The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[archstanton543]

Bill's penchant for dumping superior talent to save money combined with his less than stellar drafts lately has me less optimistic.

Other than Brady what other superior talent did BB dump to save money that went on to have massive success elsewhere?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Other than Brady what other superior talent did BB dump to save money that went on to have massive success elsewhere?

I'll hang up and listen.

Please dont' bait @1960Pats into another rant.

 

[Kasmir]

Mac is a good check down dink and dunker. Thats his A game in the NFL where everyone is fast and good. At Alabama he could excel because he was surrounded by top round NFL talent. 8 Alabama players were picked within the first 38 selections of the 2021 NFL draft. Corky included.

Tua ended up being a pretty decent QB this year at Miami despite the concussions, 2nd in DVOA and 4th in DYAR. He and Mac had literally the same teammates in 2019 (when Mac came in after Tua was hurt) and Mac had nearly the same weapons in 2020. I'll leave it to the Alabama contingent here to evaluate the two QB's relative play there, but at the least Mac got comparable results to Tua so would likely also have done well at Miami this year.

 

[Tunescribe]

When I see Mac have velocity on his throws and I don’t have to hold my breath every time he throws to the sideline anticipating a pick 6.
Then in will believe he can be the guy.

But bro, he had that one ball that had zip on it and it was in a tight window. Video evidence.

Is this good enough to win a world title?
Is this good enough to win more than 1 playoff game.
When we are behind 20 points in the third is the other team nervous because number 10 is back there.
If the answer is no, then you keep trying til you find that guy.
Mac is a expendable employee.

No

There was like 8 or 9 bigtime throws on a rope. Plus, BOB will call plays in 2023 where the ball is perfect everytime.

Mac is a good check down dink and dunker. Thats his A game in the NFL where everyone is fast and good. At Alabama he could excel because he was surrounded by top round NFL talent. 8 Alabama players were picked within the first 38 selections of the 2021 NFL draft. Corky included.

He is a Game Manager type thats happy to get a Field Goal from a drive. For the Pats to have any chance at all there must be a good run game and defense which the Pats have had since Jones was drafted. The problem isnt the OC because Jones did not execute the plays that were there for the taking in 2022. For instance, the INT that should have been TD to Parker @ Miami. That was a TD if the ball is thrown in front of Parker instead of behind Parker. The exact same short arm throw was made to Agholor in the 2021 postseason game vs Buffalo. That should have been a TD as well. Jones short armed a throw to Agholor vs Pittsburgh in 2022 only this time Agholor fought off the DB and came down the ball resulting in a TD.

I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.

You guys might like football but you don't understand what you're watching. The quarterback doesn't operate in a vacuum, how people perform around him matters, coaching matters.

 

[Rob0729]

Mac is a good check down dink and dunker. Thats his A game in the NFL where everyone is fast and good. At Alabama he could excel because he was surrounded by top round NFL talent. 8 Alabama players were picked within the first 38 selections of the 2021 NFL draft. Corky included.

He is a Game Manager type thats happy to get a Field Goal from a drive. For the Pats to have any chance at all there must be a good run game and defense which the Pats have had since Jones was drafted. The problem isnt the OC because Jones did not execute the plays that were there for the taking in 2022. For instance, the INT that should have been TD to Parker @ Miami. That was a TD if the ball is thrown in front of Parker instead of behind Parker. The exact same short arm throw was made to Agholor in the 2021 postseason game vs Buffalo. That should have been a TD as well. Jones short armed a throw to Agholor vs Pittsburgh in 2022 only this time Agholor fought off the DB and came down the ball resulting in a TD.

I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.

You Mac Haters need to get your story straight You say he is a check down QB Another Mac Hater will say if Mac’s first read isn’t open he doesn‘t go through his progressions and just forces the pass or takes the sack. So Mac is so bad that he is a check down QB who cannot check down and never does.

 

[Rob0729]

Bill O'Brien had mediocre offenses in Houston and never averaged more than 25 points per game during his stint. He had Watson from 2017 through 4 games in 2020 before getting fired.

Alabama fans were glad he left.

Mac doesn't have anywhere near the talent Watson had and the current skill position players in NE isn't good. Some of you guys are in real denial of expectations for this team going forward.

