The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Ian]

Then what was that all 2022 offseason with Tom House?

The word was that Jones was going to impove his arm. It did not happen and it makes no sense to imply that Jones arm is up to par. The Patriots avoided letting Jones throw deep after his ankle. Jones threw a tantrum in Minnesota screaming at Patricia about short passes.

Game 17 saw the Pat's let Jones throw deep and he added 3 more INTs.

His arm was absolutely better this year compared to year one, but he's not ever going to be Josh Allen or Justin Herbert. It's just not who he is.

And two of those three in Week 17 weren't exactly his fault. He threw to the endzone on a 3rd-and-19 play where they needed a touchdown, not a field goal. He made a decent throw to Henry where he kept it high where only Henry could get it, but it sailed a little high and went off Henry's fingertips.



The other just went off Damien Harris' hands:



The first one to Agholor was supposed to go like the one he threw in Pittsburgh, that one he didn't get enough arc on, so I guess you could make the argument there on that one being on him. Although looking at it now, he sort of slowed up and was interfered with...which I had forgotten about.



But that game, in retrospect - especially the first half - was a really good one for him and a reason to be somewhat optimistic on him heading into next year. Sort of crazy to think if you take away the 14 special teams TD points, he played well enough that it might have turned out differently.

 

[crawhammer]

Stevenson started for the first time in his short career because Harris got hurt... and you think that's what... irrelevant?

Irrelevant to what? It doesn't matter how his playing time came about, Stevenson blew expectations out of the water. He had an excellent season.

Meyers had 62 yards fewer than the year prior. Again, he was Mac's security blanket in the middle of the field and slot receiver is the focus of this offensive system. He wasn't better than the year prior despite being in a free agency year where players usually ball out.

He had fewer yards because he missed time and his targets were down by 30. So 30 fewer targets, but only 62 fewer yards. Your math doesn't compute. He also had a career high (by far) in TDs. Meyers is a good player coming off a good season, bring him back.

Bourne... funny how you didn't mention him? He had the best season of his entire career last season with Mac and McDaniels... this year he had the worst of his 3rd worst production of his entire career with Patricia.

Only because Patricia is a total jackass and Belichick allowed Bourne to be buried in the WR depth chart. For the most part Bourne was totally fine when given the opportunity. The coaching staff ****ed him over for probably some incredibly stupid reason.

The entire football watching world knows the Patriots coaching situation was a disaster... but here you are pretending it was normal so you can slam our players. Just admit you have a "Mac sucks" agenda and move on.

You're blatantly misstating my arguments. Which is an asinine move on your part.

Here, I'll quote myself to correct your horseshit...

We all agree BB made a huge mistake with Patricia, who no doubt ******ed Mac's development

Mac isn't hopeless, and I think O'Brien will provide a boost to the entire offensive operation

I don't think Mac sucks. He's had some really good moments and there's something there to build upon.

I think O'Brien will help Mac's development in this area.

 

[crawhammer]

This is what rebuilding from scratch looks like...

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

These guys undoubtedly sucked at their jobs the way BB sucks at his.

Again, clueless entitlement...

You're like working against your own argument (which apparently has something to do with protecting BB's legacy).

Those head coaches all took over teams in complete disarray. The Patriots were 12-4 in 2019 and had won their 11th division title in a row. They're 25-26 since then with 0 division titles and 1 playoff loss. You can't compare the Patriots current "rebuild" to any of the above rebuilds.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady got sacked 4 times, he threw two interceptions as a result of that pressure, he had a 56 QB Rating, Dave Gug's got fired after that postseason...

All the dancing in the world won't change what happened in that game. Brady didn't make his offensive line better, their line coach literally made Brady and his line look worse.

The final drive started with 1:52 left on the clock, even a drive that ended in a TD like their final drive did wouldn't give them a win. That's garbage time. Relying on an onside kick in the final seconds isn't part of the grand plan. You obviously didn't watch the game.

My God. Down 8 with 1:52 left (with Tom Brady at quarterback!) is garbage time? ************ don't ever consider becoming a football coach.

 

[Wozzy]

Irrelevant to what? It doesn't matter how his playing time came about, Stevenson blew expectations out of the water. He had an excellent season.


He had fewer yards because he missed time and his targets were down by 30. So 30 fewer targets, but only 62 fewer yards. Your math doesn't compute. He also had a career high (by far) in TDs. Meyers is a good player coming off a good season, bring him back.


