wouldn't have fit and would have never sniffed 112 catches due to system and qb combination. His stats look very amendolaish...before pats. I expect amendola to be around 90 or 100 catches very welkerish. Slightly less because Brady won't fall back on him quite as much as Wes.

I doubt it , wes in 9yrs has missed 5 games , amendola has missed 22 games in 4 yrs. I see a problem off the bat. My worry is i hope him,gronk and hernandaz are not hurt in the same time.

i think amendola is being setup for failure,i will expect him to product 60-70catches for 700-800yds and 12-14 games and call it a great year for him.
Wes also had a 100 catch with Matt Cassell if you forgot. He has 60 catches with cleo lemon !.I also think manning window is also closing. If you putting wes out there helps manning with a SB. why not.

Last year people forgot that most teams doubled the outside guys [like baltimore did inthe playoff] and frustrated manning. Imagine wes in the playoff for bronco`s. He has than a old stockley n the middle letting the ravens play there 2 ILB in coverage.
 
Mack - not sure where you've been hiding out, but I'm not the first person to mention about Brady forcing the ball to either Moss or Welker.
.

You are not and you are right. Welker seemed like he was Brady's permanent checkdown.
 
You are not and you are right. Welker seemed like he was Brady's permanent checkdown.

A little tough love for Brady this year ... i like it ... it's so Belichick.
 
Let me preface this with a few things. I loved having Wes here. He is still one of the best in and out of his breaks and, despite his drops, he's still got some of the best hands around. Not to mention that he's tough as hell. A true gamer. A true Patriot. I was one of the first to talk about the Pats getting him from Miami back in 2006 before he became an RFA.

I rate Brady as, arguably, the greatest modern day QB. Since he took over back in 2001, he's had a confidence about him that gave you faith in the entire team. I don't expect Brady to be perfect. But I do expect a certain level of consistency from him.

OK..

I saw something in the AFCCG that I didn't like. And that was Brady trying to force the ball to Welker who was tightly covered while other guys (Vereen esp.) were open. This has been a growing concern since 2007. People mentioned that Brady relied too much on Moss and that he was trying to force the ball to Moss when Moss was covered. Back then, it didn't seem like Brady was forcing the ball to Welker because Welker was always open.

In all honesty, Brady has gotten away from what made him so successful in 2003 and 2004. In fact, it became cliche' to say "Who is Brady's favorite receiver? The open one." Brady would regularly have 6-8 different receivers with receptions. In the past few years, we'd be lucky if it was more than Welker, Hernandez, and Gronk.

I would have said that it was a function of the offense, but the AFCCG convinced me otherwise. Especially when Vereen was open on several different plays in a row out of the backfield and Brady threw to him twice with only one of the catchable. The other was thrown behind Vereen making it nearly impossible for him to catch.

Frankly, your post shows a real lack of understanding of the passing game.
The idea that Brady drops back and sees all 5 receivers simultaneously and chooses which one to throw to is way off the mark.

An NFL passing game is set up on progressions. The QB is given an order of who to throw to if open, and that order changes depending on the coverage. If the 5th option is wide open, but the first is open as well, you will be throwing to the first option. The job of the QB is to determine if the receiver is 'open enough' and that ability is probably the single most quality that makes Brady possibly the GOAT.
The numbers do not bear out your analysis either, as Brady has been more successful on passes to Welker than anyone who has ever played with him.
In other words, Brady does a tremendous job of deterining if Welker is 'open enough' and Welker does a tremendous job of getting open.

When your favorite receiver is 'the open one' you spread the ball around if none are good enough to get open a lot. If one gets open a lot, he gets a ton of throws. Brady never changed the philosophy, he was just given receivers who were 'the open one' a lot more often in Welker, Moss and Gronk.

The argument that could be made in regard to the topic you misanalayzed here is that the playcalling and scheme may have become too reliant on Welker, calling many plays where he was the primary read. Calling more plays that put him lower in the progression priority while putting players running deeper routes higher on the priority order would result in more throws down the field. If Welker is the #1 read on every pass play and gets open all the time, the scheme is saying overrely on Welker, not Brady.
Of course the rub is that reading deep to short makes the check down easier to cover because it is in a shorter area and develops and runs its course more quickly.
 
Been saying this forever, but got chastised by the homer brigade. This team will be better next year come playoff time, mark my words.
 
Been saying this forever, but got chastised by the homer brigade. This team will be better next year come playoff time, mark my words.

Well may I add if Gronk has 2 useable arms and 2 useable legs.

I still think we have 5 Super Bowls if he had been healthy to the end of the seasons.

I'm a bit worried that he may not come back the same player ... hope I am wrong.
 
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Sorry, Dagg, but Welker WAS Welker prior to getting into the Pats offense. Especially when you consider the horrible QBs he had throwing to him in Miami. I mean, let's be real. Duante Culpepper, Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon?

