The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[Observer]

This isn't a case of not being able to fire 53 players, so you fire the coach. This is an assistant. You don't fire them because the players they're trying to coach are a bunch of stiffs. Firing an assistant who's not doing a bad job doesn't show accountability. It shows scapegoating. It's just "fire the offensive coordinator!" on a lower level.

In other words, it's really, really, really stupid.

Correct. Boyer teaches what bb teaches him to teach. There is no grounds for firing him. Only thing to do is for Kraft/bb to hire a seasoned defensive assistant that has a fresh perspective (and listen to him)

 

[ATippett56]

Quentin Jammer,Sam Shields or Brent Grimes would be nice vets to add next year for help in the secondary

Quentin Jammer will turn 34 years of age in June, 2013.

Quentin Jammer NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[Big-T]

At safety,Jairus Byrd would be my choice,Ed Reed might retire and Revis isn't leaving NY

Kenny Phillips might be another I would look at

Safeties that would be worth a looks:
Ed Reed (likely retire or stay in Baltimore)
Kenny Phillips
Dashon Goldson
Jairus Byrd
Kerry Rhodes
Ryan Mundy

Corners worth looking at:
Marcus Trufant
Quentin Jammer
Brent Grimes
Chris Houston
Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter

and CB/S...Charles Woodson.

Didn't put Revis because he would cost too much/NYJetscap still has him as a Jets player next season.

 

[ROHAN KLEMM]

Can we kick the field goal at the end of the half? 6 seconds is awfully risky.

2 main concerns with pass coverage.

1. As always - Lack of consistent pass rush. Once in a while you see a flash, (Jones) then nothing. This is the most important area of football and needs to be addressed.
This has been a recording.


2. I don't know the injury situation but can the Pats put out the same DB's in the same position. I see Arrington, Dennard, Mccourty, Moore, Dowling and even Cole at CB at various times in the same game. Did I see our latest #2 pick (Wilson) at CB on the Seattle game winner? Also, Pats do not have great size at Safety with Chung (Good hitter but a shoulder injury waiting to happen) and Gregory (hustler but mediocore). I would like to see Dennard and Dowling at CB, Arrington - Slot CB and Chung, McCourty at safety. Please pick a line-up and land it.

3. I did not like the Wilson #2 pick then or now - Casey Hayward looked very athletic and strong vs Houston. The board was wide open at the Wilson slot.

Sooner or later the Pats will pay for their quantity over quality drafts.

Did Vereen lose his eligiblity and where is the WR depth.

Can the Pats find out if Vereen, Dowling, Beckette, Wilson can play. They were high picks, so there must have been some conviction in the draft room. Can we have been wrong on all these guys? To say nothing of Merriweather, Butler, Brace, Cunningham etc.

Pats will be OK due to weak AFC but will always struggle vs physical NFC Type teams. Thanks for the Bills, Dolphins and Jets twice every year.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Safeties that would be worth a looks:
Ed Reed (likely retire or stay in Baltimore)
Kenny Phillips
Dashon Goldson
Jairus Byrd
Kerry Rhodes
Ryan Mundy

Corners worth looking at:
Marcus Trufant
Quentin Jammer
Brent Grimes
Chris Houston
Mike Jenkins
Tracy Porter

and CB/S...Charles Woodson.

Didn't put Revis because he would cost too much/NYJetscap still has him as a Jets player next season.

A lot of good talent on that list...other than Reed or Revis,the team would be ******ed not to add one or more of these guys.

Gregory is a JAG,I don't see him here more than this year.

 

[aluminum seats]

Again, I asked for your case. You're trying to switch it around. I understand, though, since you don't actually have a case.

As for Eugene Wilson, the man broke body parts in 2 straight Super Bowls and wasn't the same afterwards. However, in case you didn't realize this, and this is important, so I'll put it in caps just for you......

BOYER WASN'T THE DB COACH FOR WILSON. This helps my point, and undercuts yours.

I asked you to make a case because you've failed woefully to do so. As for Wilson, I never said the problem started with Boyer--it's been ongoing for some time now.

But considering how you're cursing and shouting in caps, it does appear as if a full mental breakdown is imminent for you. So that'll be fun to see at least.