Only because Patricia is a total jackass and Belichick allowed Bourne to be buried in the WR depth chart. For the most part Bourne was totally fine when given the opportunity. The coaching staff ****ed him over for probably some incredibly stupid reason.


You're blatantly misstating my arguments. Which is an asinine move on your part.

Here, I'll quote myself to correct your horseshit...

The way you blissfully tell us 2022 was normal Patriot offense then bend over backwards to call Patricia bad but you don’t see the irony or contradiction there is something to see.

The way you say Bourne played less and that’s why his production was down, but Rhamondre played substantially more but that wasn’t why his production was up… but you don’t see the hypocrisy there.

You’re bending yourself into pretzels to push a narrative… an agenda. And everyone here who doesn’t have a BB or Mac sucks agenda which mirrors yours sees this.

I don’t care where the Patriots better offense comes from, I don’t care if it’s Mac or Zappe… I liked them both exiting college. But stop pretending like you aren’t biased, it oozes out of every post of yours.

 

[Wozzy]

My God. Down 8 with 1:52 left (with Tom Brady at quarterback!) is garbage time? ************ don't ever consider becoming a football coach.

The Pats scored on their final drive… the Broncos got the ball back with 12 seconds on the clock and only had to run the clock out.

The Pats only hope at that point was an onside kick… was Tom Brady the kicker as well? You’re ridiculous…

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Allen was considered a universal bust by Bill's fans and media after his first two seasons. That doesn't change based on who he is now, or what you know now in hindsight.

And yes, you do sound like those Bill's fans but worse, with a Patriots slant on it... impatient and entitled. You've been sitting on the mountain top for so long, you forget or are too young to remember what rebuilding and developing young talent looks like... what the early 2000's looked like... or prior when Parcells was here. The Patriots made it look easy, but it wasn't. A lot of work went into it.

I'm not closing the door on Mac, but really, you just can't use Josh Allen here. Josh Allen was literally the most polarizing QB prospect in the last ten-plus years. If you haven't read up on him, go back and read his scouting/draft profiles. Tremendous boom-or-bust project who would take a few years to develop. Incredibly inaccurate and basically doesn't know how to play the position but has the most physical talent of any QB since John Elway, in terms of mobility, arm strength, size, strength, etc. Many people refused to even put Allen in their draftable QBs or acknowledge he belongs on an NFL roster. Others thought he should go #1 overall instead of Mayfield. So his progression was very well documented and well known...he would struggle and try to figure it out but had a very high ceiling.

Jones was the opposite. Ready to play, much lower ceiling. Has adequate arm strength to be a good player but isn't going to carry an offense without big advantages all-around.

For the record, I think the Jones pick as a good one. Most first round QBs are busts...that's just the way it is. Jones is probably going to be a mid-lower level starter or at worst a highly qualified backup QB. That's much better than most QBs coming out of the draft, especially the fifth one taken. He is already likely to have a better career than Fields, Wilson, and Lance The Patriots didn't give up their future to draft him. That said, I'm skeptical he's going to be a top 10 QB. It could happen, but you could make that same case for a number of other QBs who just need to improve in a few areas...easier said than done.

 

[crawhammer]

I mentioned this yesterday, but your argumentativeness and posts like this are what is going to do you in here. Looking at the ignored list (which has 1400+ users in it), you're shooting up that list faster than any user I've ever seen in a short period of time. You're already in the top 25, which is pretty mind-blowing out of that many people.

Where's this list? Sounds interesting.

Everyone's arguing. You overlook the bevy of insults I take on for holding an opinion. Whatever, I usually don't take it personally (unless my comments are being blatantly misstated), and I try to stay away from reciprocating in kind. I can't do anything about the ignore list. People can make whatever decisions they choose to "improve" their forum experience.

As a result, your stubbornness and need to always argue (you and I both know Y/R doesn't help any offensive player with low reception/yard totals, which are the numbers that matter) is going to leave you in an echo chamber at some point.

Not what I'm aiming toward but again some of it is out of my control. I try to back up my comments in the best way I know how. What else can I say.

Again, I know you know I've stuck up for you in the past, but it's not going well for you here at the rate you're going.

I appreciate every time you've stuck up for me. Sincerely. I think you're fair and I respect your advice and administration of the forum.

 

[Wozzy]

You're like working against your own argument (which apparently has something to do with protecting BB's legacy).

Those head coaches all took over teams in complete disarray. The Patriots were 12-4 in 2019 and had won their 11th division title in a row. They're 25-26 since then with 0 division titles and 1 playoff loss. You can't compare the Patriots current "rebuild" to any of the above rebuilds.