Bryce Young loves Bill O’Brien. The fact is Bama didn’t have the talent they are used to having around the QB last year. Other than Young, I don’t think there is a single offense player from Bama expected to go in the first round. When was the last time a Bama WR or tackle wasn’t selected in the first round? No need to look it up. It was 2017.

And let’s face it, even if Bama had a historically good offense and still didn’t win a Championship while O’Brien was OC, Bama fans would still hate O’Brien. They are some of the most spoiled and entitled fans in the country.

In 2010, the Patriots had the best scoring offense in the NFL. They scored 4.8 more points a game than the #2 team.

And don’t forget that in Houston, O’Brien had mediocre QBs until midway through the 2017 season (Watson only played the last seven games).

And he made Penn a competitive team despite being stripped of almost all of their scholarships.

 

[JR52]

You Mac Haters need to get your story straight You say he is a check down QB Another Mac Hater will say if Mac’s first read isn’t open he doesn‘t go through his progressions and just forces the pass or takes the sack. So Mac is so bad that he is a check down QB who cannot check down and never does.

Conflating check down with first read is....odd?

 

[Vindicate]

it has nothing to do w anti-BB or pro Zappe. if you have eyes and a brain you could tell Jones can be, at the very least, an adequate NFL starter who can win (and maybe more importantly NOT LOSE games for the club) when surrounded by competent coaching and NFL skill position talent.
The coaching needs to be more play to win than play not to lose, as it was most of last year when we had certain people on here circle jerking FOLK!!! and his field goals

It is an interesting thing to wonder: the dichotomy between "conservative playcalling", which seems to be the game plan you start from with a QB who isn't a world-beater (Alex Smith type), and "playing not to lose."

Which, whatever that dichotomy is, to your point, needs to be delineated and understood first and foremost by the coaches.

I personally don't think it can all be reduced to that, but that doesn't mean I don't think that the coaching takes most of the blame for last year. Ironically, it wasn't necessarily with the offense that was the most glaring example - it was special teams. Holyshit they were bad.

 

[lancerman]

Other than Brady what other superior talent did BB dump to save money that went on to have massive success elsewhere?

I'll hang up and listen.

Chandler Jones was extremely successful in Arizona had 2 first team All Pros, was largely considered one of the best pass rushers in the latter half of the 2010's. Led the league in Sacks one year and Forced Fumbles another. If they kept him, I could see that being the difference in the Eagles Super Bowl

 

[lancerman]

Some Boston sports fans love being miserable. Some fell hard for Zappe last year and it clouds their judgement.

Some are a combination of both.

The Zappe thing might be the biggest because let's be real, Zappe has a significantly worse arm than Mac, so it's kinda suspect to criticize Mac for that and then say we should give Zappe a start.

But like I said, this has shades of the 2020 Stidham love. Very little to do with the actual talent of the player and more to do with people not liking the product on the field and desperately looking for a quick fix.

People should probably except the team as a whole from the coaching to the offensive talent was very poor last year and Mac was just one piece of it and not the main reason

 

[archstanton543]

Chandler Jones was extremely successful in Arizona had 2 first team All Pros, was largely considered one of the best pass rushers in the latter half of the 2010's. Led the league in Sacks one year and Forced Fumbles another. If they kept him, I could see that being the difference in the Eagles Super Bowl

One guy outside of Brady in 20+ years is hardly a track record.

 

[Ring 6]

Why would any Pats fan hate a positive article about Jones?

You must not spend much time here.

 

[1960Pats]

Other than Brady what other superior talent did BB dump to save money that went on to have massive success elsewhere?

I'll hang up and listen.

Thuney and Gronk right off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others. Of course that depends on what you think is massive success. For me it means that the player they dumped over money was better than the player they kept.

Edit: I'll have to look up players on both sides of that discussion and see which list is longer.

 

[archstanton543]

Thuney and Gronk right off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others.

Edit: Now that I'm done with the NYFL I'll have to look up players on both sides of that discussion and see which list is longer.

Gronk is a different case since he unretired and was traded. There was no way for the Pats to retain him.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I’m giving Mac another season. His first was a really good rookie season. Obviously, His second was a huge let down. Lot of variables played into it as we all know. Patricia was a disaster, oline was pathetic and barely gave enough time for a second read at times.