 

[Spergon Wynn]

I think it's become pretty clear that this is a scheme/coaching problem. It seems like no matter who they put where in the secondary, it's the same result.

 

[Big-T]

To further add to the list of free agents available, adding to the DL would help improve the secondary too with such players available as...
Alan Branch DT (good run stuffer for the Seahawks)
Aubreyo Franklin DT (good nose, would allow Wilfork to get more rest)
Richard Seymour - DT (imagine getting him back for a decent price!)
Isaac Sopoaga - DT (beast against the run)
Osi Umenyiora - DE (pair him with Jones and there's some good pass rush)
Kyle Williams - DT (good interior rusher for the Bills)
Cliff Avril - DE (looking to get paid, a bit inconsistent)
Dwight Freeney - DE (bit small but can get to the QB)

A lot of good run stuffers where the Patriots are pretty loaded so pick up the more pass rush orientated players from there to help.

The cap situation is pretty good too per nyjetscap: 99.1m with 9.3m available from this year to carry over too, which means 30.4m to play with to resign Welker, Vollmer, Woodhead & Edelman, pay draft picks and spend in free agency.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is an interesting argument. Does the absence of players who performed well outside NE mean that the issue is player selection, not player coaching?

I don't think it's proof of anything, but I do think it undercuts the "It's the coaches, the talent is fine!" argument.

However, when you broaden the range beyond DB, there are few other cases you can compare. Samuel is about the only player, at DB or anywhere else, who has really performed well outside NE.

While there's a lot of truth to what you're saying this is also a bit misleading. Seymour was very good for a couple of years in Oakland. Cassel was very good in 2010. Spires went on to have a solid career in Tampa, etc....

Also, most players who get cut, get cut for a reason. The Danny Woodheads are the exceptions, not the rule.

Can you think of OL that performed well elsewhere? Maroney didn't succeed outside NE. BJGE looks to have regressed. Outside Branch none of the "New England" wide receivers played well elsewhere - only the guys who spent a season here 5-6 years into their careers, but not the Taylor Price/Chad Jackson's.

The Patriots keep their good O-linemen, so it's not a surprise that we don't see a lot of them moving on and succeeding. BJGE was never a great RB, and Maroney was banged up and seems to have mentally checked out as well. As you note, the receivers have done nothing.

So what does that really demonstrate, then, if few of the corners or safeties succeeded elsewhere?

I think we see this:

Patriots draft/acquire specifically for their team rather than for general talent and often for specific roles, which is why so many low round/UDFA players stick around, and so many high round busts fail when they move elsewhere in the league.

Patriots keep most, though not all, of the players still getting it done.

All we know is that the team has been able to develop a QB, a number of OL, TE's, small number of receivers, good DL, some LB's, but very few DB's. With similar 'raw material' the team has succeeded at other positions, but not DB.

I don't think that the raw material has been anywhere near similar, because I think you need a whole different viewpoint when you're looking at defensive secondary players. Top corners and safeties tend to be taken high, while non-left tackle-O-linemen are often found in the lower rounds because of draft priorities.

I also think that BB has struggled to decide what the hell he's looking for in his DBs post 2004 rules changes.

 

[Deus Irae]

I asked you to make a case because you've failed woefully to do so. As for Wilson, I never said the problem started with Boyer--it's been ongoing for some time now.

But considering how you're cursing and shouting in caps, it does appear as if a full mental breakdown is imminent for you. So that'll be fun to see at least.

Keep clowning yourself. You asked me to make a case, even though I've already made one, because you've got nothing.

And the all-caps was so you'd pay attention, as I noted before doing it. You're talking about firing Boyer, but you're bringing up players he had nothing to do with.

That's pathetic, frankly.

 

[rojo8401]

As you noted, Hobbs retired due to injury
Wilson was never the same after that second Super Bowl injury
Meriweather was benched in Chicago
Gay had lost his starting job, and had to retire due to concussions
Butler is only playing due to injury
Wheatley only played in one game after leaving the Patriots, and is out of football
Sanders is a backup/depth guy in Arizona

So, the only player who's gone on to have good results post-NE, be it because of injury or other issue, is Samuel.

I didn't like the way the got rid of Meriweather and Sanders last year, and I stand by that, but it's not as if either of them has lit the world on fire.