Sorry, that argument is incorrect.
The 2006 Dolphins completed 342 passes. It doesn't matter who was throwing them, they completed 342 of them (arguably Welker operating in the short area of the field would suggest he gets a higher percentage of catches from poor QBs) Welker caught 67 of them, just about 20%.

Dolphins 2006 67/342 less than 20%
Patriots 2007 112/403 just about 30%
Patriots 2008 111/339 just about 33%
Patriots 2009 123/390 over 30%
Patriots 2010 86/331 about 26% still well more than in Miami while recovering from knee reconstruction
Patriots 2011 122/402 over 30%
Patriots 2012 118/402 just under 30%
Patriot total 672/2267 just over 30%


So Welker in Miami caught 20% of the passes, in his best season. In NE he caught over 30%, which is more than a FIFTY PERCENT bigger impact.

No Welker wasn't anything near what he was in NE when he was in Miami.
 
The gap in the difference in the two offers is too narrow to lend credence to this theory (and it is a good one, by the way). The gap is so narrow that the only plausible answer is one of personal differences. I can only believe that Welker felt slighted.

Also if they were eager to avoid going Welker-centric, why go after a Welker-clone?

Amendola is not at all a Welker clone. He will do some of the things Welker did, but he is not a clone.

Personally, I would not be surprised to find out that Amendola plus what is left to come (and the accompanying shift to shifting Welker role across most of the receiving unit) and getting younger was plan A, and keeping Welker was plan B. Just because Welker to Denver was announced before Amendola to NE does not mean Welker was choice 1 and Amendola + the rest of the plan still to unfold was choice B.
 
Mack - not sure where you've been hiding out, but I'm not the first person to mention about Brady forcing the ball to either Moss or Welker.
And as we all know people on this board saying something does not mean it is right.

So, for you to say that it's just one example is just stupid since I clearly stated it's been happening since 2007....
But you are wrong to say that, based upon a poor understanding of how the passing game works, so its really irrelevant.

There are literally hundreds of football players who'd disagree with your assessment regarding Bill's people skills. Starting with Jim Brown.
You are correct here.


How do you know there will be no Patriots WR who can get as open or move the chains as well? Unless you can see the future, this is a SWAG on your part in some vain attempt to look smart.
Its a safe bet, and you can't really use the 'you can't see the future unless you refuse to analyze any move ever. But they do not need to replace Welker. The scheme will shift, and Welker's role will go away. It will be replaced by a larger role for other players, and the spreading of his targets across the offense. We will lose the value of having the best WR in the NFL at getting open, but the shift in scheme will make up for some of it, or at least diminish the loss. There is no certainty that he wouldn't have been diminished by age and wear and tear if he stayed.

You just don't know what will happen. Also, there is a good possibility that, if Gronk is healthy, he'll have as many 1st downs as Welker did. Gronk DID have 69 1st downs on 90 receptions in 2011, afterall.

There are plenty of weapons to spread to, but there are none that are as reliable at getting open as Welker was.
There is also the dynamic that the attention defenses paid to welker created more opportunity for other receivers so their job will get harder too.
 
Frankly, your post shows a real lack of understanding of the passing game.
The idea that Brady drops back and sees all 5 receivers simultaneously and chooses which one to throw to is way off the mark.

An NFL passing game is set up on progressions. The QB is given an order of who to throw to if open, and that order changes depending on the coverage. If the 5th option is wide open, but the first is open as well, you will be throwing to the first option. The job of the QB is to determine if the receiver is 'open enough' and that ability is probably the single most quality that makes Brady possibly the GOAT.
The numbers do not bear out your analysis either, as Brady has been more successful on passes to Welker than anyone who has ever played with him.
In other words, Brady does a tremendous job of deterining if Welker is 'open enough' and Welker does a tremendous job of getting open.

When your favorite receiver is 'the open one' you spread the ball around if none are good enough to get open a lot. If one gets open a lot, he gets a ton of throws. Brady never changed the philosophy, he was just given receivers who were 'the open one' a lot more often in Welker, Moss and Gronk.

The argument that could be made in regard to the topic you misanalayzed here is that the playcalling and scheme may have become too reliant on Welker, calling many plays where he was the primary read. Calling more plays that put him lower in the progression priority while putting players running deeper routes higher on the priority order would result in more throws down the field. If Welker is the #1 read on every pass play and gets open all the time, the scheme is saying overrely on Welker, not Brady.
Of course the rub is that reading deep to short makes the check down easier to cover because it is in a shorter area and develops and runs its course more quickly.

Andy, if a receiver is WIDE open, and Brady forces the ball to someone else how is that a good thing? I've seen Brady do it many times, and I can understand that he literally might not have seen the guy, but it happens eough to really make me wonder if he wasnt trying to help out his binkies.
 