The Pats after 2019 were starting from scratch. They weren’t just trying to replace Brady, 12 starters or major contributors from the prior season were gone. A quarter of their cap was gone used on dead cap from going all in from 2014-2019. That was the end of the dynasty.

2020 was a cap clearing season, it was the first season of the rebuild that mirrors the greatest team builders in history’s first season. You don’t recognize this because you think QB’s have magic powers.

 

[Wozzy]

I'm not closing the door on Mac, but really, you just can't use Josh Allen here. Josh Allen was literally the most polarizing QB prospect in the last ten-plus years. If you haven't read up on him, go back and read his scouting/draft profiles. Tremendous boom-or-bust project who would take a few years to develop. Incredibly inaccurate and basically doesn't know how to play the position but has the most physical talent of any QB since John Elway, in terms of mobility, arm strength, size, strength, etc. Many people refused to even put Allen in their draftable QBs or acknowledge he belongs on an NFL roster. Others thought he should go #1 overall instead of Mayfield. So his progression was very well documented and well known...he would struggle and try to figure it out but had a very high ceiling.

Jones was the opposite. Ready to play, much lower ceiling. Has adequate arm strength to be a good player but isn't going to carry an offense without big advantages all-around.

For the record, I think the Jones pick as a good one. Most first round QBs are busts...that's just the way it is. Jones is probably going to be a mid-lower level starter or at worst a highly qualified backup QB. That's much better than most QBs coming out of the draft, especially the fifth one taken. He is already likely to have a better career than Fields, Wilson, and Lance The Patriots didn't give up their future to draft him. That said, I'm skeptical he's going to be a top 10 QB. It could happen, but you could make that same case for a number of other QBs who just need to improve in a few areas...easier said than done.

Why can’t we use Josh Allen again?

Oh yeah, because he’s an uncomfortable example that is entirely too relevant and recent.

Go look at Trevor Lawrence or Peyton Manning’s first seasons… then come up with an excuse for why we can’t use them for examples either.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

In the 2015 playoff game against Denver... Brady was sacked 4 times and threw two interceptions, the offense scored 18 points... 7 of which came in garbage time, in the last two minutes with the game already over. Brady made the offensive line better that game... laughable.

The final drive started with 1:52 left on the clock, even a drive that ended in a TD like their final drive did wouldn't give them a win. That's garbage time. Relying on an onside kick in the final seconds isn't part of the grand plan. You obviously didn't watch the game.

The Pats scored on their final drive… the Broncos got the ball back with 12 seconds on the clock and only had to run the clock out.

The Pats only hope at that point was an onside kick… was Tom Brady the kicker as well? You’re ridiculous…

You first stated that 7 points came in garbage time. Then you were informed that the TD was when they were down 20-12 with under 2 minutes left (in fact, the most important drive of the game.) You seem to be glossing over that the TD made it 20-18 and the Patriots had a 2-point conversion attempt to tie the game.

It bothers me less that you're wrong but that you'll go to such extreme word play to avoid acknowledging you made a mistake. It happens. Maybe you were thinking of 2013/14. But the final drive in Denver in the 2015/16 AFCCG, to cut the lead from 20-12 to 20-18 (with a 2 pt conversion attempt to tie) designated as "garbage time"? And then telling crawhammer he didn't watch the game?

Dude, be better than this.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Why can’t we use Josh Allen again?

The optimistic case for Mac Jones

Then what was that all 2022 offseason with Tom House? The word was that Jones was going to impove his arm. It did not happen and it makes no sense to imply that Jones arm is up to par. The Patriots avoided letting Jones throw deep after his ankle. Jones threw a tantrum in Minnesota screaming at...

www.patsfans.com

 

[crawhammer]

The Pats scored on their final drive… the Broncos got the ball back with 12 seconds on the clock and only had to run the clock out.

The Pats only hope at that point was an onside kick… was Tom Brady the kicker as well? You’re ridiculous…

Forget the onside kick, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Zero, zilch, nada.

This again is what YOU said...

the offense scored 18 points... 7 of which came in garbage time, in the last two minutes with the game already over

Down 8 (a TD and a 2-pt conversation) with 1:52 left (with Tom Brady, the all-time NFL leader in comebacks at quarterback) is NOT "garbage time" or "game over." They scored a TD and got within the 2-pt conversion. They barely missed sending the game in OT.

 

[Wozzy]

You first stated that 7 points came in garbage time. Then you were informed that the TD was when they were down 20-12 with under 2 minutes left (in fact, the most important drive of the game.) You seem to be glossing over that the TD made it 20-18 and the Patriots had a 2-point conversion attempt to tie the game.