• Gay, Sanders, Meriweather, Wilson and Hobbs have all proven that they can play in the NFL.
  
• I would argue that Sanders had a nice year last year.
  
• Hobbs was good in Philly before injuries took him out.
  
• Same for Wilson.
  
• Same for Gay.
  
• I thought Wheatley was still playing. Mea culpa.

You can't discount these players because injuries shortened their careers. I mean you can, but that wouldn't be relevant to their talent levels.

 

[ROHAN KLEMM]

Very astute point especially coming from a former Brown draft choice.

Wynn has also played for the Amsterdam Admirals, Minnesota Vikings, BC Lions, Winnipeg Blue Bombers and Toronto Argonauts. Too bad he was gone when we used our draft pick on that stiff from Michigan. I guess we can forgive the Pats for all their recent draft shortcomings.

I do believe we have enough decent personnel in the Secondary. Please - no overpriced, coming off surgery, free agents, although I would take a big tough safety in the draft. No, not you, Taylor Mays.

 

[aluminum seats]

Keep clowning yourself. You asked me to make a case, even though I've already made one, because you've got nothing.

And the all-caps was so you'd pay attention, as I noted before doing it. You're talking about firing Boyer, but you're bringing up players he had nothing to do with.

That's pathetic, frankly.

Wow, you're going completely off the rails now. Maybe you're losing the thread of this argument? You know, because you have so many different ones going on.

The Pats secondary coaching has been sub-par for some time. The current "coach" in this area is Boyer. Belichick should replace him.

Why don't you take a little break, get some fresh air, and come back with something coherent to say? Just trying to help you out here.

 

[groundgame]

Ellis Hobbs, Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Terrence Wheatley all went on to play for other teams with mostly good results........

NITPICKER NOTES: 1. Hobbs retired due to injury 2. Butler is playing for the Colts as their nickel (albeit due to injuries) 3. Wheatley is a bum (although still employed in the NFL).

You have to exclude Samuel, as his moving-on was a financial, not talent move. Of the remaining list of former DB's you cite as playing mostly good, after their stay in New England (remember these are the best of approx. 40 defensive backs): Hobbs, Wilson, Butler, Meriweather and Wheatley- all at best adequate or below, just making the roster (C to D) NFL players; with Gay and Sanders (B-) the "stand-outs".

 

[Deus Irae]

• Gay, Sanders, Meriweather, Wilson and Hobbs have all proven that they can play in the NFL.
  
• I would argue that Sanders had a nice year last year.
  
• Hobbs was good in Philly before injuries took him out.
  
• Same for Wilson.
  
• Same for Gay.
  
• I thought Wheatley was still playing. Mea culpa.

You can't discount these players because injuries shortened their careers. I mean you can, but that wouldn't be relevant to their talent levels.

Wait..... I was using your parameters, and that was 'good results' after leaving New England.

Hobbs only played 16 more games, in 2 injury-shortened seasons, and he wasn't a starter in half of them.

Gay went from a decent money contract to a guy who lost his starting job, starting 13 out of 14 in his first year for the Saints, but then only 7 of 14 games the following year. He had to retire at age 28, but he'd already lost his starting job.

Wilson was in clear decline in New England, probably due as much to becoming a bit contact shy as anything. He was no great shakes for the Texans, either, although he seemed to get more comfortable for a little while.

As for Sanders, well, there's a reason the Falcons didn't bring him back.

Of that entire group, the closest I'd look at for having a good post-Patriots career would be Wilson, and that's because he'd fallen so far down in New England that for him to stay as a starter in the league for another 3 years is arguably a good outcome, regardless of his level of play.

I agree that the notion that Patriots players can't play any longer after leaving New England is overblown, and I think these are examples that help to show that, even with shortened careers and middling success. Still, none of them showed any significant improvement that could be attributed to coaching after moving on, and isn't that what's at issue here?

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow, you're going completely off the rails now. Maybe you're losing the thread of this argument? You know, because you have so many different ones going on.

The Pats secondary coaching has been sub-par for some time. The current "coach" in this area is Boyer. Belichick should replace him.

Why don't you take a little break, get some fresh air, and come back with something coherent to say? Just trying to help you out here.