Personally, I would not be surprised to find out that Amendola plus what is left to come (and the accompanying shift to shifting Welker role across most of the receiving unit) and getting younger was plan A, and keeping Welker was plan B. Just because Welker to Denver was announced before Amendola to NE does not mean Welker was choice 1 and Amendola + the rest of the plan still to unfold was choice B.

I agree completely. To take it a step further, I would not be surprised to learn that with the tag, the several slot-type WRs in TC and his "blacklisting" the first couple of games this year, they were quietly listening to offers.

Once the team discovered that the several slot-type WRs sucked, Edelman and AH got hurt, they needed to keep him.
 
Andy, if a receiver is WIDE open, and Brady forces the ball to someone else how is that a good thing? I've seen Brady do it many times, and I can understand that he literally might not have seen the guy, but it happens eough to really make me wonder if he wasnt trying to help out his binkies.

I'll say this much ... I went to 3 games this year and i was amazed at how much Brady locked onto a receiver almost from the snap. You don't see it on TV but at the game you see it. Brady going through his reads is a fallacy ... that was the old Brady ... the current Brady does that way less now. doesn't make Brady worse ... the numbers are still there for the most part. But ... would be interesting to see him get back to his older ways.
 
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Andy, if a receiver is WIDE open, and Brady forces the ball to someone else how is that a good thing? I've seen Brady do it many times, and I can understand that he literally might not have seen the guy, but it happens eough to really make me wonder if he wasnt trying to help out his binkies.

Again, in an NFL passing game you don't drop back and survey the field and all 5 receivers. You have a primary receiver. If he is open, you throw it. If he isn't you go the 2nd receiver and throw to him if he is open, the tne 3rd and so on.

If a receiver earlier in the progression is open, he will not see the guy later in the progression, nor will any other QB.

I don't know why you would wonder if that is a good thing or a bad thing, it is just the reality of the way it works.
 
Again, in an NFL passing game you don't drop back and survey the field and all 5 receivers. You have a primary receiver. If he is open, you throw it. If he isn't you go the 2nd receiver and throw to him if he is open, the tne 3rd and so on.

If a receiver earlier in the progression is open, he will not see the guy later in the progression, nor will any other QB.

I don't know why you would wonder if that is a good thing or a bad thing, it is just the reality of the way it works.


The younger Tom went through those reads quicker ... can we at least say that?

... or is this offense designed differently and times have changed?
 
Sorry dabruinz but wr are often products of the system Wes's stats are what they were Wes Welker NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

He will do very well in Denver but some places he just wouldn't have fit and would have never sniffed 112 catches due to system and qb combination. His stats look very amendolaish...before pats. I expect amendola to be around 90 or 100 catches very welkerish. Slightly less because Brady won't fall back on him quite as much as Wes.

Personally I like Wes and I think the 2mil is to small to throw out the chemistry Wes had with tb but I can also see the logic from a business pov vs a fans. We can agree to disagree.

Sorry, Dagg, but the least you could do is use the QUOTE button so people can reference what you are talking about.

Fact is that you are wrong and the Stats prove it. Welker, with garbage QBs in Miami (something you ignore) put up 67 receptions for 687 yards on 99 targets. If you extrapolate that out to the 145 targets he had in his 1st year as a Pat, then you get 98 receptions for 1006 yards... And that is with QBs who are throwing at a below 60% completion rating.
 
I'm just now getting online....what a freakin' day to be out of the loop.

It's obvious to me that BB was done with Welker moving forward....I've read through a few threads so far and my take is it's strictly a business decision...based on Welker's age and other factors not yet revealed, I'm guessing.

It hurts me as a fan because I love the little ba$tard but I've seen this before with this team and this head coach...I don't really care about "what's going to happen!!!!!!!?????"...I fell into that trap when Branch and Givens left. If this team is one thing, it's smart....it's cold, calculating and seemingly cruel at times, but one thing you can be sure about...this whole scenario that took place today was being planned even as last season was winding down. I thing Belichick gave Welker the tag last year to take one more shot with the offensive weapons they had...now it's a whole new ballgame...and I cannot wait to see how it turns out.

Welker will be fine in Denver...and he deserves AT LEAST that amount of money IMO so Peytie got himself a security blanket for cheap. I care as a fan but the Patriots sure as hell don't.
 
Andy, if a receiver is WIDE open, and Brady forces the ball to someone else how is that a good thing? I've seen Brady do it many times, and I can understand that he literally might not have seen the guy, but it happens eough to really make me wonder if he wasnt trying to help out his binkies.

That is what Andy decided to gloss over. When a QB is forcing the ball to a receiver, it means he's trying to get the ball to a receiver who is partially or totally covered. My understanding of the NFL passing game is that if your primary receiver is covered, you progress to the next receiver until you find one who is open and that is the one you hit with your pass. We saw that PLENTY of times when we had very good receivers in Branch, Givens, Brown and Patten. Not to mention Kevin Faulk.
 
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