The two point conversion failed and would have tied the game, not won the game. Did they have a chance, sure, none of which changes the fact Tom Brady got sacked 4 times, threw two interceptions or that he looked substantially worse because his offensive line coach didn’t anticipate crowd noise in Denver.

Go back and read the conversation, Tom was supposed to make his line better, the line made him worse. You’re entering a conversation at the end and missing entirely what’s being discussed.

 

[Wozzy]

Forget the onside kick, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Zero, zilch, nada.

This again is what YOU said...

Down 8 (a TD and a 2-pt conversation) with 1:52 left (with Tom Brady, the all-time NFL leader in comebacks at quarterback) is NOT "garbage time" or "game over." They scored a TD and got within the 2-pt conversion. They barely missed sending the game in OT.

Tom made his offensive line better, except when he didn’t. Stick to the topic.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The two point conversion failed and would have tied the game, not won the game. Did they have a chance, sure, none of which changes the fact Tom Brady got sacked 4 times, threw two interceptions or that he looked substantially worse because his offensive line coach didn’t anticipate crowd noise in Denver. Go back and read the conversation, Tom was supposed to make his line better, the line made him worse. You’re entering a conversation at the end and missing entirely what’s being discussed.

You're calling that a garbage time drive. It's not. No amount of misdirection, smoke and mirrors, and word salad changes that you were wrong and can't simply admit it. The Patriots were down 20-12 with 1:52 remaining in the fourth quarter and scored a touchdown to cut the lead to 20-18 with a chance to tie on the 2-pt conversion. No person on the planet besides you would call that a "garbage time" drive and make a case that the drive didn't really count because it was somehow less relevant or the defense allowed it because of "garbage time."

So pathetic that you can't just acknowledge you made a mistake, so you now you try to redirect this back to other topics. Do you have NPD?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Don't get me going on the 2015 season (that Belichick completely ruined).

This is not debatable.

The final drive started with 1:52 left on the clock, even a drive that ended in a TD like their final drive did wouldn't give them a win. That's garbage time. Relying on an onside kick in the final seconds isn't part of the grand plan. You obviously didn't watch the game.

That's not what garbage time is.

 

[Wozzy]

The optimistic case for Mac Jones

Then what was that all 2022 offseason with Tom House? The word was that Jones was going to impove his arm. It did not happen and it makes no sense to imply that Jones arm is up to par. The Patriots avoided letting Jones throw deep after his ankle. Jones threw a tantrum in Minnesota screaming at...

www.patsfans.com

Josh Allen isn’t a special case, innumerable QB’s and players take time to develop.

Also the same could be said about rookie players who arrive in the NFL and land in bad situations like the Patriots offense was in 2022.

You don’t like the Josh Allen example because he was arguably the best QB in the league all season after Mahomes… the list quickly changed once the results of the playoffs came in.

 

[Wozzy]

You're calling that a garbage time drive. It's not. No amount of misdirection, smoke and mirrors, and word salad changes that you were wrong and can't simply admit it. The Patriots were down 20-12 with 1:52 remaining in the fourth quarter and scored a touchdown to cut the lead to 20-18 with a chance to tie on the 2-pt conversion. No person on the planet besides you would call that a "garbage time" drive and make a case that the drive didn't really count because it was somehow less relevant or the defense allowed it because of "garbage time."

So pathetic that you can't just acknowledge you made a mistake, so you now you try to redirect this back to other topics. Do you have NPD?

Fine… they had a ass hairs chance of winning.

How does that change the topic of the discussion that Brady got sacked 4 times, threw two interceptions as a result of his line coach not anticipating crowd noise or having his unit prepared to use the silent count?

It doesn’t. Brady didn’t make his line look better, they made him look worse.

This was true about the entirety of his career, it’s always a team sport. You’re more incensed I pointed out a game where Brady looked mortal because your a Tom superfan and any implication he’s human is too much to handle.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Josh Allen isn’t a special case, innumerable QB’s and players take time to develop.

Also the same could be said about rookie players who arrive in the NFL and land in bad situations like the Patriots offense was in 2022.

You don’t like the Josh Allen example because he was arguably the best QB in the league all season after Mahomes… the list quickly changed once the results of the playoffs came in.

Hey, who needs facts when you can just go off of what Wozzy says. Of course he isn't a special case...just the most polarizing player in the draft and universally regarded as a boom or bust with few historic comparisons.

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