I'm fine. Your argument is just a really silly one, and has no specifically applicable facts in favor of it. So, since you've shown that you don't really have an argument beyond post-loss petulance, and that you have nothing rational to base that petulance on, I'll consider that good enough.

 

[nekromantique]

the secondary hasnt changed for the most part, neither have the coaches. why people thought there would be a dramatic change is kind of funny.

the run defense improved towards the end of last year, and the rookies drafted to the front seven have helped it even more.

so far, the changes worth noting in the secondary are dennard and wilson. i think most would agree that dennard has looked pretty good in his LIMITED time and that wilson has been pretty good but not AMAZING (some blown coverages, rookie mistakes).

Arrington still isnt great (slot corner at best playing #2). McCourty has been better this year than last but has lapses and displays poor techniques that harken back to last year. Inconsistency is the problem there, not particularly talent. Dowling doesnt play. Whether injury had a huge role in that i dont know. Moore wasnt great last year, he was able to get away with stuff after the fact by making plays.

Ebner is a special teams player who is a defensive PROJECT.

I will say this. bad coaching can ruin a player, but i believe its a bit of both. arrington and moore are exposed alot. wilson and chung make poor decisions (wilson less so, and regardless hes a rookie). McCourty plays really well at times and really bad at times. Dennard has looked solid.

id say that mccourty and dennard have the most talent (watching college and pro stuff). Wilson has good versatility and is good in that nickel or dime role, but i dont know about a full time starter (maybe this year since safety is a big issue), the other subpar (excluding dowling because i dont know)

 

[aluminum seats]

I'm fine. Your argument is just a really silly one, and has no specifically applicable facts in favor of it. So, since you've shown that you don't really have an argument beyond post-loss petulance, and that you have nothing rational to base that petulance on, I'll consider that good enough.

I think you're referring to your petulance and sputtering like SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS and using such sophisticated bon mots as "talking out of your ass."

But since you're well-known around here (comically) as one who has little to do except post nonsensical "thoughts" until others are well-past tired of it, I'll leave you to the multitude of other arguments you no doubt have going. You're like the drunk uncle of the board.

But good luck coming up with a point sometime!

 

[PromisedLand]

And my grunting about the secondary after this game is much more about the coaching and situational football.

Forget everything up to the end of the game.
There's one minute left.
The other team has to score.

You put a defense in position to, number one, prevent the long pass.
You field a defense with that in mind.
You tell them, don't let anyone get behind you.
You call a defensive set that takes away the long pass.

Instead, they put Ebner in at safety. We know McCourty was called into the safety position last year when Ihedigbo and Brown struggled. We know Sterling Moore has played safety. Instead, it's another ST type, highly inexperienced rookie.

They could have had Dowling or Moore. Or Arrington. I don't care if they struggled earlier in the game. If you asked me who I would rather have on hail Mary protection, any of those corners would have been higher on the list than Ebner. This is a situation where you might even want a receiver deep in the secondary, like they used to use Moss (although granted Lloyd was on the bench injured), Brown, or Edelman.

We know the Patriots have worked on a big nickel package, but they went with the base defense.

Then the safeties bit on the run action while the corners passed the receivers off to the safeties and covered the intermediate zone.

The coaching on that play was explicitly: stop the run and short pass first. Let them try to go deep if they want. But every Patriots defender went short. With a minute left, give them the short run. Give them the middle of the field. Make the QB nervous just managing a 45 yard drive in a minute.

That was a rare failure of coaching. The defense had the wrong personnel for the situation. The defensive play call, with the corners passing off the receivers, was wrong. The reaction, with the safeties playing the run first when the corners were passing off the downfield receivers, was wrong.

I don't know exactly where the blame rests between wrong package, wrong call, and wrong reaction. But two of the three are directly coaching decisions, and the third should have been the sole coaching point of emphasis.

Excellent post. Thank you.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you're referring to your petulance and sputtering like SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS and using such sophisticated bon mots as "talking out of your ass."

But since you're well-known around here (comically) as one who has little to do except post nonsensical "thoughts" until others are well-past tired of it, I'll leave you to the multitude of other arguments you no doubt have going. You're like the drunk uncle of the board.

But good luck coming up with a point sometime!

You keep posting nonsense. Congratulations on that, I guess. And the irony of you telling anyone "good luck coming up with a point sometime" makes this whole thing worthwhile.