His arm strength/touch on the short sideline throws were very evident last season. That needs to improve if he is going to make it in this league. Hopefully the new strength coach is helping him with that.

Excited to see if he can turn it around.

 

[catent]

Yet again, I am mind-boggled at the claim Zappe has a “significantly” weaker arm than Mac.

Really?

 

[catent]

The Zappe thing might be the biggest because let's be real, Zappe has a significantly worse arm than Mac, so it's kinda suspect to criticize Mac for that and then say we should give Zappe a start.

But like I said, this has shades of the 2020 Stidham love. Very little to do with the actual talent of the player and more to do with people not liking the product on the field and desperately looking for a quick fix.

People should probably except the team as a whole from the coaching to the offensive talent was very poor last year and Mac was just one piece of it and not the main reason

To clarify why I disagree with this.

I disagree that Zappe has a significantly worse arm than Mac.

I also disagree that Zappe is anywhere near Stidham. Zappe actually played in and started meaningful games, and produced statistically (and to the eye) at a much higher level than Stidham ever did, with a relatively larger (albeit still small overall) sample size.

 

[TheRainMaker]

We had receivers running into each other, running the same routes. Coaches who ran a "Madden playbook" didn't adjust for what the other team did. Didn't even coach play action schemes

And this is your take? O'Brien sucks? I think our expectation is if we have a real OC running a real NFL offense we will at the very least look like 2021. A year Mac had 22 tds and was a promising rookie and we made the playoffs.

On the flip side of that O’Brien unleashed the 2 TE set that took the league by storm in 2011 and gave Brady his first 5K+ yard passing season and the Patriots to a top 3 offense. Obviously we don’t have the caliber of TEs now that we do then but I’m confident we’ll have an offense that plays to everyone’s strengths.

Even with the talent Bill had, he still ran into roadblocks 3 consecutive years in a row where the offense crapped out in the playoffs. He had no answer to the Ravens in 2009, got his pants dropped by Rex Ryan in 2010, and took his foot off the gas in the 2011 Super Bowl up 17-9 with all the momentum on their side. That was with the GOAT QB and the emerging Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Branch and the rest of the cast.

Then with Houston he gave up a 24-0 lead to the Chiefs in the Divisional Round and was outscored 51-7.

To think he can duplicate what he did with Tom and the others is laughable. I mean, he had plenty of time in Houston right?

Although it's an extremely lazy hire by Bill/Kraft, O'Brien will certainly help - but he's not the answer. In fact, we shouldn't hear anymore complaints by Kraft as this is what he wanted.

 

[TheRainMaker]

He is a Game Manager type thats happy to get a Field Goal from a drive.

And posters were celebrating that this year - especially an ex mod.

Mac is a good check down dink and dunker. Thats his A game in the NFL where everyone is fast and good.

That's just what he is. Pats have to build around his limitations and get players who can take shorter passes and make defenders miss.

The problem isnt the OC because Jones did not execute the plays that were there for the taking in 2022. For instance, the INT that should have been TD to Parker @ Miami. That was a TD if the ball is thrown in front of Parker instead of behind Parker. The exact same short arm throw was made to Agholor in the 2021 postseason game vs Buffalo. That should have been a TD as well. Jones short armed a throw to Agholor vs Pittsburgh in 2022 only this time Agholor fought off the DB and came down the ball resulting in a TD.

Of course every team will have plays that can be had, but the OC might have been the worst we've seen in the NFL for a very...very long time. It's pretty rare to see plays designs so bad that players are running into each other and when players are open - they aren't because there's another receiver running in the area bringing a defender with them.

For the Pats to have any chance at all there must be a good run game and defense which the Pats have had since Jones was drafted.

The defense was good until they played a competent offense. Since 2020, they have a 10-20 record against teams .500 and above and 4 straight years of a losing record in December.

In 2010, the Patriots had the best scoring offense in the NFL. They scored 4.8 more points a game than the #2 team.

He was no match for Rex Ryan.

And don’t forget that in Houston, O’Brien had mediocre QBs until midway through the 2017 season (Watson only played the last seven games).

He's got one now.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

We need to hope in Mac... We don't have anything else. Give him one more year before starting over with another guy